I'm on the verge of Deconversion
Offline Hello everyone.
I had written out a longwinded post here about my journey from true believer to my current state of what I would call semi-decoversion, however before I could post it I hit the wrong button at the wrong time and lost it all. The Christian side of my brain tells me that God didn't want me to post my comments, therefore I lost them, whereas the rational side of my brain tells me I'm just an idiot. But I am going to try again, albeit in a shortened point form. I am looking for comments from atheists and theists to try and help me make sense of things.
- I have always gone to church and had a 'born again' experience and belief as a teenager.- I have been reading many things recently cause me to question the truth of a historical Jesus, particularly the lack of mention of him by historians of the time and the similarities of the Jesus story with prior Egyptian gods.If he did not ever exist as a living person who lived, preached, performed miracles, was crucified and then rose from the dead, then everyting about Christianity changes.- I am still skeptical about there being no creator 'god', as the intracasies of life, the world and the universe seem difficult to imagine happening by chance, so at this stage I'm still with the watchmaker people.- The idea of God answering prayer seems to be an increasingly unlikely thing to me. The number of people who cry out to God for healing and don't get a yes is incredibly high, with the number of genuine healings not easily explained as having been medically or naturally induced is extremely small.- Despite the negativity of many towards Christianity, I see much to like about it's effect on the world. Much of the humanitarian work throughout the world is done in the name of Christ, and the selflessness that is displayed by many (and should be by all) Christians makes the world a better place. - The teachings of Jesus and Paul in the new testament are in general great guidelines for life. - The moral codes that Christians generally seek to live by are positive ones.
So at this point I am having severe doubts about the validilty of Christianity yet still see that living a Christian life as being the best way to live. Does that sound confusing to you? Because at the moment many things are confusing me, so I would appreciate your feedback. I hope this makes sense - my original post was far more eloquent than this one, but I was not going to attempt it all again lest I lose it asecond time. If this post doesn't go through perhaps I will take it as a sign from God that I was not going to post it (not that any of you will see it) or perhaps it will just be confirmation that I am truly a moron.
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Offline Thanks for getting those responses Ben. REVLyle, I'm still waiting for your response. Also what do you think about these other opinions? Is Ghandi likely to be in heaven according to your understanding of heaven and hell?
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Offline Thanks for getting those responses Ben. REVLyle, I'm still waiting for your response. Also what do you think about these other opinions? Is Ghandi likely to be in heaven according to your understanding of heaven and hell?
Oh, and Levi is a prick in general, so don't be offended by his meanness at the end of his post.
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Offline 4. If you came here for truth - you came to the wrong place. This place thrives on anti-Christian rhetoric. When shown that they are wrong - they do not change anything. Nothing here but fools.
Awww... you're so sweet! When did 'show' anyone here that they were wrong about what, exactly?
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Offline You will clearly see that Glenn Miller is not impressed with the claims of atheists.
And I'm not terribly impressed with Miller's loaded, pre-restrictive criteria designed to unnecessarally narrow the domain for the purposes of 'proving' christian exceptionalism.
Ba-lon-ey.
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Offline You tell me, why isn't your disclaimer Not one story of Horus contains even a third of those elements ever seen at the top of these websites?
Why does that matter? One should expect that syncretic influences in myth-generation would be broad and multifarious in such a crossroads as Palestine.
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Offline REVLyle, stil waiting on your response.
Some comments and questions for those of you who may have been Christians in the past and/or continue to have family who are Christians. How do you view the aspects of Christianity (and I'm sure many other religions) that provide people with a hope of a better future, partly here on earth but also in an eternal heaven? I ask this because it would seem to me that this is a very important belief for many and to take that away from them would be devastating. To give an example from my own personal situation, my wife is a Christian and has a strong faith in Jesus Christ. She also has suffered severe illness over many years which at time cause her great pain. In fact it has been her situation that has been one of the main reasons for me questioning my own beliefs. I have heard her on countless occasions cry out to God and plead for him to take away her pain, however he doesn't do it. So either he is saying no, he isn't listening, or he simply isn't there. Despite her situation she retains her belief in Jesus, which for her also means that one day she will go to heaven and be freed from her pain. That is her hope for the future, and so I feel for me or anyone else to try and take away that hope by convincing her that God doesn't exist could have a devastating effect on her outlook on life. I'm sure that this would be the case for many other Christians who have miserable lives in some way or another, so my question is do you think it is best to let them go on in their belief, as it makes them happy and gives them hope (regardless of whether it is a false hope or not) or do you try and convince them that there is no God, which whilst being perhaps intellectually the right thing to do also could cause great distress and unhappiness. I hope this makes sense.
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Offline REVLyle, stil waiting on your response. Some comments and questions for those of you who may have been Christians in the past and/or continue to have family who are Christians. How do you view the aspects of Christianity (and I'm sure many other religions) that provide people with a hope of a better future, partly here on earth but also in an eternal heaven? I ask this because it would seem to me that this is a very important belief for many and to take that away from them would be devastating. To give an example from my own personal situation, my wife is a Christian and has a strong faith in Jesus Christ. She also has suffered severe illness over many years which at time cause her great pain. In fact it has been her situation that has been one of the main reasons for me questioning my own beliefs. I have heard her on countless occasions cry out to God and plead for him to take away her pain, however he doesn't do it. So either he is saying no, he isn't listening, or he simply isn't there. Despite her situation she retains her belief in Jesus, which for her also means that one day she will go to heaven and be freed from her pain. That is her hope for the future, and so I feel for me or anyone else to try and take away that hope by convincing her that God doesn't exist could have a devastating effect on her outlook on life. I'm sure that this would be the case for many other Christians who have miserable lives in some way or another, so my question is do you think it is best to let them go on in their belief, as it makes them happy and gives them hope (regardless of whether it is a false hope or not) or do you try and convince them that there is no God, which whilst being perhaps intellectually the right thing to do also could cause great distress and unhappiness. I hope this makes sense.
Hey, Simmo.
I know that you were asking for answers from our more theist posters, but this is an important question for atheists as well. For instance, if everyone were to deconvert (which would make us very happy), what do atheists have to offer in God's place?
The answers to this will be extremely varied and will differ from one atheist to the next. Most replace God with an emphasis on humanism: They ask themselves what they are doing that is important to human relationships or to society as a whole. I think we've already touched on this in responses we've given you previously.
You will also see forum topics and sometimes replies in which some atheists admit that they don't have the heart to try and deconvert certain family members for whom they feel that theism has become a need, a sort of addiction. It almost seems heartless to put someone through the emotional rollercoaster (worse for some than for others) of deconversion from a belief they have held their entire lives (ignoring the presumptuous suggestion that the deconversion attempt would be successful). I can speak from personal experience about this because I am an atheist in that situation. I would discuss atheism/theism with pretty much anyone except for my own parents. They're both in their mid 50's, their lives half over, and they are both devout believers.
I would not be against the idea of their being deconverted. I simply could not do it myself. To me, this only indicates that I care about these people and don't want to put them through any stress.
But it's most likely very true that if a deconversion is going to be successul, it's going to have to offer an agreeable alternative to God belief. I honestly believe that atheism can do that (and the passionate/activist atheists are working to make that even more true), but persuading believers of this is the challenge.
Thanks for sticking around, Simmo. 
A place common to all will be maintained by none. A religion common to all is perhaps not much different.
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Offline REVLyle, stil waiting on your response. Some comments and questions for those of you who may have been Christians in the past and/or continue to have family who are Christians. How do you view the aspects of Christianity (and I'm sure many other religions) that provide people with a hope of a better future, partly here on earth but also in an eternal heaven? I ask this because it would seem to me that this is a very important belief for many and to take that away from them would be devastating.
Perhaps... but think of the gains, of placing all your hopes and concentration of acting for the greater good IN this world, rather than waiting dutifully for an unknown one of dubious beneficience!
I'm sure that this would be the case for many other Christians who have miserable lives in some way or another, so my question is do you think it is best to let them go on in their belief, as it makes them happy and gives them hope (regardless of whether it is a false hope or not) or do you try and convince them that there is no God, which whilst being perhaps intellectually the right thing to do also could cause great distress and unhappiness.
Do the right thing, cause a temporary distress... and help them live better, help others, work for a common human good. Our only tangible immortality may be found in making a positive difference for our families, our community, our society, our world. Good works live on.
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Offline Simmo, I went through a similar deconversion.
I outline it in this topic here.
It's how I went from Christian to atheist, to my current position.
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Offline REVLyle, stil waiting on your response. Some comments and questions for those of you who may have been Christians in the past and/or continue to have family who are Christians. How do you view the aspects of Christianity (and I'm sure many other religions) that provide people with a hope of a better future, partly here on earth but also in an eternal heaven? I ask this because it would seem to me that this is a very important belief for many and to take that away from them would be devastating. To give an example from my own personal situation, my wife is a Christian and has a strong faith in Jesus Christ. She also has suffered severe illness over many years which at time cause her great pain. In fact it has been her situation that has been one of the main reasons for me questioning my own beliefs. I have heard her on countless occasions cry out to God and plead for him to take away her pain, however he doesn't do it. So either he is saying no, he isn't listening, or he simply isn't there. Despite her situation she retains her belief in Jesus, which for her also means that one day she will go to heaven and be freed from her pain. That is her hope for the future, and so I feel for me or anyone else to try and take away that hope by convincing her that God doesn't exist could have a devastating effect on her outlook on life. I'm sure that this would be the case for many other Christians who have miserable lives in some way or another, so my question is do you think it is best to let them go on in their belief, as it makes them happy and gives them hope (regardless of whether it is a false hope or not) or do you try and convince them that there is no God, which whilst being perhaps intellectually the right thing to do also could cause great distress and unhappiness. I hope this makes sense.
Personally I think I'd have a harder time, if I believed in all that stuff, trying to reason out why god has singled out your wife for suffering and offers no cure other than a happier shinier death.
I find I'm at peace with the alternative, which is this situation is consistant with the reality that there is no god or no magic cure. Also, with the odds being so great of me never existing at all.. I find myself fortunate that I'm able to experience what I have so far, for the blink that we're here on our tiny portion of the universe.
I'm also reminded in this case of Sam Harris' analogy of the idea of the diamond in his yard:
If I told you that I thought there was a diamond the size of a refrigerator buried in my backyard, and you asked me, why do you think that? I say, this belief gives my life meaning, or my family draws a lot of joy from this belief, and we dig for this diamond every Sunday and we have this gigantic pit in our lawn. I would start to sound like a lunatic to you. You can't believe there really is a diamond in your backyard because it gives your life meaning. If that's possible, that's self-deception that nobody wants.
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Offline
Personally I think I'd have a harder time, if I believed in all that stuff, trying to reason out why god has singled out your wife for suffering and offers no cure other than a happier shinier death.
I find I'm at peace with the alternative, which is this situation is consistant with the reality that there is no god or no magic cure.
That is fairly close to how my thinking is on my wife's health situation. However my concern for her (and presumably many other Christians who suffer greatly in some form or another) is that to take away her hope that there is something better beyond this world would just crush her. Is it better to live with this hope, no matter how unlikely it is, or to see the likely reality that her only existence will be one of continual physical pain?
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Offline I hope your own search for reason is not dependant on what your wife believes. Tackle your own deconversion first and foremost, and try to keep the church off the kids if you have them. (I wouldn't try to force them either direction, just keep finding answers to their questions.)
There's no real magic pill. If you're willing to keep asking questions and really reflect on the answers (which it seems you do), if you keep adding up all the arguments, all the evidence, and really want to find the information.. I trust you'll find it really hard to backslide into Christianity (or any theism.)
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Offline simmo, This might be of help. I am basicly an atheist Jesus, Buddha, Mythology fan and enjoyed alot of it. Kind-of a western Buddhist / Hindu answer to your questions. No dogma or preaching.
This series of audio books by Neale Donald Walsch, where GOD talks, pretty cool ..... 4 AUDIO BOOKS, AND A MOVIE The New Revelations, Conversations with God Book 1, Conversations with God Book 2, Conversations with God Book 3 , Conversations with God - The Movie, and more.
I haven't heard all of it, or seen the movie.
UPLOADED INTO YOUTUBE BY, alienx1976. Here they are in correct order. http://www.youtube.com/user/alienx1976
A thoughtful "Cure" for the Christians etc. Maybe my favorite one, "The New Revelations", is here, http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=5DD61EEBFB40D826
You might be lifted by this series. NOTE the male voice of god is actor Ed Asner, the female voice of god is actress Ellen Burstyn, the human "questioner" is the author Neale Donald Walsch.
Eastern ideas are helpful. Some good reading here. http://www.hinduism.co.za/jesus.htm
Michael Benner is pretty cool, he has a radio show and lots of podcasts, can google search him. http://www.theagelesswisdom.com/
Personally, I teach the kids and everyone we are god, as to defeat the god of Abraham. That god word ain't going away so let's fix it I say.
Good luck with everything.
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Offline Thanks for so many replies so quickly. Firstly on the subject of creation v evolution, I have done very little research on the subject so at this point my stated 'belief' in a creator god is coming from a point of ignorance regarding the scientific complexities of it all. Another issue I have which would be best answered by those that have left Christianity - my family are Christians, my friends are Christians, most of my life is wrapped up in Christian community. And in general I love these people, they love me, and I don't want to walk away from them. As I stated previously regarding what I see as the positive aspects of Christianity, a change in my internal beliefs may have very little effect on my outward appearance to others. I will still endeavour to love others, but with quite likely a very different mindset behind it. To walk away from Christianity is a very difficult thing for me to do.
There is only one way to truely form a true undisputable belief in God and the reality of his existance. That is to step out on faith to spend a great deal of time studying what Jesus teaches in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and implementing his teachings into your life. When you experience the changes in your life that is when you will believe. The reason you were "saved" yet still dont believe is because a church did a very poor job of teaching you what it means to be saved and what it truely means to be a Christian. Being a Christian means being a student of Jesus who lives the way he teaches. Paul teaches we are saved by faith like Abraham, well Abrahams faith can only be seen as following everything that God told him to do and it was only at a point after he started following that God said he truely believed.
You will never believe by hearing what people tell you, that is acceptance of information, not belief. The only way to completely have unwavering belief is to personally experience something. You have to start studying Jesus and implementing his teachings into your heart and life in order to personally experience what it is he can do for you and create true belief in him and God.
Before you read the Bible or anything else religious related you need to pray to God that you feel lost and unsure what is the truth and you need to ask Him to open your eyes, heart, and mind to His truth. Then start reading Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John and dont stop studying them until you have a firm grasp of what Jesus teaches.
If you would like to pm me with any questions regarding the Bible and what it teaches I would love for you too so please feel free.
Stephen
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There is only one way to truely form a true undisputable belief in God and the reality of his existance. That is to step out on faith to spend a great deal of time studying what Jesus teaches in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and implementing his teachings into your life. When you experience the changes in your life that is when you will believe.
So, when you believe, then you'll start believing. So, just believe it and you'll be fine. (I just want to make sure I'm understanding what you're saying.)
The reason you were "saved" yet still dont believe is because a church did a very poor job of teaching you what it means to be saved and what it truely means to be a Christian. Being a Christian means being a student of Jesus who lives the way he teaches.
Okay, let's take a look:
1) Lie to your friends (John 15:15 vs. John 16:12)
2) Threaten people (Luke 3:9)
3) Get members of a family to quarrel with each other (Matthew 10:21)
4) Be divisive (Luke 11:23)
5) Be a nice person and love everyone (with a few exceptions.)
All it takes is a dash of empathy to figure out how to cull this list down to the important things.
Paul teaches we are saved by faith like Abraham, well Abrahams faith can only be seen as following everything that God told him to do and it was only at a point after he started following that God said he truely believed.
So, how does one tell the difference between god talking to you, the devil talking to you, and the voices in your head talking to you?
Or does god not talk to anyone these days?
You will never believe by hearing what people tell you, that is acceptance of information, not belief. The only way to completely have unwavering belief is to personally experience something. You have to start studying Jesus and implementing his teachings into your heart and life in order to personally experience what it is he can do for you and create true belief in him and God.
This can be restated as "just go along with it and you'll see."
Xposure, are you implying that simmo didn't try hard enough or was insincere?
Before you read the Bible or anything else religious related you need to pray to God that you feel lost and unsure what is the truth and you need to ask Him to open your eyes, heart, and mind to His truth. Then start reading Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John and dont stop studying them until you have a firm grasp of what Jesus teaches.
Oh, and talk so as to purposely confuse people you talk to (Luke 8:10)
If you would like to pm me with any questions regarding the Bible and what it teaches I would love for you too so please feel free.
Stephen
Xposure (Stephen), could you define the word "god" for me? Also, do you believe that god and Jesus are one and the same (according to your definition of the word "god" )?
-Triften
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Offline Hello Triften!
Xposure wrote:
There is only one way to truely form a true undisputable belief in God and the reality of his existance. That is to step out on faith to spend a great deal of time studying what Jesus teaches in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and implementing his teachings into your life. When you experience the changes in your life that is when you will believe.So, when you believe, then you'll start believing. So, just believe it and you'll be fine. (I just want to make sure I'm understanding what you're saying.)
Xposure wrote:That isnt what I said...I said when you start out with faith not belief, faith doesnt require belief. When you start implementing and you experience the changes in your life that is when you form belief.
The reason you were "saved" yet still dont believe is because a church did a very poor job of teaching you what it means to be saved and what it truely means to be a Christian. Being a Christian means being a student of Jesus who lives the way he teaches.
Okay, let's take a look:
1) Lie to your friends (John 15:15 vs. John 16:12)
Those scriptures have nothing to do with eachother. In the latter verse you post he is merely explaining that there is much more to things but that we dont have the capacity to understand them.
2) Threaten people (Luke 3:9)
The entire Bible is based on the premise that God requires people to live a certain way, this is especially true to the people who have heard his Word but reject Him by not following. That specific passage John the Baptist was speaking to people who were entrusted with correctly giving Gods teaching but we not.
3) Get members of a family to quarrel with each other (Matthew 10:21)
depends on if your family wants to follow God's ways or if they will still support you when you follow. Most wont if they are not followers. The point is that you have to place living Gods ways above all else.
4) Be divisive (Luke 11:23)
actually he created a common unity between many religions. He basically created a division of either you are for him by living as God wants or else you are not. You cant say you are for something when you dont follow it haha. It was really a statement that points out the obvious natural occurance.
5) Be a nice person and love everyone (with a few exceptions.)
Well yes, that would be part of it. Sounds obvious Im sure....however, most people dont actually do it and the point is living it not knowing that its right.
All it takes is a dash of empathy to figure out how to cull this list down to the important things.
There are many more things that Jesus teaches regarding not loving the things of the world, turn the other cheek, many other things. You just have to study it all to find out what all he teaches that you need to change.
Xposure wrote:Paul teaches we are saved by faith like Abraham, well Abrahams faith can only be seen as following everything that God told him to do and it was only at a point after he started following that God said he truely believed.
So, how does one tell the difference between god talking to you, the devil talking to you, and the voices in your head talking to you?
Because all you really have to apply is what Jesus teaches by words and action. Jesus taught how to live the life that God approves of, you just implement and follow. You can tell the difference in what you are hearing because if its from God it will be suppored by the foundation He gives us through Jesus' teachings.
Or does god not talk to anyone these days?
Even God says in the OT that he only hears the prayers of people who are righteous of following His ways. With the exception of people praying out of true repentance. And yes, he does talk to people who show their love for Him by implementing his teachings.
Xposure wrote:You will never believe by hearing what people tell you, that is acceptance of information, not belief. The only way to completely have unwavering belief is to personally experience something. You have to start studying Jesus and implementing his teachings into your heart and life in order to personally experience what it is he can do for you and create true belief in him and God.
This can be restated as "just go along with it and you'll see."
Basically, you are right...you will never know until you try it. Its internal in people, the only way to find it is to try it as Jesus teaches to.
Xposure, are you implying that simmo didn't try hard enough or was insincere?
I know that most churches dont teach the true ways of Jesus or how to follow him and based on him saying he was saved but didnt believe in God then I think he was probably sincere but being lead wrong.
Xposure wrote:Before you read the Bible or anything else religious related you need to pray to God that you feel lost and unsure what is the truth and you need to ask Him to open your eyes, heart, and mind to His truth. Then start reading Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John and dont stop studying them until you have a firm grasp of what Jesus teaches.
Oh, and talk so as to purposely confuse people you talk to (Luke 8:10)
Yes people will only find the truth when reading with the right perspective of trying to learn to change themselves for God. That was the difference in his diciples he was speaking to as opposed to the others he was refering too in that scripture. Which is why I pointed him to ask to have the Truth revealed to him prior to reading.
Xposure wrote:If you would like to pm me with any questions regarding the Bible and what it teaches I would love for you too so please feel free.
Stephen
Xposure (Stephen), could you define the word "god" for me? Also, do you believe that god and Jesus are one and the same (according to your definition of the word "god" )?
-Triften
I believe that Jesus was a vessle that carried Gods spirit and allowed that spirit to fully shine better than anyone else ever. I believe that God raised him as a seal of approval that the teachings he left are ligit. And I have implemented them and they have changed my heart and life. Things I fought much of my life to change about myself thru my own abilities as well as Dr's vanished when I TRUELY came to God the way he wants us too instead of just saying a prayer and getting dunked in water and saying Im a Christian. Personally I dont feel the need to try and define the relationship between Jesus and God anymore than what Jesus and God both obviously stated in the Gospels and the OT. I dont have to understand their relationship anymore than what they obviously said and so I choose to not define it with concepts like the Holy Trinity.
What is God? He is the creator of the universe including the earth and all that lives on it. He wants us to be more of a perfected creation by living a certain way. Like a artist he is full of love for the creation that is in process and the creation that is perfected. He gives us freedom to follow His way or not so that we have free will. He is the being who when I decided I would implement His teachings He changed my heart, mind, body and thought process and saved me from myself. He doesnt define Himself because he wants people to search for Him. That is how he knows someone is sincere and capable of truely loving Him. He provides a road map to find him, people just dont implement it because they dont want to change.
Man, Im sorry if my post is confusing. I wasnt sure how to make my 3rd tier of quotes seperate so I just made it red. I hope its works ok.
Stephen
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Offline Triften asked - Xposure, are you implying that simmo didn't try hard enough or was insincere?
Xposure answered - I know that most churches dont teach the true ways of Jesus or how to follow him and based on him saying he was saved but didnt believe in God then I think he was probably sincere but being lead wrong.
Simmo says - Xposure, my Christianity was and to some extent still is very real. However at present I am finding it to be very hard to hang onto my faith in light of the type of evidence that you see presented throughout this website. I don't want to negate your or anyone else's personal experiences, however when put under close examination it is hard to back up many of the fundamental beliefs of mainstream Christianity. Which then leads to another point - where you state that most churches don't teach the true ways of Jesus, do you know those true ways? How is your way different from the ways of others? There are so many branches of Christianity that disparage others and claim that they know this supposed 'true way'.
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Offline Thanks for so many replies so quickly. Firstly on the subject of creation v evolution, I have done very little research on the subject so at this point my stated 'belief' in a creator god is coming from a point of ignorance regarding the scientific complexities of it all. Another issue I have which would be best answered by those that have left Christianity - my family are Christians, my friends are Christians, most of my life is wrapped up in Christian community. And in general I love these people, they love me, and I don't want to walk away from them.
I'm not saying it's a good thing if you do become more distant from family if you do decide to drop Christianity. But truth is not determined by who, or how many people believe in an idea.
As I stated previously regarding what I see as the positive aspects of Christianity, a change in my internal beliefs may have very little effect on my outward appearance to others. I will still endeavour to love others, but with quite likely a very different mindset behind it. To walk away from Christianity is a very difficult thing for me to do.
Is it because you'd have difficulty adjusting to a new mindset? Is it that you don't think you know enough?
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Offline Thanks for your comments Apokalipse - I presume from your avatar that you are in Australia, which is good to see because so am I. As far as my hanging on to Christianity, I think I am in a stage of gradual withdrawal from it, unless something or someone can really convince me that I should return to my faith. As to why walking away from Christianity is difficult, the first section that you quoted from me I think answers that . Most of my life is wrapped up in the church - my family, my friends, so it's not as simple as just walking away. As you have been an atheist your whole life, I don't think you could understand how difficult this is for me and others like me.
On a seperate matter, as an Australian atheist how well do you relate to the attitudes of other atheists on this forum? What I mean by that question is that I sense that in the United States (where I gather the majority of the forum contributors are) there is a real battle on between the Christians/conservatives and the secularists/atheists/liberals (a very generalised grouping) that causes a great level of animosity that is often reflected here. I don't see this as being much of an issue in Australia - certainly it is a far more secular society and the church do not seem to have anywhere near the same level of political clout that they do in the US.
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Offline Thanks for your comments Apokalipse - I presume from your avatar that you are in Australia, which is good to see because so am I. As far as my hanging on to Christianity, I think I am in a stage of gradual withdrawal from it, unless something or someone can really convince me that I should return to my faith. As to why walking away from Christianity is difficult, the first section that you quoted from me I think answers that . Most of my life is wrapped up in the church - my family, my friends, so it's not as simple as just walking away. As you have been an atheist your whole life, I don't think you could understand how difficult this is for me and others like me.
But still, I do think it is intellectually dishonest to remain a Christian because you have a Christian family. It may be hard
On a seperate matter, as an Australian atheist how well do you relate to the attitudes of other atheists on this forum? What I mean by that question is that I sense that in the United States (where I gather the majority of the forum contributors are) there is a real battle on between the Christians/conservatives and the secularists/atheists/liberals (a very generalised grouping) that causes a great level of animosity that is often reflected here. I don't see this as being much of an issue in Australia - certainly it is a far more secular society and the church do not seem to have anywhere near the same level of political clout that they do in the US.
Personally, I don't actually see a lot of religion being thrown around. So a lot of the time I don't really think about it.
Usually, I only think about religion if I actively go looking at it.
I think the reason I first started to become interested in religion, ironically, is because I have never really been exposed to it much in my early years. I always saw religion as irrational (even when I was in my first year of school, at an age of about 5 or so, I didn't think the idea of god made sense, or was realistic)
And it's because I saw religion as irrational, that I went looking for sites like this.
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Offline Simmo says - I don't want to negate your or anyone else's personal experiences, however when put under close examination it is hard to back up many of the fundamental beliefs of mainstream Christianity. Which then leads to another point - where you state that most churches don't teach the true ways of Jesus, do you know those true ways? How is your way different from the ways of others? There are so many branches of Christianity that disparage others and claim that they know this supposed 'true way'.
The main difference is that when you study Jesus and then look at chuch you will see that they look nothing like Jesus nor his own ministry. They do a poor job representing Jesus because they dont teach the same things that Jesus taught. I guess the best way to explain it is they wrap a lot of religion around Jesus and talk ABOUT Jesus....but they rarely actually just teach what Jesus teaches. They stay Biblical and talk about a lot of things in the Bible, but rarely build a strong foundation for people by studying what Jesus actually said. The reason is exactly what you have pointed out, they are building religion and massive organizational structure and that is hard to do based on what Jesus taught. Jesus doesnt have the kind of message that appeals to the masses who just want to show up somewhere and feel like they are now fine without changing. Jesus knew this and even said so himself.
Im not affiliated with a church or denomination, I just study the Bible a lot and implement what Jesus teaches into my life. I actually dont even go to church anymore because the more I studied the harder it was to actually find Jesus at church. My way is basicially like Jesus taught....his lessons are for the child like. You just read what he taught and do what he said...that simple. Most people just dont ever really read it and when they do they usually dont implement it. Lord means master that is why Jesus told a group of people...why do you call me Lord but dont obey my teachings? It is a contradiction because if you make him your Lord then by definition that means to follow his teachings. Most Christians do not do that and when someone truely starts they bring them down because it makes the other look bad like they are not trying hard enough. They try to mask it all by saying well your saved you dont have to actually do what he says blah blah blah. Its just like Pauls said...that the day would come that the people would just surround themselves with teachers who tell them what they want to hear. That is where Christianity is at and it is why it feels so devoid of true substance to peoples lives. That is why I had to get away from church to find Jesus.
Anyway, I know that everyone on this forum doesnt want a full scale religious type discussion here haha. If you want more detailed information feel free to pm me. I have tons of notes that I made while studying the Bible and I started turning it into a small book to give to people who want it. I would be glad to send you a copy....its free. Its geared toward helping people cut through all the religion, rituals, and doctrine to find the heart of Christianity because all of the other stuff is diverting their focus away from the heart of what its actually about.
If your interested like I said its something I give to people for free, just pm me a addy or if you dont want to give me your address I can email it to you but most people find it easier to read in paper form. Up to you.
Stephen
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Offline Would you still value "what Jesus actually said" as much if you discovered any of these were true?
A) Jesus was a man, but not god
B) Jesus was not a man or a god, but rather a character in a fictional story created in an attempt to keep large masses of people in order
C) Jesus may have been based partially on the life of a real person, maybe a Jewish minister, but the majority of the story was embellished or made up after the fact.
D) Outside of the bible, there are no pieces of historical evidence for a real Jesus that match the stories in the bible (ignoring that the stories in the bible don't agree either). No government papers, no history books, no letters, etc. from the "time of Jesus" outside of the bible that confirm his existance or deeds.
I'm just curious, if people think the stories would still be valuable even if the Jesus story isn't real.
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Offline simmo wrote:Simmo says - I don't want to negate your or anyone else's personal experiences, however when put under close examination it is hard to back up many of the fundamental beliefs of mainstream Christianity. Which then leads to another point - where you state that most churches don't teach the true ways of Jesus, do you know those true ways? How is your way different from the ways of others? There are so many branches of Christianity that disparage others and claim that they know this supposed 'true way'.
The main difference is that when you study Jesus and then look at chuch you will see that they look nothing like Jesus nor his own ministry. They do a poor job representing Jesus because they dont teach the same things that Jesus taught. I guess the best way to explain it is they wrap a lot of religion around Jesus and talk ABOUT Jesus....but they rarely actually just teach what Jesus teaches.
Otherwise, you'd have parents killing their children for disobeying, and you'd have slaughters of non-Christians
According to the bible, you must stone to death anybody who works on a Sunday.
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Offline Xposure wrote:It's a good thing no church actually teaches what the Bible says Jesus teachessimmo wrote:Simmo says - I don't want to negate your or anyone else's personal experiences, however when put under close examination it is hard to back up many of the fundamental beliefs of mainstream Christianity. Which then leads to another point - where you state that most churches don't teach the true ways of Jesus, do you know those true ways? How is your way different from the ways of others? There are so many branches of Christianity that disparage others and claim that they know this supposed 'true way'.
The main difference is that when you study Jesus and then look at chuch you will see that they look nothing like Jesus nor his own ministry. They do a poor job representing Jesus because they dont teach the same things that Jesus taught. I guess the best way to explain it is they wrap a lot of religion around Jesus and talk ABOUT Jesus....but they rarely actually just teach what Jesus teaches.
Otherwise, you'd have parents killing their children for disobeying, and you'd have slaughters of non-Christians
According to the bible, you must stone to death anybody who works on a Sunday.
Actually Jesus doesnt teach anything like that. You are thinking of the religion that Jesus was speaking out against and trying to change.
On a side note the "Sabbath Day of Rest" you are refering to is Saturday not Sunday. That was also part of the religion that Jesus was working to change (the Jewish religion)....not Christianity.
Stephen
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Offline Apokalipse wrote:Actually Jesus doesnt teach anything like that. You are thinking of the religion that Jesus was speaking out against and trying to change.Xposure wrote:It's a good thing no church actually teaches what the Bible says Jesus teachessimmo wrote:Simmo says - I don't want to negate your or anyone else's personal experiences, however when put under close examination it is hard to back up many of the fundamental beliefs of mainstream Christianity. Which then leads to another point - where you state that most churches don't teach the true ways of Jesus, do you know those true ways? How is your way different from the ways of others? There are so many branches of Christianity that disparage others and claim that they know this supposed 'true way'.
The main difference is that when you study Jesus and then look at chuch you will see that they look nothing like Jesus nor his own ministry. They do a poor job representing Jesus because they dont teach the same things that Jesus taught. I guess the best way to explain it is they wrap a lot of religion around Jesus and talk ABOUT Jesus....but they rarely actually just teach what Jesus teaches.
Otherwise, you'd have parents killing their children for disobeying, and you'd have slaughters of non-Christians
According to the bible, you must stone to death anybody who works on a Sunday.
"Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I [Jesus] tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three." (Luke 12:51-2)
"Think not that I [Jesus] have come to send peace on earth: I come not to send peace, but a sword." (Matthew 10:34)
"...for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." (Matthew 26:52)
"...and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." (Luke 22:36)
On a side note the "Sabbath Day of Rest" you are refering to is Saturday not Sunday. That was also part of the religion that Jesus was working to change (the Jewish religion)....not Christianity.Stephem
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Offline Xposure wrote:Have you read the bible lately?Apokalipse wrote:Actually Jesus doesnt teach anything like that. You are thinking of the religion that Jesus was speaking out against and trying to change.Xposure wrote:It's a good thing no church actually teaches what the Bible says Jesus teachessimmo wrote:Simmo says - I don't want to negate your or anyone else's personal experiences, however when put under close examination it is hard to back up many of the fundamental beliefs of mainstream Christianity. Which then leads to another point - where you state that most churches don't teach the true ways of Jesus, do you know those true ways? How is your way different from the ways of others? There are so many branches of Christianity that disparage others and claim that they know this supposed 'true way'.
The main difference is that when you study Jesus and then look at chuch you will see that they look nothing like Jesus nor his own ministry. They do a poor job representing Jesus because they dont teach the same things that Jesus taught. I guess the best way to explain it is they wrap a lot of religion around Jesus and talk ABOUT Jesus....but they rarely actually just teach what Jesus teaches.
Otherwise, you'd have parents killing their children for disobeying, and you'd have slaughters of non-Christians
According to the bible, you must stone to death anybody who works on a Sunday.
"Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I [Jesus] tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three." (Luke 12:51-2)
"Think not that I [Jesus] have come to send peace on earth: I come not to send peace, but a sword." (Matthew 10:34)
"...for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." (Matthew 26:52)
"...and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." (Luke 22:36)Quote:Does that somehow excuse it being there?On a side note the "Sabbath Day of Rest" you are refering to is Saturday not Sunday. That was also part of the religion that Jesus was working to change (the Jewish religion)....not Christianity.Stephem
Yes I have read the Bible many times. Jesus didnt teach to kill our children for disobeying or anything else. Nor did he teach any punishment regarding the Sabbath. As a matter of fact he was persecuted for "working" on the Sabbath by healing people.
Yes, his teachings cause division in families many times because family members often times dont support eachother through different religious belief changes and that is what he was bringing.
His quote in Matthew was him repremanding one of his disciples for attacking with a sword out of anger when he hadn't been attacked.
In addition to give context to your quote regarding his telling his disciples to take a sword. He taught that since they will kill the Teacher they will certainly kill the students. It was a means of self defense if they were attacked by the sword.
You dont understand the OT. But that is understandable, neither did the Jews. In Jesus' day they were going to stone a lady for adultry and Jesus stopped it. The Jews no longer discipline like that so I suppose Jesus was more correct in his understanding and teachings of the OT than the Jews would like to give him credit for hahaha.
Stephen
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Offline Would you still value "what Jesus actually said" as much if you discovered any of these were true?
A) Jesus was a man, but not god
B) Jesus was not a man or a god, but rather a character in a fictional story created in an attempt to keep large masses of people in order
C) Jesus may have been based partially on the life of a real person, maybe a Jewish minister, but the majority of the story was embellished or made up after the fact.
D) Outside of the bible, there are no pieces of historical evidence for a real Jesus that match the stories in the bible (ignoring that the stories in the bible don't agree either). No government papers, no history books, no letters, etc. from the "time of Jesus" outside of the bible that confirm his existance or deeds.
I'm just curious, if people think the stories would still be valuable even if the Jesus story isn't real.
Man i had this real long post typed up and the page messed up and lost it 
Well I had a bunch of info on your A, B, C, D sections. But i suppose what I had at the bottom sums it up and I dont have time to retype it so this should cover things.
Im just going to answer the last question because in reality is pretty much answers the other questions as well. The only way to have true unwavering belief in something is to personally experience it in some form. I have true belief in God and Jesus' teachings because after implementing them they have changed my life and things about me. Struggles like sexual addiction that I tried to stop nearly my whole life using my own abilities and well as Dr's I was finally saved from. If all I had was just people saying to believe and I just tell myself in my head that I believe then that wouldnt really be believing, it would be accepting information. I dont believe in Jesus because of the glitz and glamor of his miracles and such. I do however accept them and feel they are true, I think with such a radicle message for the time and location that for anyone to follow him or believe him they would have had to experience these miricles.
Anyway, point being that I dont believe and make Jesus the Lord over my life and live to his teachings because of the miricles. As a matter of fact even if they werent in the Bible to begin with I would still believe in him because of his teachings and the experiences I have gone through because of them.
Hope that answers your question!
Stephen
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Offline Xposure - What are the experiences that have changed you, if you do not mind me asking?
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Offline Also related to that question, how do you know that these experiences are "Jesus" and not either coincidence or a bit of a placebo effect, like for example.. if you believe Jesus always helps you, whenever you gain you'd just assign that accomplishment to Jesus and not yourself.
But yes, you did answer MY question. I suspected in the face of such evidence you'd remain in the same position.
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Offline A few things, for what they're worth (and forgive me if I'm reiterating what others have already said):
(1) Many, if not most, people never reach the point of actually thinking and questioning the received wisdom of others, which is unfortunate. The certainty that a particular religion is true espoused by so many is both troubling and perplexing. However, you are apparently beating the odds by listening to your rational side rather than giving in to emotion, and for that I applaud you. All we are saaaaaaying, is give logic a channnnnnnnce . . . .
(2) I would like to suggest that your perception of the good side of Christianity is disproportionate to what actually exists - remember that you have to offset the instances of Christians working to improve the lot of others against the instances of "Christians" bombing abortion clinics, forbidding the use of birth control even though it would not just prevent unwanted pregnancies but also save lives, etc. Consider also the possibility that those working to do good do so not because of their religious convictions but instead because they are fundamentally decent and compassionate people. As much as I hate posing rhetorical questions to make a point, how many of these people would work to help others even if they weren't believers?
(3) Thank you, REVLyle, for making so many points for us. Res ipsa loquitur, no further sarcasm required.- Login to post comments
Offline I think this thread has run it's course and so I thought I should make some final comments on it. Since I first posted my thoughts several weeks ago I have been able to obtain so much information from those who have commented on this thread as well as looking through the other discussions held on other threads. Much of it has been pretty heavy and difficult to really grasp (especially some of deludedgod's articles) but they have all really helped contribute to me gaining a much greater understanding of how many things can be adequately explained outside of god. I had hoped for more input from Christians, however they seem to come and go pretty quickly when the questions get too hard. I have been a very regular visitor here over these past weeks, however I am now at the stage when I need to move onto a bit of a different phase in my journey away from god (using little g god now) whereby I will have to work through how I deal with family and friends as I walk away from the church, which is going to be complicated. I have started to read up on things at www.exchristian.net and I will share my story there and see if I can get some good advice from people who have been through similar experiences to me. I'm sure I will still come back to this site from time to time, particularly when I need information to back up an argument, however I thought I should just thank you all for your contributions and assistance. I still not sure how to describe myself at this point - I think to label me a true atheist or agnostic is probably still not accurate, as I still have this nagging idea/hope that maybe eternal life is possible. But it is going to take something really miraculous to bring me back to being the bible believing Christian that I once was. So thankyou again to all of you, it had been invaluable and most appreciated.
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Offline I think this thread has run it's course and so I thought I should make some final comments on it. Since I first posted my thoughts several weeks ago I have been able to obtain so much information from those who have commented on this thread as well as looking through the other discussions held on other threads. Much of it has been pretty heavy and difficult to really grasp (especially some of deludedgod's articles) but they have all really helped contribute to me gaining a much greater understanding of how many things can be adequately explained outside of god. I had hoped for more input from Christians, however they seem to come and go pretty quickly when the questions get too hard. I have been a very regular visitor here over these past weeks, however I am now at the stage when I need to move onto a bit of a different phase in my journey away from god (using little g god now) whereby I will have to work through how I deal with family and friends as I walk away from the church, which is going to be complicated. I have started to read up on things at www.exchristian.net and I will share my story there and see if I can get some good advice from people who have been through similar experiences to me. I'm sure I will still come back to this site from time to time, particularly when I need information to back up an argument, however I thought I should just thank you all for your contributions and assistance. I still not sure how to describe myself at this point - I think to label me a true atheist or agnostic is probably still not accurate, as I still have this nagging idea/hope that maybe eternal life is possible. But it is going to take something really miraculous to bring me back to being the bible believing Christian that I once was. So thankyou again to all of you, it had been invaluable and most appreciated.
Glad to hear it, Simmo. I wish you the best, and I hope you're able to overcome that "nagging idea/hope" in time.
I suspect it's just a residual feeling from all the years of theism. I've been an atheist for years now and sometimes I'm still surprised to find little bits of "supernatural thinking" floating around in my brain. I can't speak for you, but judging from my experience alone, I think it will evaporate over time.
Lots of luck!
A place common to all will be maintained by none. A religion common to all is perhaps not much different.
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No, there's no problem with my observation. Hitler was a Christian. Christians killed other Christians. That was my observation.
And if you want to debate about his motives, I'll post the quote once again so you can read it this time:
Yes, Hitler viewed communism and jews as twin evils, but you can't say he wasn't motivated by Christianity. He was influenced by the teachings of his church.
(Exerpt by Wayne A. Meeks, Woolsey Professor of Biblical Studies Yale University)
Exactly my point.
I'm infallible. I don't know why you can't remember that.
The point is even if you can point to Christians that killed other Christians, I can point to atheists (Stalin, Hoxha) that also killed Christians.
Hitler hated Jews as a race. His motivations strive form Eugenics. (Hitler conviently forgot Christ was Jewish).
The main point is any group has experienced persecution at one time. Bringing in the politics (Rev saying Christians are persecuted, you saying Hitler was Christian etc...) changes nothing as to whether or not the beliefs are true.
Christians being persecuted doesn't prove Christianity.
Christians persecuting doesn't dis-prove Christianity.
Cpt is exactly right. Each group has been persecuted. I could give you statistics for Christian persecution for this last century but you would not accept them so what is the point.
Nero performed the worst atrocities upon his victims; he did not just kill Christians, he wanted to make them suffer first. Nero enjoyed dipping the Christians in wax, and impaling them on poles around his palace, he would then light them on fire, and yell: "Now you truly are the light of the world." Nero also performed many other kinds of torture, often killing them in the Circus Maximus in front of large crowds of spectators where he did some of his most gruesome murders. Here he would wrap Christians up in animal skins and throw them to lions, or dogs who would then tear these men and women apart in front of thousands of entertained spectators. At other times he would crucify them, and after the crowd would get bored, he would set the Christians on fire.
We have no idea how many Christians lost their life under the Neronian persecution, but Historian Harold Mattingly tells us that Nero's persecution "lasted several years, was not confined to Rome but was practiced throughout the Empire, and cost the lives of a very large number [of Christians]." We also know that Nero's policy of persecution was practiced by many subsequent Emperors such as: Domitian, Valerian, and Dioclesian; who instituted the great persecution which would see thousand if not millions go through the worst kinds of tortures. One very interesting thing is that those Christians who were Roman Citizens did not face the same terrible death as Christians who were not. The Roman Government, by law, could not torture Roman citizens. The Apostle Paul, the most well known of the Christian evangelists, had to be beheaded because he was a citizen, and was therefore saved from much of the pain and torture, inflicted on the others.
FULL ARTICLE AT:
http://www.boisestate.edu/history/ncasner/hy210/nero.htm
Your writings are pointless.
Let me be a little more clear. You need to move up to history books for grown-ups. Come on. You can do it.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
That wasn't my point.
My point was to stop bringing politics into this. It is decitful and dishonest. I can name incidences where Christians persecuted others.
Christians being persecuted does not prove Christianity.
Pineapple, I agree with you. Who killed who doesn't prove the truth of religion. That's not what my original point was. My point was that Simmo should do some research on how Christianity become the dominant religion. This is important because for Simmo, he's caught up questioning if this one religion is based on fact or not, when it would be helpful to realize the reason he is only concerned with Christianity. The popularity of the religion needs to be discounted in the evalution of its "truth".
For example, if you're living in America, why are the majority of its citizens Christian? Because the original inhabitants of the country were murdered by Christians or otherwise forced to convert, followed by intolerance for opposing views and the various branches of Christianity being forced upon children and their children's children, and so on. Then the US Government began to forget the separation of church and state and favor the Christian religion, which of course helped to establish a religious stranglehold. Even now, we have to go to court to try and convince the government to separate church and state.
And Rev, all you're saying is that Christians were persecuted. So what? The fact is, Christians killed their way to top. Now, in modern times, they are using terrorist tactics to scare their way to the top (you better believe or else, when you die... you will suffer!)
Not one single time before you entered into the conversation have I talked about persecution. Again, Pineapple - you didn't have to correct anything I wrote last. I agreed with you. Persecution has happened to Christians and they have been a part of it. I readily admitted that people have done things in the name of Jesus Christ that I am ashamed of. It doesn't prove anything. My reason for posting the article about Nero was to prove the point that we could all do that. We can all talk about how "WE" have been mistreated.
As far as government goes - let me get this straight. I want to elect Christian people because I believe that we share the same view of life and the same morals. You want to elect who?????? People that you agree with how they think and how they view life. Why is it wrong for Christians to want the same thing? I have seen on this website that atheists eventually want it to be against the law for me to tell my children about God. How is that freedom? How is that separation of church and state? They want for me to be locked up and to be mentally evaluated because I believe in God? How is that separation of church and state? So please do not act like you want freedom for all. From what I have seen on this website - you want it your way.
You have Christian views forced on you. I have views that I do not like forced on me. I do not agree with abortion (we are not going to discuss why) and yet I have to abide by the law of the land AND I have to help pay for them through my tax dollars. You will scream that it is the right for women to have abortions - but is it their right to do it on my dime? Evidently so. So, please don't play the part of the victim.
I am not sure how Christians are forcing our views on people in the republic of the US. We go to the polls. We vote for people that we agree with on many issues (economic, social, foreign policy). You go to the polls. You vote for people you agree with on many issues (economic, social, foreign policy). We are wrong and you are right?????
You want the laws changed - vote in people like you that will change the laws. I abide by laws that I do not agree with. So please do not tell me how it is unfair.
Lastly, we are scaring our way to the top???? Dude, get a grip. The Bible was written 2000+ years ago and we preach what was written then, but now we are scaring people. Do you see anyone here scared here about Hell. You guys don't even believe it exists. I am trying to warn people about it, but of course you think I am wrong. Christians didn't recently make up the idea of hell. This is just like people on this website talking about how we brain wash people and then they brag about how many people are atheists who used to be Christian. If we really brain wash people - according to you guys we stink at it so what are you worried about. It ain't working.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Take another look at your views on God.
I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind.
Stop attacking a straw man. My point is not about people being mistreated. Let me repeat the point I'm making:
Christians killed their way to the top. Christianity is the dominant religion not because of its veracity, but because earlier Christians killed off those of other beliefs, suppressed the freedom to believe in other things (or lack belief) using torture, lethal force, terrorism, and eventually government favoritism, and continued to spread Christianity by indoctrinating their children with and their children's children, and so on.
Therefore, Simmo should discount the popularity of Christianity in his effort to find the truth, and he should examine other religions and myths as equals to Christianity.
That's the point I'm making.
Secondly, how are you going find some obscure comment from another atheist online and say that I believe the same thing? You are going to tell me what I want based on what you've read throughout the website?
Wrong.
Abortion has nothing to do with separation of church and state. Next issue.
Tell me who I can vote for that will get "In God We Trust" off our currency and "One nation under god" removed from the pledge.
Recently, and only recently, do we have one atheist congressman, and he is the first in history. One atheist versus the rest of congress. Do you really think an atheist can be elected president?
Not to mention, how am I supposed to change things by voting if you haven't been able to change your precious anti-abortion law by voting and your beliefs represent that of the majority? Yeah, it's that simple! Just vote and you can change the world! That's why Bush is still in office, because votes really count.
Secondly, how are you going find some obscure comment from another atheist online and say that I believe the same thing? You are going to tell me what I want based on what you've read throughout the website?
Wrong.
And yet you ascribe Christianity to the evils done by Hitler. Not even close.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
So you admit you were wrong? Great.
I don't. I said that Hitler was a Christian and his ability to kill jews without remorse was influenced by the teachings of the Church of Rome, which taught that jews had killed god, allowing Hitler to believe he was acting as "the hand of god".
Now please tell me how that has nothing to do with Christianity. Next, tell me that I'm ascribing Christianity to the Inquisition and how that's "not even close".
I can point to black and spanish people that kill Christians. Your comparing apples and oranges.
Where is Hamby?
I do know that I serve a just and merciful God and He does what is right.
This is one of thethings that I am having great difficulty with. How is eternal punishment truly justice for what we do or do not do during our finite life on earth? If I steal a pencil and am sent to prison for 50 years, is that justice or excessive punishment that does not fit the crime? I am sure you will come back with something along the lines that we are all sinners and are therefore deserving the wrath of God, but honestly, if you really think about this, is it truly justice for those that do not accept Christ to burn in hell forever? How is it right for God to have allowed billions to be born into this world, knowing that they would go to hell for eternity upon their death? That's not the actions of a good and merciful God.
So, I posted this, verbatim, on a messageboard with a bunch of christians, and asked them to answer to the best of their ability. I got 3 answers. One from a dude named Levi, one from a dudette named Christy, one from a dude named Justin.
Look at my blog! It's awesome!
I'm also on this Twitter thing