Religious Wars
Posted on: February 18, 2007 - 5:39pm
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Religious Wars
Here is a quote from a friend of mine.
I would like to know if there is a lick of truth to this:
"Bloodiest war in American history, have you heard of it? The Civil war. Was it fought by religious extremists? No.
Vietnam, religion?
Korea, religion?
World War II, religion?
World War I, religion?
Spanish American War, religion?
War of 1812, religion?
American Revolution, religion?
Darfur, religion?
If you answered no to all of these, you are right. Religion didn't play a role in any of these wars. Religion is not dangerous. People are. There is a huge difference."
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todangst(note, im with you on this thread, im just pointed something out), maybe the soviets didn't achieve true communism, but did you look at the aztecs? its not the same exact idea as the soviets, but they had a very close system.
So are the facts.
They couldn't. They had a state. Communism is stateless. The soviet union was socialist, not communist. Communism was a hazy goal for a distant future.
I'm really not looking to delve any further into communism....
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
Tod did you even read you wiki that had to do with Poland, well here is the order Hitler gave his army and its right from the article you cited:
"with orders for them to send to death mercilessly and without compassion, men, women, and children of Polish race and language".
Where in here did you see Hitler invading to kill the Jews, it doesnt. As a matter of fact the second sentence in the article states that"three million non-jewish ethnic poles were killed". So when I say that Hitler did not invade other countries to eliminate the Jews I am right.
THats all I have time to respond to now but rest assured I will answer almost all of your post. So stay tuned.
Slavery was the big driving issue behind the American Civil War. You don't have to look very far to find that the South used the bible to justify slavery.
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Yeah, I agree. I said so a bit downthread...hadn't read your post yet.
Books on atheism, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.
Did you? Obviously not.
ARE YOU REALLY UNAWARE OF THE FINAL SOLUTION?
ARE YOU REALLY UNAWARE OF THE CONCENTRATION CAMPS?
I cannot fucking believe I have to point this out to you.
Here are some points about the camps from the link:
Auschwitz became the main concentration camp for Poles after the arrival there, on June 14, 1940, of 728 men transported from an overcrowded prison at Tarnów. By March 1941, 10,900 prisoners were registered at the camp, most of them Poles. In September 1941, 200 ill prisoners, most of them Poles, along with 650 Soviet POWs, were killed in the first gassing experiments at Auschwitz. Beginning in 1942, Auschwitz's prisoner population became much more diverse, as Jews and other "enemies of the state" from all over German-occupied Europe were deported to the camp
And why do you think specifically say NON jewish ethnic poles in the first place?
Think about it... mull it over in your brain... go on...
Here's why: because while the Nazis wanted to Germanize Polad, the Nazis were mainly out to kill Jews of any kind. They wanted to eliminate them all. They wanted to eliminate all of Europe's jewish population. That was one of the key motivating foces for Hitler's invasion of Europe: to elimate the jews.
No, you are wrong, laughably, idiotically wrong. Hitler had various goals in his conquests, power, wealth, but Hitler considered the destruction of Jews to be his greatest goal:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mein_kampf
In Mein Kampf, Hitler lays out what he considers Germany's greatest enemy: the Jew.
One of Hitler's key goals was to eliminate jews from europe. IN fact, near the very end of the war, when Germany was on the road to total defeat, Hitler still devoted a good deal of resources to killing jews.
I can't believe I have to tell you this.
Please don't waste my time any futher. If you actually have to be told about the final solution, as if it's news to you, then you're too ignorant for this discussion. If the holocaust is news to you, then you're too lost to be bothered with.
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
How isn't he agreeing with me?
And once again your words contradict your actions, proving that you do agree with me and you are incapable of defeating my position.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Tod did you read the wiki I posted on the second page of this thread about the causes of WWII? IF you did then you would see that the war was not started because of Hitlers need to exterminate the Jews nor did it have anything to do with religion and your own wiki verifies that. Saying that Hitler hated the jews and wanted to kill them and thats why WWII started is wrong. I am not denying the actions he took or what happnened. I am saying very clearly that WWII was not started because of religion and that Hitlers main motivation was to restore Germany after he felt they were slighted by the treaty of versaill. Trying to invent causes of the war is obsurd and you still have not proven anything.
The concentration camps and the slaughter of the Jew were not the reason WWII came about. Its that simple. Was Hitlers hate a motivator yes but how he persuaded his fellow countrymen was to apeal to their nationalism not by preaching his hate.
Heres another wiki about the German invasion of Poland and everything I have read says nothing about killing Jews being the main reason for the invasion. Now was Poland and ideal place to have concentration camps after the invasion yes and there is an article outlining the reasons why. But nothing suggests this is not the main reason for doing so.
Prelude to the campaign
The Nazi Party, led by Adolf Hitler, took power in Germany in 1933. At first, Hitler pursued a policy of rapprochement with Poland, culminating in the German-Polish Non-Aggression Pact of 1934. Early foreign policy worked to maneuver Poland into the Anti-Comintern Pact, forming a cooperative front against the Soviet Union. Germany sought to grab hold of Soviet territory, acquire Lebensraum and expand Großdeutschland.[2] Poland would be granted territory of its own, to its northeast, but the concessions the Poles were expected to make meant that their homeland would become largely dependant on Germany, functioning as little more than a client state. Some felt Polish independence would eventually be threatened altogether.[3]
In addition to Soviet territory, the Nazis were also interested in establishing a new border with Poland because the German exclave of East Prussia was separated from the rest of the Reich by the "Polish Corridor." Many Germans also wanted to incorporate the Free City of Danzig into Germany. While Danzig had a predominantly German population, the Corridor constituted land long disputed between Poland and Germany. After the Treaty of Versailles, Poland acquired the Corridor and this led to shifts in the region's population. Hitler sought to reverse this trend and made an appeal to German nationalism, promising to "liberate" the Germans still in the Corridor, as well as Danzig, as the port city was now under the control of the League of Nations.
In 1938, Germany began to increase its demands for Danzig while proposing that a roadway be built in order to connect East Prussia with Germany proper, running through the Polish Corridor.[4] Poland rejected this proposal, fearing that after accepting these demands, it would become increasingly subject to the will of Germany and eventually lose independence as the Czechs had.[5] The Poles also distrusted Hitler and his intentions.[6] At the same time, Germany's collaboration with anti-Polish Ukrainian nationalists from the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists further weakened German credibility in Polish eyes, as it was seen as an effort to isolate and weaken Poland. The British were also aware of this. On March 30, Poland was backed by a guarantee from Britain and France, though neither country was willing to pledge military support in Poland's defense. British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain and his Foreign Secretary, Lord Halifax, still hoped to strike a deal with Hitler regarding the Free City of Danzig (and possibly the Polish Corridor) and Hitler hoped for the same. By again resorting to appeasement, Chamberlain and his supporters believed war could be avoided and hoped Germany would agree to leave the rest of Poland alone. German hegemony over Central Europe was also at stake.
With tensions mounting, Germany turned to aggressive diplomacy, unilaterally withdrawing from both the German-Polish Non-Aggression Pact of 1934 and the London Naval Agreement of 1935 on April 28, 1939. In early 1939, Hitler had already issued orders to prepare for a possible "solution of the Polish problem by military means." Another crucial step towards war was the surprise signing of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact on 23 August, the denouement of secret Nazi-Soviet talks held in Moscow which capitalized on France and Britain's own failure to secure an alliance with the Soviet Union. As a result, Germany neutralized the possibility of Soviet opposition in a potential campaign against Poland. In a secret protocol of this pact, the Germans and the Soviets agreed to divide Eastern Europe, including Poland, into two spheres of influence; the western third of the country was to go to Germany and the eastern two-thirds to the Soviet Union. Although Western Allies' intelligence had uncovered the secret appendix concerning Poland, this information was not shared with the Polish government[citation needed].
The German assault was originally scheduled to begin at 0400 on 26 August. However, on August 25, the Polish-British Common Defence Pact was signed as an annex to the Franco-Polish Military Alliance. In this accord, Britain had committed itself to the defence of Poland, guaranteeing to preserve Polish independence. At the same time, the British and the Poles were hinting to Berlin that they were willing to resume discussions - not at all how Hitler hoped to frame the conflict. Thus, he wavered and postponed his attack until 1 September, managing to halt the entire invasion "in mid-leap", with the exception of a few units that were outside communication lines, towards the south (the Nazi press announced that fanatical Slovakians were behind the cross border raid).
On the 26 August, Hitler tried to dissuade the British and the French from interfering in the conflict, even pledging that the Wehrmacht forces would be made available to Britain's Empire in the future.[6] In any case, the negotiations convinced Hitler that there was little chance the Western Allies would declare war on Germany, and even if they did, due to the lack of territorial guarantees to Poland, they would be willing to negotiate a compromise favourable to Germany after its conquest of Poland. Meanwhile, the number of increased overflights by high-altitude reconnaissance aircraft and cross border troop movements (sappers to Danzig) signalled that war was imminent.
On 29 August, prompted by the British, Germany issued one last diplomatic offer, with Case White yet to be rescheduled. At midnight on August 29, German Foreign Minister Ribbentrop handed British Ambassador Sir Neville Henderson the list of terms which would allegedly ensure peace in regards to Poland. Danzig was to return to Germany (Gdynia would remain with Poland) and there was to be a plebiscite in the Polish Corridor, based on residency in 1919, within the year.[7] An exchange of minority populations between the two countries was proposed.[8] A Polish plenipotentiary, with full powers, was to arrive in Berlin and accept these terms by noon the next day.[9] The British Cabinet viewed the terms as "reasonable," except the demand for the urgent plenipotentiary, a form of ultimatum.[10] When Polish Ambassador Lipski went to see Ribbentrop on August 30, he announced that he did not have the full power to sign and Ribbentrop dismissed him. It was then broadcasted that Poland had rejected Germany's offer and negotiations with Poland came to an end.[11]
On 30 August, the Polish Navy sent its destroyer flotilla to Britain executing Operation Peking. On the same day, Marshal of Poland Edward Rydz-Śmigły announced mobilization of Polish troops. However, he was pressured into revoking the order by the French, who apparently still hoped for a diplomatic settlement, failing to realize that the Germans were fully mobilized and concentrated at the Polish border. During the night of August 31 the Gleiwitz incident ("Polish" attack on the radio station) was staged near the German border city of Gleiwitz, in Upper Silesia. On 31 August 1939, Hitler ordered hostilities against Poland to start at 4:45 the next morning. Due to the prior discontinuation, Poland managed to mobilise only 70% of its planned forces, and many units were still forming or moving to their designated frontline positions.
It's common knowledge that Hitler's goal in Poland, and Russia, were to underpopulate these nations by killing jews and other undesirables.
By other undesirables do you mean everybody that wasnt German or arryan. You also say they wanted to underpopulate those countries, that makes sense. Because when you go to war with another country a good way to win is to underpopulate those countries. Imagine that killing people from the country your at war with, you may be on to something there.
You said that communism has never been put into practice and he said it had. That is not agreeing with you.
What you offer as proof are Hitlers thoughts, but you have not offered any proof that it is why the war began.
Wrong. You are just flat out wrong. My point to you was that Hitler called upon pre existent christian persecution of jews, and that one of Hitler's goals was to eliminate European jews. These are facts, and the fact that you are ignorant of this is just appalling.
Again, you seem to be denying the holocaust. Is this your goal? Are you really going to try and deny the holocaust?
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
Once again, it is common historical fact that one of the goals of the Nazis was to Germanize europe and eliminate Jews.
If you have to be repeatedly told about the holocaust, then you're an idiot.
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
Yes. Aryan.
Sigh. The point of underpopulating them was so that they could replace the population with Aryans.
Again, the fact that you have to be repeatedly told about the holocaust just shows how deluded you're willing to be to defend your religion. The holocaust was inspired by christian persecution of jews that went on in germany for centuries.
I also notice that you dodged all of this:
Excuse me, but I posted you a link about Martin Luther and his anti semitism, that cites a christian source for my claim!
You refuse to even read it!
You can't use your refusal to read my evidence as meaning that I have no evidence!
Now, let's look at the record: It is a matter of record that anti semitism existed in Germany for centuries before Hitler.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_jews
In medieval Europe, many persecutions of Jews in the name of Christianity occurred, notably during the Crusades—when Jews all over Germany were massacred—and a series of expulsions from England, Germany, France, and, in the largest expulsion of all, Spain. Jews were frequently tried and put to death for a variety of imagined religious offenses against Christianity. On many occasions, Jews were accused of a blood libel, the supposed drinking of the blood of Christian children in mockery of the Christian Eucharist. Jews were also falsely accused of torturing consecrated host wafers in a reenactment of the Crucifixion; this was known as host desecration.
During the black plagues of the 14th century, jews were burned by the hundreds, as scapegoats. And Jews suffered from pogroms for centuries afterwards.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Europe_%28Middle_Ages%29#The_demonizing_of_the_Jews
Much of this scapegoating went on in the areas of Europe that would become modern Germany.
I didn't discuss such an issue, but it turns out that you're wrong here too.
As George Bush once said: You forgot Poland.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_World_War_II_atrocities_in_Poland
It's common knowledge that Hitler's goal in Poland, and Russia, were to underpopulate these nations by killing jews and other undesirables.
You really have no idea whatsoever what you're talking about.
None.
At. All.
So? This has nothing to do with any point I made here. It concerns how Hitler called on christian based anti semitism in germany.
Now you say 'fact' without any evidence. Funny how you have no problem doing what you falsely criticize others for...
The facts are that Hitler didn't create the idea of hating Jews. Christians did. Hitler called upon a pre existent hatred. Religion was a factor in WWII. Religious persecution led to the slaughter of millions of Jews.
Now it's my turn to laugh. No, you're claims are not facts at all, they are merely your opinions born of your ignorance. I've shown you what is really available at a library, and it refutes your ass.
In other words, you complain, falsely, that I don't present facts, and now you concede that I do cite sources, but you refuse to even look at the facts....
You're a joke.
PS I wrote the essay myself. The essay cites a christian source. Your refusal to even read it speaks volumes about you. You ignored it without even looking at it.
Here, now I'll post it here so you can't dodge it anymore:
Some theists attempt to argue that Hitler was an atheist. While this claim is untrue, focusing on Hitler's religious beliefs is actually irrelevant: what matters is that Hitler called upon pre-existent, christian inspired hatred and persecution of Jews, and for this reason, christianity is one of the culprits for the holocaust:
Luther's Racism
The magazine Christian History, Issue 39, 1993 (published by Christianity Today) devoted a whole issue to Martin Luther's life and legacy. Pages 38-39 quote his work On the Jews and Their Lies which gives us an idea about how moral Luther's views were:
"Set fire to their synagogues and schools. Jewish houses should be razed and destroyed, and Jewish prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, curing, and blasphemy are taught, [should] be taken from them." Their rabbis [should] be forbidden to teach on pain of loss of life and limb."
This is a man held to be a moral authority? Luther also urged that "safe conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews," and that "all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them." What Jews could do was to have "a flail, an ax, a hole, a spade" put into their hands so "young, strong Jews and Jewesses" could "earn their bread in the sweat of their brow." Do you think any Fuhrer you may have heard of might have gleaned an idea or two from that last passage alone? In fact, think of Hitler while reading the next paragraph.
Luther proposed seven measures of "sharp mercy" that German princes could take against Jews: (1) burn their schools and synagogues; (2) transfer Jews to community settlements; (3) confiscate all Jewish literature, which was blasphemous; (4) prohibit rabbis to teach, on pain of death; (5) deny Jews safe conduct, so as to prevent the spread of Judaism; (6) appropriate their wealth and use it to support converts and to prevent the Jews' practice of usury; (7) assign Jews to manual labor as a form of penance.
Is there no clearer blueprint for the Final Solution than the works of one of christianity's greatest reformers and moralists?
Worse yet, Luther was no paper philosopher - he advised clergy, their congregations, and all government officials to help carry out these measures. Since most Jews had been expelled from Germany before 1536, Luther's counsel was implemented by few officials. Yet a harsh anti-Jewish measure in 1543 mentioned Luther's On the Jews and Their Lies.
Both Luther's friends and his foes criticized him for proposing these measures. His best friends begged him to stop his anti-Jewish raving, but Luther continued his attacks in other treatises. He repeated as true the worst anti-Semitic charges from medieval literature: that Jews killed Christian babies; they murdered Christ over and over again by stabbing eucharistic hosts; they poised wells. As usual, he did not allow facts to deter him from his emotionally driven lies.
Luther now thought what he had accused Catholics of thinking in 1523: Jews were dogs. "We are at fault for not slaying them!" he fumed shortly before his death. Yet one more hypocricy for the master of hypocrisy.
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
Actually, that's your reading of his words. The wiki cite explains to you that some socialists feel that they did begin to imiplement primitive communism, which is not really communism per se, but is its beginnings. For this reason, your 'friend' and we can agree, if he holds that primitive communism is 'implementing communism'.
However, you are still wrong if you believe that real communism was ever implemented anywhere... real communism was a long range goal for a distant future. For a third time, real communism is stateless... the soviet union was a state. It could never institute real communism, and Lenninism and Stalinism were hardly a real attempt at communism!
So your error is in misreading your own friend's words... you're imputing too much into them.... If your friend really wants to say that literal communism was implemented anywhere in a state, he's flat out wrong.
How many times do you need this repeated for you?
LOL Right.... Hitler's intentions had nothing to do with anything the Nazis ever did!
Be serious... Hitler was a despot, he ruled Nazi Germany, his will was law. And again, for the 100th time, he didn't invent Christian hatred of Jews, he merely called upon it as a scapegoat.
Hitler made it clear that the destruction of european jews was his goal. He called the jew the greatest enemy of germany.
Do you have any fucking clue about history at all? Do you know how jews were treated in germany in the 1930s?
Do you even know about Kristallnacht?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnacht
Kristallnacht, also known as Reichskristallnacht, Pogromnacht, Crystal Night and the Night of Broken Glass, was a pogrom[1] against Jews throughout Germany and parts of Austria on November 9–10, 1938.
The amount of glass smashed by German mobs was calculated to be worth approximately 24 million marks.
Jewish homes were ransacked in numerous German cities along with 8,000 Jewish shops, towns and villages,[2] as ordinary citizens and stormtroopers destroyed buildings with sledgehammers, leaving the streets covered in smashed windows — the origin of the name "Night of Broken Glass." Jews were beaten to death; 30,000 Jewish men were taken to concentration camps; and 1,668 synagogues ransacked with 267 set on fire.
.....
By the end of the 1920s, most German Jews were loyal to their country, assimilated and relatively prosperous. They served in the German army and contributed to every field of German science, business and culture. After the Nazis were elected to power in 1933, as a result of progressively harsher state-sponsored antisemitic persecution, by 1938 the Jews had been almost completely excluded from German social and political life. Many sought asylum abroad, and thousands did manage to leave, but as Chaim Weizmann wrote in 1936, "The world seemed to be divided into two parts — those places where the Jews could not live and those where they could not enter."[4]
Historian Eric Johnson notes that in the year preceding Kristallnacht the Germans “had entered a new radical phase in anti-Semitic activity.”[5] Although still controversial, some historians believe that the Nazi government had been contemplating a planned outbreak of violence against the Jews for quite some time and were waiting for an appropriate pretext, as there is even evidence of such planning stretching back to 1937[6]. The Zionist leadership in Palestine wrote in February 1938 “a very reliable private source – one which can be traced back to the highest echelons of the SS leadership, that there is an intention to carry out a genuine and dramatic pogrom in Germany on a large scale in the near future.”[7]
It is historical fact that Nazis implemented state endorsed antisemitism. It is historical fact that they were calling on pre existent christian persecution of jews to rouse the people for this task.
It is historical fact that one of the goals of the Nazis was to eliminate jews from europe, if not from the fact of the earth.
Are you a holocaust denier? If so, save us some time and admit it. Otherwise, you must simply be ignorant of history.
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
You keep saying the Holocaust when there is not mention of it in the articles I have read about the causes of the war, nor are they in the causes of the invasion of Poland (Defensive war). I have said that he had the thoughts and feelings against the Jews but it was not the purpose of the war. Again you have yet to provide anything that supports your claim.
Lumping in Martin Luthers dislike for the Jew and Hitlers is not proof of why the war started. If Hitler was so keen on using Christian hate to kill the Jews why did he close down CHristian churches in Germany and replace the Bible with Mind Keimpf(sp). Why when he took over Poland did he shut down the Catholic churches and kill all the religious leaders.
So one more time so we are all clear. The Holocaust was not the cause of the war, read the material I have provided to see what the causes of the war really were.
I am not a Holocaust denier. I believe that we are discussing two different issues. I am saying the WWII was not started because of the Holocaust or because of any religious agenda. THe facts support my statement. If you read my posts you would see that.
Then you must not know how to read.
The top Nazi official Hermann Göring met with other members of the Nazi leadership on November 12 to plan the next steps after the riot, setting the stage for formal government action that would eventually lead to the Holocaust. In the transcript of the meeting Göring said,
This was an order for the holocaust.
You must be a madman. The Germans called Poland the 'defensive' war as a lie. The Germans actually instigated the war with the goal of Germanizing Poland.
Many of the concentration camps were placed in Poland.
Once again, I've told you that the holocaust was one of the aims of the war. Once again, this is common historical fact.
The point of citing Luther was to demonstrate that Germans had thought of using pogroms and other violent tactics against jews for centuries.
First of all, even if Hitler did those things, it would not contradict the fact that Hitler didn't invent christian anti semitism in germany.
Second, you need to prove that Hitler "shut down all the chuches" and and 'replaced all the bibles with mein Kampf"
By the way, if you can't even spell it, doesn't that tell you something about how little you know about all of this? You didn't even bother to look up the spelling.
He killed all sorts of Polish leaders.
Once again, the holocaust was one of the goals of the war, Hitler made that clear from the time of Mein Kampf. Yes, there were other goals as well: the germanization of europe, power, wealth, but eliminating what Hitler felt to be Germany's greatets enemy: the jew, was also a major goal, if not a key goal.
Once again, you are a holocaust denier, and that is just sickening.
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
Then how can you deny that one of the key motivating factors for WWII was the due to christian persecution of jews? Hitler and Germany devoted enormous resources to the concentration camps, even when they faced military defeat....
You seem to like wiki, here's their entry on the cause of WWII in europe:
In the six years preceding World War II, Adolf Hitler, leading the Nazi Party, took power in Germany and eliminated its democratic government, the Weimar Republic. As stated in Mein Kampf, an autobiographical book outlining his plans for the future, Hitler's goal was to invade and conquer lands around Germany, and to make them German. He railed against Communists and ethnic minorities, such as Jews. After taking power, he prepared Germany for another war with large political rallies and speeches.
Mein Kampf outlined his goals for Germany's future. It was well read in Germany, and it was basically his party platform. In that work, he outlined the need to solve the "Jewish" problem.
During Hitler's reign from 1933 to just before the war began, he instituted state run anti semitism.... and he didn't need to teach the people to hate jews... many of them already inherited hatred from their own christian parents... Lutherism, and its anti semitism, was a well received religion in Germany...
The reality is that christians persecuted jews in germany for centuries, and Hitler, who grew up a rabid anti semite, called upon this christian born hatred of jews. It was one of the motives for the war.
Please embrace reality.
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
Hitler could have exterminated every Jew in Germany in relative privacy without going to war but he didnt. He may have been able to do the same in Poland. He id not need a war to do those things, he already had concentration camps in 1933. They werent the death camps yet but he had them, and could have killed anyone he threw in them without being questioned.
I am not denying that his hate for the Jews was a motivator for the Nazi party. But can you provide any articles that name the Holocaust as an explicit reason for the start of WWII. I should verify a non-biased article. I simply think you are overstating the role the Holocaust played as a cause iof the war.
How many times does it need to be pointed out to you that one of his goals was to eliminate all european jews?
He needed a war to invade Poland.
Or any other european nation that would stand in the ways of his goals.
Thanks for proving my point: that he already had camps very early on, and that one of the goals of the Nazis was to spread these camps all across Poland and the Soviet Union.
Thanks for refuting youself again.
Now just ask yourself: where did this hatred of jews come from? Did the Nazis invent it?
I already cited Wiki's entry on WWII:.
In the six years preceding World War II, Adolf Hitler, leading the Nazi Party, took power in Germany and eliminated its democratic government, the Weimar Republic. As stated in Mein Kampf, an autobiographical book outlining his plans for the future, Hitler's goal was to invade and conquer lands around Germany, and to make them German. He railed against Communists and ethnic minorities, such as Jews. After taking power, he prepared Germany for another war with large political rallies and speeches.
Also, from the entry on the holocaust:
The Holocaust is the term generally used to describe the killing of approximately six million European Jews during World War II, as part of a program of deliberate extermination planned and executed by the Nazi regime in Germany led by Adolf Hitler.
I'm amazed that I have to point out to anyone that Hitler's goals included taking over Europe and eliminating who claimed to be Germany's greatest enemy: the Jew. It's astounding that I have to even argue this point with you. It proves you haven't actually read much of any history.
And again, I ask you: Did the nazis invent persecution of jews?
Can you tell me who did it first? Who started persecuting jews in europe, in the area that became Germany. Can you tell me how you think that German theologian, Martin Luther's words might influence germany?
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
I am not refuting myself at all. You are citing an article that I have to draw the information out of. I have to read into the article to come to the same conclusion that you have. The cites that I have provided clearly state what the causes of the second world war were.
You are right the Nazis did not invent persecution of the jews. I would have to say the Egyptians did that.
Let me put it another way. Other countries did not declare war on Hitler because of the Holocaust nor did they fight wat to stop the Holocaust. Can anyone tell me why France, Great Britian and Soviet Union declared war on Germany? I will give you a hint it wasnt because of the Holocaust or the Jews.
Yes, you are. I pointed out where, and why. By conceding that concentration camps were already around, you concede that one fo the key motivating factors for the Nazis was to persecute undesirables, particularly Jews.
Again, it's fucking astounding that I have to point this out to you.
And the causes for germany include a desire to Germanize europe and eliminate undesirables, which focused mainly on Jews. This is in the Wiki citation. This refutes you again.
If you are unaware that these were the goals of the nazis, then you are ignorant of the topic you are trying to 'debate'.
Right. The nazis didn't invent persecution of the jews.
So they were calling upon a pre existent hatred.
Now, you tell me... how many Egyptians were in Germany?
Do you think that Hitler was calling upon Egyptian hatred of Jews to rouse the German people?
Or do you think he was calling upon anti semitism that existed in his own country?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_and_the_Jews
Martin Lutther's views on the Jews are described as racial or religious anti-Semitism, [1] or as anti-Judaism. [2] In his treatise Von den Juden und ihren Lügen (On the Jews and their Lies), published in 1543, he wrote that Jews' synagogues should be set on fire, prayerbooks destroyed, rabbis forbidden to preach, homes "smashed and destroyed," property seized, money confiscated, and that these "poisonous envenomed worms" be drafted into forced labor or expelled "for all time." [3] He also appeared to sanction their murder: [4] "Jerusalem was destroyed over 1400 years ago, and at that time we Christians were harassed and persecuted by the Jews throughout the world ... So we are even at fault for not avenging all this innocent blood of our Lord and of the Christians which they shed for 300 years after the destruction of Jerusalem ... We are at fault in not slaying them." [5]
British historian Paul Johnson has called On the Jews and their Lies the "first work of modern anti-Semitism, and a giant step forward on the road to the Holocaust." [6] Four centuries after it was written, the Nazis cited Luther's treatise to justify the Final Solution. [7]
Further down:
The Nazis
The line of "anti-Semitic descent" from Luther to Hitler is "easy to draw," [26] according to American historian Lucy Dawidowicz. In her The War Against the Jews, 1933-1945, she writes that both Luther and Hitler were obsessed by the "demonologized universe" inhabited by Jews, with Hitler asserting that the later Luther, the author of On the Jews and Their Lies was the real Luther. [27]
Dawidowicz writes that the similarities between Luther's anti-Jewish writings and modern anti-Semitism are no cooincidence, because they derived from a common history of Judenhass, which can be traced to Haman's advice to Ahasuerus, although modern German anti-Semitism also has its roots in German nationalism and Christian anti-Semitism, a foundation she says was laid by the Roman Catholic Church and "upon which Luther built." [27]
Professor Robert Michael, Professor Emeritus of European History at the University of Massachusetts, Dartmouth, has argued that Luther scholars who try to tone down Luther's views on the Jews ignore the murderous implications of his antisemitism. Michael argues that there is a "strong parallel" between Luther's ideas and the anti-Semitism of most German Lutherans throughout the Holocaust. [28] Like the Nazis, Luther mythologized the Jews as evil, he writes. They could be saved only if they converted to Christianity, but their hostility to the idea made it inconceivable. [28]
Luther's sentiments were widely echoed in the Germany of the 1930s, particularly within the Nazi party. Hitler's Education Minister, Bernhard Rust, was quoted by the Völkischer Beobachter as saying that: "Since Martin Luther closed his eyes, no such son of our people has appeared again. It has been decided that we shall be the first to witness his reappearance ... I think the time is past when one may not say the names of Hitler and Luther in the same breath. They belong together; they are of the same old stamp [Schrot und Korn]". [29]
Hans Hinkel, leader of the Luther League's magazine Deutsche Kultur-Wacht, and of the Berlin chapter of the Kampfbund, paid tribute to Luther in his acceptance speech as head of both the Jewish section and the film department of Goebbel's Chamber of Culture and Propaganda Ministry. "Through his acts and his spiritual attitude, he began the fight which we will wage today; with Luther, the revolution of German blood and feeling against alien elements of the Volk was begun. To continue and complete his Protestantism, nationalism must make the picture of Luther, of a German fighter, live as an example above the barriers of confession for all German blood comrades." [30]
According to Daniel Goldhagen, Bishop Martin Sasse, a leading Protestant churchman, published a compendium Luther's writings shortly after Kristallnacht — which Diarmaid MacCulloch, Professor of the History of the Church in the University of Oxford argued Luther's writing was a "blueprint" for [31] — in which Sasse "applauded the burning of the synagogues and the coincidence of the day, writing in the introduction, "On November 10, 1938, on Luther's birthday, the synagogues are burning in Germany." The German people, he urged, ought to heed these words "of the greatest antisemite of his time, the warner of his people against the Jews." [32]
William Nichols, Professor of Religious Studies, recounts, "At his trial in Nuremberg after the Second World War, Julius Streicher, the notorious Nazi propagandist, editor of the scurrilous antisemitic weekly, Der Stürmer, argued that if he should be standing there arraigned on such charges, so should Martin Luther. Reading such passages, it is hard not to agree with him. Luther's proposals read like a program for the Nazis." [33] It was Luther's expression "The Jews are our misfortune" that centuries later would be repeated by Heinrich von Treitschke and appear as motto on the front page of Julius Streicher's Der Stürmer.
Some scholars have attributed the Nazi "Final Solution" directly to Martin Luther.[34]. Others refute this point of view, pointedly taking issue with the thesis advanced by Shirer and others. [35]
Further down:
In the course of the Luthertag (Luther Day) festivities, the Nazis emphasized their connection to Luther as being both nationalist revolutionaries and the heirs of the German traditionalist past. An article in the Chemnitzer Tageblatt stated that "[t]he German Volk are united not only in loyalty and love for the Fatherland, but also once more in the old German beliefs of Luther [Lutherglauben]; a new epoch of strong, conscious religious life has dawned in Germany." Richard Steigmann-Gall wrote in his 2003 book The Holy Reich: Nazi Conceptions of Christianity, 1919-1945:
Hitler didn't invent anti semitism, and he couldn't call upon "egyptian anti semitism' to arouse the GERMAN people... he called upon anti semitism that already existed in Germany, and this anti semitism has a long history going back to the dark ages....
Only a lutheran naysayer would deny this reality.
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
I'M TALKING ABOUT GERMANY'S MOTIVATIONS FOR WWII.
CAN ANYONE TELL ME WHY YOU ARE BRINGING UP THE MOTIVES OF OTHER COUNTRIES, WHEN THE ENTIRE POINT I AM MAKING CONCERNS GERMANY'S MOTIVATIONS FOR WWII?
I can tell you why: because you're utterly refuted, so now you have to look for some pathetic dodge....
The point here is that GERMANY'S goals for WWII were to germanize europe and eliminate Jews. This hatred for jews was inspired by christian persecution, ergo religion played a negative role in WWII, because it was a major factor for the Nazis INVADING POLAND AND BEGINNING WWII
Britian, France, et al, were motivated by treaties, and basic survival, to fight the nazis.
I can't believe how obtuse you are.
Here are some more facts for you to ignore:
From the wiki article on Luther and the Nazis:
In the course of the Luthertag (Luther Day) festivities, the Nazis emphasized their connection to Luther as being both nationalist revolutionaries and the heirs of the German traditionalist past. An article in the Chemnitzer Tageblatt stated that "[t]he German Volk are united not only in loyalty and love for the Fatherland, but also once more in the old German beliefs of Luther [Lutherglauben]; a new epoch of strong, conscious religious life has dawned in Germany." Richard Steigmann-Gall wrote in his 2003 book The Holy Reich: Nazi Conceptions of Christianity, 1919-1945:
The leadership of the Protestant League espoused a similar view. Fahrenhorst, who was on the planning committee of the Luthertag, called Luther "the first German spiritual Führer" who spoke to all Germans regardless of clan or confession. In a letter to Hitler, Fahrenhorst reminded him that his "Old Fighters" were mostly Protestants and that it was precisely in the Protestant regions of our Fatherland" in which Nazism found its greatest strength. Promising that the celebration of Luther's birthday would not turn into a confessional affair, Fahrenhorst invited Hitler to become the official patron of the Luthertag. In subsequent correspondence, Fahrenhorst again voiced the notion that reverence for Luther could somehow cross confessional boundaries: "Luther is truly not only the founder of a Christian confession; much more, his ideas had a fruitful impact on all Christianity in Germany." Precisely because of Luther's political as well as religious significance, the Luthertag would serve as a confession both "to church and Volk." [36]
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
Yes, you are. I pointed out where, and why. By conceding that concentration camps were already around, you concede that one fo the key motivating factors for the Nazis was to persecute undesirables, particularly Jews.
Again, it's fucking astounding that I have to point this out to you.
Well maybe I should have mentioned that the Jews werent introduced to the camps for being Jews until 1937 and the camps were not considered racially or ethnicaly motivated they were used like a prison as work camps.
I am and always have been talking about teh causes of WWII from both sides. I still dont agree that the Holcaust was the main purpose in Hitlers wheelhouse. And again have you read the multiple articles I have cited?
No shit. This came later, but the intent was there all along, as evidencd by Mein Kampf.
Yes, that was the big lie. You seem to read Nazi lies as literal facts. You called the war with Poland the "defensive' war without realizing that this was a lie that the Nazis told to the world, when in fact, they invaded Poland. Now you repeat the old Nazi lie "work will set you free"... i.e. that the camps were merely work camps.
The goal of the camps was to slaughter undesirables... they began as a lie that they were not made for such a reason... but this was a decpetion in order to fool the Jews and the other undesirables that they intended to slaughter.
Perhaps even you have heard how they would tell Jews that they were merely going to a shower?
You really seem to be ignorant of the basics...
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
This has nothing to do with the discussion! Our discourse began with your denials of my points about Germany. Bringing up other countries makes NO SENSE unless you're just trying to dodge the fact that I've refuted you concerning Germany.
Bringing up the reasons for England or Frace to go to war is just inane if the entire point of the discussion is to talk about how christian persecution influenced the NAZIS!
Please concede that you're just saying this now to save face, and move on.
Then you don't know much of anything about WWII and Germany's role in it. Nor do you know anything at all about Hitler. I've stated that Hitler and the Nazis had many goals, but what fueled them was their reliance of christian antisemitism in germany.... they needed a scapegoat and the christians gave Hitler one: the jew.
Yes, too bad you're unable to understand them. Your citations do not disprove the point Germany's goals in the war were to Germanize Europe and eliminate Jews.... Your one lengthy citation talks about the logistics of invading Poland, not the motivations behind it.....
So you're not even able to follow what you are citing!
Now, have you read anything I cited?
No. You just keep dodging it.
Just stop this already, your claim is nonsense. Hitler's goals included eradicating Jews, it was one of the main goals for Hitler and the Nazi party. The holocaust is a testimony to this.
And this anti semitism was born of christian persecution of the jews, that can be traced back to the pogroms of the 14th century, that blamed jews for the black plagues, and the anti semitism of Martin Luther in the 16th century. I've even cited where the nazis call Martin Luther the first furher.
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
You keep spouting a lot of crap without countering a single point I made. Since I'm a nice guy, I'll go back personally and state them again. This is your last chance to refute them. After this chance, if you fail to refute me again, I'll consider you a liar for denying what you know is true, and write off further responses to my points on this subject with one liners(since that's all they'll be worth).
1: He believed the jews were evil and were destroying Germany and much of Europe.
2: He believed much of Europe was conspiring with them to destroy Germany.
3: He believed that white skin, blonde hair, and blue eyes made the perfect human.
4: He believed perfect humans were destined to rule the world, and that he was the one to deliver it.
Seems you are a liar. Either that or you have a significant problem with reading comprehension.
I said communism never existed. He said communism never existed. That is agreeing with me. Is your first language english? If not, that might explain your failure to comprehend what I and your friend said. Otherwise I don't see any excuse.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
You'd also know that communism has never been put into practice anywhere in human history.
That is exactly what you wrote. YOu didnt say complete communism was never achieved and he clearly says it has been attempted in Soviet Union.
THe thing here is that Hitler did not need a war to carry out his plans for the Jews and the fact that the French were shipping their Jews to the concentration camps is proof of that.
Never being put into practice = not being achieved. What part of this simple english do you not understand? Attempted does not equal achievement or practiced.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.