As DG said a meme is a unit of information. If information can be said to exist then memes can exist.

I know the history of the idea. I'm more interested in its veracity.

Seems pretty fuzzy for a concept that is used regularly to denegrate theism. The extension of memes in to the realm of a mind-virus and such is on pretty shakey ground if this is all it is.

But what is it that mutates? In DNA, it is clear what changes. When it comes to cultural issues, we can't even agree upon definitions of primary concepts. Define justice in a universally acceptable manner.

This cuts to the core of materialism and such. At least with DNA, the proteins in your DNA match exactly those in mine, even if the sequence is differerent. I can map my genes onto yours and find out exactly how they differ. But for every idea or concept, there is no mapping of my neurons onto yours. We can map regions of my brain to yours, but the neurons and synapses do not have the same physical structure (similar, but not same). So the idea or meme is only loosely tied to a physical structure and can be transmitted across many different structures if you include physical media. But surely the meme doesn't exist on the paper in a book at the library as it sits on the shelf waiting to be read.

Interesting, yes, but IMHO, not scientific.

I suppose I might have to add that to my list of things to read. I had trouble with "The Selfish Gene". I just found Dawkins writing style turgid and boring.  It made sense conceptually, but I didn't enjoy the read.

I think this is my issue with the meme concept. It has taken on a life of its own, almost like a pop-psychology term. A sort of meme meme. I'm not sure that it actually calrifies anything. 

"Just do it."

"Are we there yet?"

"I've fallen and I can't reach my (fill in the blank)!"

You really didn't need help with this, did you?

How is it not scientific? Starting with a phrase, hypothesizing its effect, observing applications, gathering data, measuring effectiveness. Developing a theory such as 'marketing' to aid in future applications of other hypotheses.

WTF?

I'm going to leave the declaration of 'materialism' alone in your initial post.

"Am I not merciful?" instead of "At my signal, unleash hell." Oops. I forgot. that was the original script. Unfortunately, more often I have seen people use 'On' which follows with a theory of 'memetics' (call it a pseudo-theory if it pleases your oh-so materialistic sensibilities) that a small alteration to the original does not affect the whole of the message. More errors in the transmission could affect it such as: changing 'signal' to 'sign' or 'hell' to 'terror' etc.

How one can sit behind their computer and decry 'memes' under the guise of materialism while maintaining a theistic belief is beyond me.

For the most part, I like you wavefreak, but sometimes I walk away from the pc shaking my head.

I like "The God Delusion" much more than I did "The Selfish Gene". One is meant to be more dry than the others, although, thats besides the point of this conversation.

I think science can delve into some abstractions at the level of a hypothesis. To call it completely unscientific might be unjustified. At least it can be studied on some real level. Also, it seems to offer an interesting view of human linguistics and somewhat social evolution (probably another less than concrete notion). Would you call psychology a science? I would be inclined too.

So is there a body of research developing around the concept of memes or is it just a convenient framework for discussing social constructs? Is there a peer reviewed meme journal? To what branch of science does the study of memes belong?

I think this gets closer to my lack of satisfaction with the idea. It lacks rigour and hence is easily tossed about. I suspect that Dawkins never meant for it to be more than an analog for how ideas might persist across generations but it has been picked up and enlarged into more than its original intent. 

Correct.

I'm a software engineer, so I guess I just see memetics as another analysis methodology for the study of cultural information and cultural evolution.  There are many analysis methodologies one can choose when developing software systems, one may give you better insight into the problem domain than others. 

I can remember back when object oriented analysis/design was poo-poo'd on and now it's arguably the best way to develop software.  Object orientation simply gave us the tools/framework to better understand and model the problem domain of the software system being developed...this is how I see memes/memetics.

Isn't the study of memetics, at least, a real observation of how ideas have been passed from person to person to different cultures, as well as the survival of ideas across time? What would you classify it as if it is not scientific?

Just dropping a link.

http://users.lycaeum.org/~sputnik/Memetics

darth_josh:

I've tried that link a few times, and I can't seem to connect to anywhere.  Could you either tell me what was on it, or at least tell me what site to Google for?

Conor

________________________________________________________________________________________

"Faith does not fear reason."--Pope Pius XII

"But it should!"--Me

I don't care much for the term "meme" either. I'm having a little trouble digesting it.

I think this is the key point. Memetics has struggled to find its place in science, but the concept has been elevated to the level profound truth in popular culture. What is a mind virus? There is no scientific basis for such a construct and yet it has been latched onto as a pointed and damning description of theism.  The idea of theism as a disease is emotionally satisfying to many atheists, but using memetics to justify that position is no more intellectually sound than the claims made by Christians.

 touché?

What part of 'testable' and 'observable' did we miss?

L. Ron made bank on his idea.

Vernon Howell was doing ok until that pesky ATF thing.

Just because your god is different in your mind doesn't exclude him/her/it from the same analyses.

 warning dangerous meme infestation follows!

Meme :

“
Brain virtual virus exploiting the hosts possessions or interests by attaching to the hosts data structure
”
You can measure a meme in KB or MB like every data structure however binary data measurement maybe not completely applicable to human brains.

Memes belong to the discipline of informatics and the  book I’m writing on.
Memes are data/information they are a pattern in materials (materialism)

Ok for people who don’t understand  informatics here are some internet memes

My favorite  Cockmongler :

http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/Cockmongler

LONG CAT :
http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/Longcat

Lemon Party :
(Na it would be spam and disgusting to)

GT :
http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/Goofy_Time

Internet Hate machine :
its in my picture image (must spread the virus , must spread the virus  )
http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/INTERNET_HATE_MACHINE

This maybe explains :
http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/Meme

OK. If humans are machines we are nothing else then part of the operation system so  viruses are the next logical step. To disprove a meme you must prove  :
-The non mechaniti of the human body
-The non existence of information and data
-The non existence of human logic
-The non existence of human memories
-The non existence of learning , word of mouth and internet phenomena

To analyze a meme you need the combined knowledge from informatics , psychology , neuroscience and sociology.

BTW : the acronym WTF is a internet meme

All You memes belong to US .   

    another meme with music http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNHkOryXosI

Please allow me to introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
I've been around for a long long year stolen many a man's soul and faith
I was around Jesus Christ had his moment of doubt and pain
Made damn sure that Pilate washed his hands and sealed his fate
Pleased to meet you hope you guess my name
But what's puzzling you is the nature of my game

Stuck around St. Petersburg when I saw it was a time for a change
Killed the Tzar and his ministers; Anastaria screamed in vain
I rode a tank held a gen'rals rank when the blitzkrieg
raged and the bodies stank
Pleased to meet you hope your guess my name, oh yeah
Ah what's puzzling you is the nature of my game, oh yeah

I watched the glee while your kings and queens fought for
ten decades for the Gods they made
I shouted out "who killed the Kennedy's?" when after all it was you and me
Let me please introduce myself I'm a man of wealth and taste
And I lay traps for troubadors who get killed before they reach Bombay

Pleased to meet you hope you guess my name, oh yeah
But what's puzzling you is the nature of my game, oh yeah

Pleased to meet you hope you guess my name
But what's confusin you is just the nature of my game

Just as every cop is a criminal
And all the sinners saints
As heads is tails
Just call me Lucifer
'Cause I'm in need of some restraint

So if you meet me Have some courtesy
Have some sympathy, and some taste
Use all your well-learned politesse
Or I'll lay your soul to waste, um yeah

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, um yeah
But what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, um mean it, get down

Woo, who
Oh yeah, get on down
Oh yeah
Oh yeah!

Tell me baby, what's my name
Tell me honey, can ya guess my name
Tell me baby, what's my name
I tell you one time, you're to blame

oh, who
woo, woo
Woo, who
Woo, woo
Woo, who, who
Woo, who, who
Oh, yeah

What's my name
Tell me, baby, what's my name
Tell me, sweetie, what's my name

Woo, who, who
Woo, who, who

I didn’t read the SG but memes supposed to mutate like in the old saying evolve or die ?
BTW the cat in the top of the page is a meme so I decided to create a hybrid meme :
http://img525.imageshack.us/my.php?image=internetharesquadbg8.png

[img=http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/3785/internetharesquadbg8.th.png]

Well I always asserted humans are machines.  Well if were the opposite way then doctors/biology/medication/genetics/DNA is a fabrication and can’t worked. Every system that can be analyzed , categorized , manipulated and understudy supposed to be by definition a machine. This is the argument for the mechanity of humans and NO I don’t derived this from memes because I learned about memes 300 days ago.

To answer you question of data I try hard a data/information are a pattern that is readable by one ( if the only device is the device that has written this information  )or more devices and gives a similar result in the reading device (humans included to). Here you go I just defined data/information you can apply this definition to writings , operating systems and so on. You seam to misunderstand “chemical reactions” are a system or a method of storing patterns.

O and I can prove that information exist when we don’t exist here I simply ask another device that doesn’t have such braises (a computer ).

Check and mat WF.

 I see in your sig that English is not your first language so I'm going to assume we will make mistakes in understanding each other. I won't take it personally if you won't.

An assertion is not a proof. I can assert that god exists. This does not make it so.

The DNA molecule exists as a physical entity, I don't need to call it DNA for it to exist. 

Theology is system that can be "analyzed , categorized , manipulated and understudy". So is theology a machine?

But we already have a unit of information - a bit. Why do we need a new word? Good science clarifies. And what ids the "unit" a meme refers to? What is the atomic meme?

Every one of these exist because we built them. Were it not for our perception they would never have come into existence. Again, your "proof" is linked to your perception. You can't separate the two.  And computers don't percieve information. On the lowest level, the are a set of finite operations on a finite set of binary numbers. A computer doesn't know or care that when it adds binary number A to binary number B that it results in a nuclear missle launch or a winning lottery number. 

Your move. 

This could prove to be an interesting conversation  soI want to spend some time making sure we understand each others terminology. Can you give me a concise definition of a machine? 

Are variable inputs required? Classical machines like a screw, wheel or lever seem to have singular inputs and outputs. Your definition seems to be emphasizing information processing machines. Is this deliberate?

See this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_machine

You seem to be using a definition of machine that is your own, or at least restricted to a certain type of machine. Is this your intent?

Ops  got a little frustrated the point is this article fails to mention other extra parts to thus constructs with actually make them machines
(humans , gravity , external forces)

EDIT

OK rape time I'm going away for some hours and return tomorrow

To drive my point even more clear I give you a fragment of the article
to show that its not so 100% clear
"Variations to the list of simple machines:

    * Some say there are only five simple machines, arguing that the wedge is a moving inclined plane.
    * Others further simplify the list to four saying that the screw is a helical inclined plane. This position is less accepted because a screw simultaneously converts a rotational force (torque) to a linear force.
    * Some go even further to insist that only two simple machines exist, as a pulley and wheel and axle can be viewed as unique forms of levers, leaving only the lever and the inclined plane.[1][2]"