How does an athiest explain something such as this:
Offline TESTIMONY #1
A young boy was in a bedroom with his sister and her friend. The girls found their father's gun and started playing with it. The gun went off and went right through the young boys head. The boys grandmother called the pastor. Rev. David Shatwell (although the man doesn't matter). Bro. Shatwell prayed about this, went to the hospital and saw this boy. The doctors were saying that certain parts of the brain that were used for certain motor functions were damaged and the boy would not be able to do certain things anymore. Bro. Shatwell went in that hospital room and did just what he was moved through prayer to do. He pointed his finger at the boy and exclaimed. "I COMMAND YOU IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST TO LIVE, LIVE I SAY LIVE, LIVE AND DO NOT DIE! IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST". The mother is on the other side of the bed holding her son's hand. She starts screaming saying "HE SQUEEZED MY HAND!". the boy had been unconscious. Before this point the doctors were not going to operate, but they decided to, still claiming that the boy would have disabilities. That young boy very shortly afterwards was completely recovered, 100% healthy no disabilities.
TESTIMONY #2
A man felt moved though prayer and fasting that he was to take a bus all the way to California, he had been living in Mississippi. He went to the bus station and asked for a ticket. The amount of money the lady told him, he did not have, and the bus was going to leave soon. So he sat down and he prayed. 5 minutes before the bus left, a stranger walked into the station and called on his name (stanger meaning these men have never met before), handed him an envelope with his name on it, and it just happened to have the exact amount of money that he needed in it. So he gets on the bus, and a good while later they cross the state line to california. They are in the middle of the desert, and the man feels he needs to get off the bus right there in the middle of nowhere. So he does, and he is standing in the middle of nowhere on the highway. Shortly afterwards a vehicle drives up, a man opens the passenger side door, and asks "are you the man im lookin for?" and the driver explains how he had been praying about a preacher, and God told him to start driving down the highway and he will find the man to preach on sunday.
TESTIMONY #3
A man, through prayer and fasting felt that he was supposed to go stand out on I-10 and start preaching. He did so. He stood on the side of the road and preached into the darkess. 2 years later a man comes into his church. This man testifies that 2 years ago he was a homeless bum living on the highway, then one night he heard a man preach from the Bible on the highway and it changed his life forever.
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
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Why should we believe that the book of Acts is an accurate historical account? You're trying to preach to a choir that's not here. You're going to need to show that the stories about the Holy Spirit in the book of Acts are reliable before you can use them to convince us of anything. Showing that part of Acts is reliable is not enough; the author could have gotten some things historically correct while making errors in other places. Surely if you had other examples that would work better than quoting Acts you'd tell us. I've seen people speak in tongues twice. I know it wasn't a sign of God, because I know the neurological, psychological, sociological, etc. reasons by people do that. It's just total gibberish, and people who claim to be able to translate just make it up as they go, either intentionally or by believing what comes from their own creative processes is really God.
If you want us to believe that God works through people, he needs to do things that can't be faked. Putting a solution to the Riemann hypothesis or P vs. NP problem or an explanation of genetics in the Bible somewhere would be enough to convince even a hardened skeptic that the book was written by someone who had knowledge beyond that of anyone on Earth at the time the book was written. Instead we get verses about how rabbits or rock hyraes chew cud and that some insects have only four legs. The Bible is nothing special. Also, about that carbon dating thing, how do you feel about being shown wrong by a factor of ten?
I prayed a lot of times as a Christian, never felt much of anything. Oh, right. This is where you'll tell me that I wasn't doing it right! You have to fast, too, a topic which never really came up much at the Christian high school I went to. There was still a lunch hour and all. It must be my fault that God didn't listen. It's always the fault of the person praying, isn't it? If your kid dies of cancer, you didn't pray hard enough! If you don't get that raise, you didn't pray hard enough! God only listens to those who really really really mean it! Is that really the message you want to tell to people in despair? "Sorry your kid died, it's your fault!" Also, about that carbon dating thing, how do you feel about being shown wrong by a factor of ten?
Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.
FIRST OF ALL, I AM FAMILIAR WITH "GLOSSOLALIA". THAT IS NOT BIBLICAL TONGUES. I DON'T THINK YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT BIBLICAL TONGUES ARE. WHEN THE 120 IN THE UPPER ROOM HAD THE HOLY GHOST FALL UPON THEM, THEY SPOKE IN A LANGUAGE(S) THAT THE PEOPLE IN JERUSALEM UNDERSTOOD AND WERE CONFUSED BECAUSE GALILEANS DIDN'T SPEAK THAT LANGUAGE. TRUE SPEAKING IN TONGUES IS WHEN YOU SPEAK A LANGUAGE THAT YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND BUT ITS A REAL LANGUAGE NONE THE LESS. THERE HAVE BEEN PLENTY ACCOUNTS OF FOREIGNERS THAT HAVE NO CLUE HOW TO SPEAK OR UNDERSTAND ENGLISH, HAVE SPOKEN IT WITH THE INFILLING OF THE HOLY GHOST.
SECOND, NOBODY EVER SAID YOU PRAYED WRONG.
LET ME GIVE YOU A LITTLE TESTIMONY OF MY OWN. A FEW WEEKS AGO I SOLD MY XBOX 360 BECAUSE I WANT A WII INSTEAD. THAT WEDNESDAY WHEN I WENT TO CHURCH, I FELT THE HOLY GHOST MOVE ME TO PUT ALL THAT MONEY IN THE OFFERING INSTEAD. LAST NIGHT, I WAS HANDED, BY MY FRIENDS MOTHER, THAT SAME AMOUNT OF MONEY.
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
You realize it's christmas time, right?
Anyway, your argument is 'you gave money to god, and god gave it right back'
Not sure what's so amazing about that? What's the lesson, that the benifit of charity is that you don't lose anything? Greed is good?
I thought the point of charity was to surrender something and to learn to value internal rewards over external ones...
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
Are you familiar with the caps lock key?
I will say this, though, it's refreshing to find a Christian who acknowledges that the phenomenon of glossolalia is not what (supposedly) happened at Pentecost. The problem is that your example, of a person speaking a language they don't know, isn't quite what happened at Pentecost either. Let's take a look.
A reading of the text shows that a very different and far more amazing phenomenon (supposedly) occured at Pentecost. Everyone present while the Galileans were preaching heard them in their own language. It's not simply the case that the preachers were speaking another language that they didn't know, it's that they appeared to be speaking multiple languages at once. About a dozen regions are mentioned, and likely that each one had its own language, or at least its own dialect, and the verses imply that each person, no matter what their language, heard the preachers speaking in their own native tongue. It's vastly different from your anecdotal stories of people speaking languages they don't know, it's more akin to the universal translator of Star Trek.
It is a feat that, if actually replicated in a church, would be staggeringly difficult for a skeptic to explain. A person speaking a language they supposedly don't know could have learned some of the language away from the eyes of their congregation, and willingness to believe on the part of the listeners may make them exaggerate to themselves the fluency of the speaker. But a person perceived as speaking multiple languages at once to native speakers of many different languages? That would be far harder to explain. But that's not what happens. We get glossolalia, which isn't very impressive at all, although it's freaky as hell, especially if you're fourteen, and we get a person speaking in another language they could have picked up somewhere, an explanation which does not require anything more fanciful than fudging the truth a little in the name of Jesus.
Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.
Wow, so i guess god really wanted you to get a Wii.... People can pray to have sick children healed, but god really came through on that video game console you don't actually require.
Y'know, if you hadn't given your $$$ to the church, you'd have TWICE as much money!
And in regards to the fasting/praying thing, most of the people on here were theists at one point. Getting a "feeling" is not god, man. God has never talked to anyone. You can't hear the voice of god on the radio, or see him on TV, you can't go up to him and shake his hand. Those things that happen to you are not god doing it, it's THINGS HAPPENING. Those feelings you get are not the holy spirit, they're YOUR OWN feelings.
Beautiful. Just beautiful.
Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine
MY GOOD FRIEND, GOD DID NOT WANT ME TO GET A WII, THATS WHY HE HAD MY PUT MY MONEY IN THE OFFERING, FOR YOUR INFORMATION, I JUST SENT ALL THAT MONEY THAT I GOT LAST NIGHT TO MY MOM. THE HOLY GHOST IS NOT A "FEELING" MY FRIEND. IM SURE MOST OF THE PEOPLE ON HERE WERE CHRISTIANS AT ONE POINT, BUT I POSE THIS QUESTION. WERE YOU CHRISTIANS, OR WERE YOU RELIGIOUSLY INDOCTRINATED PEOPLE FOLLOWING THE DOCTRINES AND CREEDS THAT CONSUMED AND TOOK OVER 300 YEARS AFTER CHRISTIANITY WAS EVEN ESTABLISHED?
I DO NOT FOLLOW THOSE THINGS. I LISTEN TO GOD FOR INTERPRETATION OF THE BIBLE, FOR WHAT HE WANTS ME TO DO. I LET THE HOLY GHOST LEAD ME, NOT "RELIGION". THIS IS WHY I "BELIEVE" WHAT I "BELIEVE". I HAVE AN AMAZING TESTIMONY OF THE GLORY OF GOD IN MY LIFE ON MY MYSPACE IF ANYBODY EVER WANTS TO READ IT.
TO CLARIFY A PREVIOUS POST THAT SOMEONE RESPONDED TO ABOUT THE TONGUES AND PRAISING ME FOR NOT CLAIMING GLOSSOLALIA FOR PENTECOST:
THAT WAS ALSO A SINGULAR SITUATION (WHICH SOMETHING LIKE THAT HAPPENED IN 1906 AZUSA STREET LOS ANGELES CALIFORNIA).
IF YOU ACTUALLY READ, PAUL STATES IN 1 CORINTHIANS 14 THAT IF A PERSON SPEAKS IN UNKNOWN TONGUES THEY EDIFY THEMSELVES. WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE EXCLUSIVE EVENT OF PENTECOST AND MOST POSSIBLY THE AZUSA STREET REVIVAL, TONGUES, UNLESS THERE BE BY 2 OR 3 WERE NOT MEANT FOR INTERPRETATION.
AND ANOTHER THING, IN TERMS OF GLOSSOLALIA, WHY CAN'T GOD INDUCE IT? (THE ANSWER "BECAUSE GOD DOESN'T EXIST" WILL NOT FLY FOR THIS QUESTION, ANSWER IT IN AN UNOPINIONATED WAY, "BECAUSE GOD DOESN'T EXIST" IS LINGUISTICALLY AN OPINIONATED STATEMENT)
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Stop using caps, it makes you look stupid.
Right. Because when a capitalist makes money it is evil marketing, when religion makes money it isnt. Both the same to me, marketing.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Yeah, the all caps is getting old. Seriously. I don't want to have to bring my pimp hand down on yo.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
What kind of pathetic, tiny, mundane and ridiculous little world do you have to live in before you can imagine that some god is concerned with you gettting a "WII" while there's millions of children starving to death?
Do you EVER take A SECOND to think any of this nonsense through? .
Sure.... that's the most parsimonious explanation....
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
you don't read do you? GOD moved me not to buy the stinkin thing! I SENT THAT MONEY TO MY MOM
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
to answer you question, scoffman, If you have a relationship with God and there is a possibility of something there that would compromise your relationship, God will ask you to remove it.
You don't think that God is feeding children, bringing people out of poverty, etc.? where are you looking? have you taken a look at what happens at any revivals around the world?
Ministers go to other countries, especially third world countries to help these people get on their feet. The go in preaching the Word of God. You have to realize that God comes first in EVERY situation, once a relationship is established between man and God, God will lead man down the path they need to go, in order to live a holy, righteous, successful life.
Im not saying that a hungry kid can't get fed without the Word of God going forth, but without that, its much harder.
Please try not to bias your sources.
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
JESUS JESUS RA RA RA !
JESUS JESUS SIS BOOM BA!
JESUS JESUS RA RA RA!
JESUS JESUS SIS BOOM BA!
GO TEAM CROSS!
You were saying something about bias Mr. Cheerleader?
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Hmmmm, it sounds to me that at those revival meetings in 3rd world countries, it's actually men and women feeding those children. Not god. And why does your god need to "tell" people to feed sick children before he'll help out too? Why is it "harder"? If god really wanted them fed, wouldn't he just feed them? If he needs humans to go in and get food in the normal regular way you'd help the poor, then why not just leave god out of the equation? At this point, it's not terribly useful.
i don't think you quite understand. There is a reason God gave access to His Spirit as of Pentecost. Human beings are the vehicles in which God's plan is accomplished.
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Why does an all-powerful being need vehicles?
Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.
You don't read do you? Being 'concerned" indicates he's concerned about whatever happens regarding the WII, including whether or not you buy it. Why the fuck would a 'god' care either way, when there's millions of children starving to death? What kind of priorities does this 'god' have where he worries over your minute issues when millions are dying?
Now, can you stop dodging and deal with this part:
What kind of pathetic, tiny, mundane and ridiculous little world do you have to live in before you can imagine that some god is concerned with you gettting a "WII" (whether you get it or not) while there's millions of children starving to death?
Do you EVER take A SECOND to think any of this nonsense through? .
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
Stop. First, why don't you tell me what 'parsimonious' means, and how it is properly used in the context I used it.
Seeing as it's obvious you don't have a fucking clue to what it means, it ought to be obvious enough even for you that you can't answer the question yet.
No. Many are starving.
Thanks for again proving what a tiny, immature little world you have to live in, to hold to your beliefs. If you dare open your eyes to the real world, it would all come crashing down.
Now, ask yourself: why did your god even bother to invent the need to eat, if he knew millions would starve to death?
Please look in the mirror while typing things like this.
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
What does God need with a starship?
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
Sounds like 'god' is the stone in stone soup...... and nothing more.
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
If god's goal was to feed everyone, I would imagine that he would make it rain hamburgers.
Hell, he did it with manna back in the day... :
:
Mmmmm....mana-burgers from the sky. Sacralicious.
Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine
I think Matt's right, there's not enough mana.
Hey, that's the same site that has the Dr Phil "I'm a drunk pimp" one!
http://drpdp.ytmnd.com/
:
:
That's what I looked like back when I was 16.
An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.
This is so pointless. I haven't see JesusLovesYou even try to defend many of the points brought up here.
He is the alpha and the omega. Or also known as "circular reasoning"
I'M GOING TO QUOTE MY BOOK! THAT'LL SHOW EM!
What he fails to understand is that he believes in a false god.
In the holy snarfwidget book in the "letters to the mamailians"
LTM book 2:1,892
"I saith to all who dwell on the gods of the past. Beith thou warned that I am the one true snarfwidget. I knowith of the Flying Spagetti Monster and those two who worship "Sapient" the god of mamalians. Thou shalt persish in this folly of unsnarfidness. I sayith onto thee that I am the one true author of thee, thou and thous and worship of any other deity who usith old language are at risk of loosing their chance at the eternal bingo game in the afterlife."
"Letters to the mamalians" Book 2 verse 1,892
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
each and every one of you disregard everything I say. You say because God is X, then why doesn't He do Y and Z?
Im going to give a barney style analogy here:
Timmy and Tommy are doing math homework. Timmy needs help. Timmy can't get help unless he allows Tommy to help him.
you keep on bringing up, well if God is omnipresent, omniscient, etc. etc. then why doesn't He just do this or that? Well He DOES. For those who ASK! well some of you are going to come back at me and possibly say "i have" or something related. That leaves only a few possibilities. A) you are using a lying tongue to try to spew your atheist propaganda B) you didn't really know who you were praying to, or the biggest one that people have a hard time with is C) expecting an ETERNAL God to work within the PROCESS OF TIME.(you can't stick a roast in the microwave for two minutes and expect it to taste as good as when you let it simmer in a crock pot all day) D) you threw in the towel.
You ask about God having a relationship with us if He is all knowing.
Well im going to say the same thing that i said discussing love with somebody because it fits here too. IT TAKES TWO TO TANGO. God may know every single hair on your head, but its not a relationship if you don't know Him and love Him as much as He does you.
This is where free will comes in. God is not going to FORCE anybody to know Him. A relationship with God is a Sonship, not slavery.
I really hope that addressed some issues. im sorry that i have things to do during the day, that i cannot come on here constantly and post.
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Holy projection, Batman!
Wait, we're the ones not addressing the issues?
Shaun
I'll fight for a person's right to speak so long as that person will, in return, fight to allow me to challenge their opinions and ridicule them as the content of their ideas merit.
I'm new here and would like to attempt to answer some of your questions. First, just for the sake of deeper understanding, I offer that I am no convert to atheism. Never been a God or Jesus in my life, even from day 1. Interestingly
enough, not by design, but my father seemed to have no particular interest in faith and my mom had been scared at a young age by a holy roller church. She wanted us to "believe" out of fear mostly but just couldn't deal with the
whole church thing it seemed to me.
Anyway, how do I explain your 3 testimonies? First, none of these sound very documented (i.e. place, name, recorded witnesses). How can any of us answer to anything like that? Could you answer if/why my neighbor shot his wife if all you had were undocumented reports about him to that point? What if I didn't even tell you who/where he was or when it happened? I think not - certainly with no certainty at all. So, to ask anyone here to "disprove" that those testimonies mean is really unfair. Obviously the first has to do with immediate assessment of brain damage immediately which is impossible, even more so for a possibly incompetent physician.
But, how do I answer the God/Jesus questions in general? Well, having not heard of them before around age 9, in school, I was initially rather embarrassed that my peers had this knowledge and I didn't know what they were talking about.
Soon, as I heard the details from them, my gut reaction was simply "what in the world?" Think about it, to that point, logical/scientific/observable world only except for Santa who had already come & gone. Here's this Jesus guy and his deity-dad - if anything it might have made sense if God sent him to earth, he were a very difficult person, and humans earned salvation by treating him kindly & warmly anyway. I can't imagine a creator that is less logical than myself.
So, I don't feel the same need that others do to "disprove" anything. The only evidence seems to come from the Bible which is not anything that I've ever found meaningful. On the other hand, I see and feel significant meaning & purpose living
my life in accordance with the principals of reason, observable facts, and logic. Truly, it is the reason why one avoids drug use, exercises, cares for family, etc.
Granted, it lacks promise of everlasting life but I see that as fantasy only. Death is a natural part of life. The trick is to get as much out of that life, contribute to the planet
and the species while you are alive and, with luck, you'll live long enough to grow tired of life and be ready to sign off.
For me, however, that includes letting people live as they see fit. So I don't mean to sound
demeaning to your beliefs. This just explains the origin of my belief system. I respect your
right to believe otherwise so long as it affects your personal life only and not mine. Too many
Christians lately seem to be getting active in politics with the goal of making rules for non-Christians
as well. That I very much oppose.
So, uh, how about that radiocarbon dating? Do you still believe that it's only useful up to 5,000 years, or will you admit you made an error and that the upper limit is 50,000 years?
Or when you said Ernst Haeckel had been tried and convicted by his university for fraud, and it turned out that such a trial never happened?
You don't have to admit evolution or become an atheist or anything. Just do one simple thing for me:
Admit.
You.
Were.
Wrong.
It's simple!
Usually we say that because Y and Z are logical consequences of X.
1) Why does he only answer the prayers of those who ask? Why do we need to tell a God who knows everything what we want and that we love him and all that? Does God need clarification? Does he need even better proof than can be provided by being totally omniscient? Is God somehow unsure if we really really mean it or if we only really mean it (with one "really")?
2) Why does he frequently NOT answer the prayers of those who ask? You say later he works eternally, and is outside the process of time. What about people who pray for their relatives to be saved, but then those relatives die without converting and go to Hell? That seems pretty eternal, even more so than asking for Little Timmy's cancer to go away. When Timmy's cancer doesn't go away and he dies, Christians can weasel out and say that Timmy's cancer is gone up in Heaven, even if his parents prayed and prayed that he wouldn't die from cancer. What about things with eternal consequences that God, in his eternal assholeness, refuses to fix after death, such as being unsaved? If you pray for me to get saved, and I die still an atheist, where does that put God? Will he let me convert after death? Doubtful; if word got out that death wasn't your last chance for salvation I daresay most Christians would shit themselves. It'd cut into the fire and brimstone industry, that's for sure. Does he just let me simmer in Hell and let your prayer go unanswered? If you pray as hard as you can for an atheist to get saved and yet your prayer goes unanswered, when you tell your fellow Christians about it, will they tell you that you're lying for atheists, or that you didn't know who you were praying to, or that you threw in the towel, or that you were expecting God to answer your prayer within my lifetime?
What if God refuses to answer your prayer and just lies to you up in Heaven and says he did? Who's gonna stop him?
We already did say that, you big moron.
Yeah, that's it, genius. Every single atheist who says they used to pray as a Christian and got nothing in return is just lying lying lying. In the future, just save yourself from all that typing and just reply LA LA LA I'M NOT LISTENING LA LA LA. It has exactly the same effect, only it's not totally fucking insulting. I mean, calling me a liar about the events of almost a decade of my life is not exactly getting you on my good side.
Riiiiiight. How exactly would someone mess this up? Does Satan somehow secretly intercept the prayers of devout Christians who will later deconvert? Listen to yourself. This is totally ridiculous. When we were Christians, we prayed to God and Christ. We believed in our hearts that God and Christ existed and that they were listening and that our prayers were going to them. Who are you to come along and totally rewrite years -- in some cases decades -- of our personal lives just to fit your twisted mental picture of atheists? Douchebag.
Are you saying that God can't work within the process of time, or that he just won't? Either he's not omnipotent or just a dick.
Seriously, you are aware that the things asked for in most prayers tend to be things confined to our space-time continuum, right? A new job, a raise, food for the kids, recovery from some disease, inner peace, lifting of depression, safe travel, that a loved one will turn to Christ and not go to hell. Are these things somehow beneath an eternal God? The things people pray for are confined to the process of time. A single anecdote of an answered prayer totally disproves your conjecture that God doesn't work within the process of time. Your first anecdote in this very thread discusses a boy who was saved from death. I don't believe it happened, but you apparently believe that it did, and so you're the one who has to reconcile it with your own beliefs. Was saving that anonymous boy from death not within the process of time? What about the guy who prayed to find a preacher? Is that something that can be fulfilled outside the process of time? What about praying for someone else to become saved? That one's got a pretty non-eternal time limit, as I understand; once they die, they can't get saved ever. Does God just say "I'll get to it later -- an eternity later!"?
Unless, of course, you worship an omnipotent microwave.
Yeah, we have to make sure that the omniscient, all-knowing God of knowledge really knows how much we mean it. Otherwise the super unlimited God of all creation who knows the thoughts of every person just might get confused about what you really want and how much you really love him. Do you even think these things through? Seriously, JLY, what could God possibly learn from our not throwing in the towel that he couldn't already know? He doesn't need to test us to know these things; he knew Job would never curse him, even before Satan got around to laying all sorts of tragedy on him. An omniscient God needs proof from no one. He needs to test no one. There is nothing we do or think or plan or want or pray for that he couldn't have known since the day we were born.
The big question, which you never answered, was what does God need a relationship with human beings for. It's like trying to have a relationship with your Sims, except that you already know the outcome of every event of their lives and the details every thought that fires across their tiny finite non-eternal synapses.
It's amazing that so many of the things that Christians say God wants, or wants to respect, are things a superbeing would never have to deal with or care about in the first place. Learning through adversity? Why would an all-knowing transcendent being care about that? What would he even know about it? He knows everything instantly. (Would an all-knowing people know what it's like to not be omniscient? Methinks the whole concept is internally contradictory.) Free will? Please. He's omniscient. He already knows what he's going to do. He's preordained to follow what he knows he will do. Can God refuse to do something he knows he'll do in the future? (I learned that little number from The God Delusion, which is surprising, since I thought I knew all the contradiction anti-omni arguments.) What would God know about free will, or conversely, why would he bother making the will of his creation limited? Relationships? Humans long for relationships because we're social creatures. People build relationships to exchange food, or assistance with problems, or emotional support, or social concerns, or sympathy and empathy, or cultural knowledge, or occasionally body fluids. What experience does God have with any of these things? Does God need a shoulder to cry on? Does he need help building a house? Does he need to ask one of the tribal elders how to hunt? Does God need to get laid, JYL? Is that it?
God is omniscient, and by most accounts, omnibenevolent. All-knowing and all-loving. He knows absolutely everything about us and loves us absolutely and unconditionally. You're basically saying that in order to have a relationship with God, we ourselves would have to be omniscient and omnibenevolent. Way to go, chief. According to you, nobody can have a relationship with God.
If God really does want a relationship with everyone, why doesn't he have what he wants? You say he doesn't want to force anyone to know him. Who the hell is gonna stop him? God Squared? Please explain to me this: How can an all-knowing all-powerful God not get what he wants even within the moral confines you've stated for him? Are you saying that God is totally absolutely incapable of converting everyone and having a relationship with everyone without forcing them?
About that force thing... you are aware that your religion threatens those who don't worship and love God to eternal torment? And what's the end result of a relationship with God? You get to hang out in his presence where you end up worshipping him forever! But it's not slavery, no sir!
The free will thing is just laughable. God already knows what you're going to do and when. If you believe that God is the omnipotent and omniscient creator of everything, then you must acknowledge that he can analyze every aspect of your personality, that he created the environment that affected your personality as it developed, that he set up every limitation of human existence, that he is responsible for every electrochemical signal bouncing around in your head, that he is responsible for the creation of brains and thoughts and consciousness and souls and "free will" or whatever.
When Jesus told Peter he would deny him thrice before the cock crew, do you think Peter could possibly ever have done anything else? Peter might have thought he had a choice. But God (and Jesus, who was picking up God's knowledge via Radio Free Holy Spirit) knew every aspect of Peter's personality, every event in Peter's life that influenced his future cowardly behavior, knew every little detail of the situation that would make Peter want to cover his ass. How could Peter have done anything else? And if Peter couldn't have done anything else, how could anyone else do anything other than what God knew they would do; what he had known they would do since the moment of creation? If you believe in free will along with God, do you believe that humans are capable of foiling God's plans, that humans are more powerful than God, because we can resist his will and confuse his preordained omniscience? Are you even reading this?
You've addressed some issues, yes. Just, you know, not the ones we're bringing up. Oh, and I like the little veiled insinuation that we have no lives. It makes you seem less like a colossal prick.
Wait, no. It does the exact opposite of making you seem less like a colossal prick. You colossal prick. I realize you're going to start complaining about being called names, totally oblivious to the fact that you suggested I was a propaganda-spewing liar.
Oh, about that radiocarbon thing? You gonna get back to us about that? Or the Haeckel trial? Are you going to be a big man and admit you messed up? Should I hold my breath?
Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.
Man, I hope this is another one of your poor attempts at sarcasm:
Let me tell you why this analogy is flawed. Timmy and Tommy are equals. They're both kids, roughly the same age, definetly both humans. They're both elementary school students. I'm going to take a wild guess here and say that one of them is not all-knowing and all-seeing. If he was, I don't think he'd be wasting his time on math homework.
Here's something else: Tommy is sitting there right beside him. Timmy has never had any reason to doubt Tommy's existence. He has concrete evidence that he is real; the most immediate being that the fucker is sitting right beside him.
Timmy and Tommy's relationship is nothing like that of a believer and his/hers perceived creator. Want to know why? The concept of divine intervention is nothing like math tutoring. You're talking about a face to face relationship between two flesh and blood human beings. It doesn't compare to what you're proposing; on effect made on reality by 'prayer'.
Oh, and do not tell me I didn't read your post. I'm getting really sick of hearing that outright lie from you.
Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine
Ok, wow. first of all, how are Y and Z logical consequences of X. You are putting PHYSICAL limitations on an unlimited God. Just because God is X does not mean Y and Z are an obligation. God answers the prayers of them who ASK because it is THOSE people that desire God. God is not going to help someone who does not desire His help. Give me an example of an unanswered prayer that remained unanswered until the death. If so, there is a perfectly logical explanation depending on the situation. If this was you, have you thought about the process of time? God answers ALL prayers, but remember God exists in eternity, the human process of time does not fit into that eternity. A prayer may be answered in 5 minutes, or even 10-20 years due to the PROCESS OF TIME, but in God's perspective, He has answered it when He heard the plee. Explain exactly why you don't think God desires a relationship with man. It has nothing to do with his omnipotance, or anything of that matter. Its just like a husband wanting to spend time with his wife. Thats why Paul refers to the church, or the body of Christ, as the Bride of Christ.
and of course, the thing about not knowing whom you are praying to. You just gave a PRIME example of how many Christians DO NOT know whom they are praying to. You took (like the majority of "christianity" does) and separated Spirit from flesh. Here is how you did this:
Biblically there is no separation of body and Spirit. Like most of christianity you know a trinity, a false representation of God. the trinity is another one of those things such as statues and holidays <b>THAT DIDN'T COME AROUND UNTIL MANY MANY YEARS AFTER CHRISTIANITY WAS ESTABLISHED</b> (honestly, correct me if im wrong, but, seeing this "war on christmas" i don't think very many, if any of you know history of christian doctrine. all arguments are based upon the christianity that was born out of the eccumenical catholic age, i don't think ANY of you have even touched ORIGINAL christianity, which had NO christmas, easter, worship of mary, worship of saints, statues, enormous buildings that people hold church in, etc. In "The God that wasn't there, Brian Flemming has this one part where the screen scrolls down a list of "common elements" and on top of that list was "savior being born on december 25th" or something close to that. I DO NOT KNOW OF ONE SINGLE CHRISTIAN THAT THINKS JESUS WAS BORN ON THAT DAY.) anyway, back on topic, most people pray to a trinity, which in fact BIBLICALLY does not exist. This is why Paul says that JESUS CHRIST is the image of the invisible God, that JESUS CHRIST is the FULLNESS of the Godhead. This is why Isaiah described in his prophesy of Jesus. "a son is born, a child is given, and his name will be comforter, counsellor, THE ALMIGHTY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER, the prince of peace." So no, to answer your question I DO NOT believe you were praying to Jesus Christ, but the false trinitarian god.(and not im not Jehovas Witness, they do not believe in the deity of Christ).
My friend, you do not understand the concept of having a relationship with God. You do not understand the concept of what is going to happen in the end of days. not one bit.
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
So....God is not effected by physical limitations, but he is at the mercy of the passage of time. You're honestly saying you don't see a problem with this contradiction?
Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine
its not a contradiction, i don't think you understand eternity vs. the PROCESS of time.
To God, a day is a thousand years, and a thousand years is a day.
To man, a thousand years is a thousand years, a day is a day.
God is not limited at all, Man limits God in their perception, because man is subjec to time, while God is not.
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Why not just eradicate the need to eat entirely? Or keep the concept, for those who enjoy to eat, but make it so that no one who can't get food starves?
Why would a god create the need to eat in the first place? It's destructive - it requires death. To consume food requires that we consume something alive, either plant or animal.
It creates hardships... some will always starve, some will suffer from obesity.
Why not eliminate the biological necessity of eating?
If you were a god, and you knew that some of your creation would starve, painfully, and you were able to simply remove the requirement of eating altogether, what would you choose?
As usual, the theist retains his theism through his thorough lack of imagination.
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
Ok, I see what your saying here. What you stating is that "time" (as perceived by humans) is in a diffrent state than "eternity" (gods unending existance.) That being said, "time" does not affect god, because his conciousness exists simultaneously
everywhere. God, at the same time, is able to see us when we're five years old, when we're 55 years old and when we are lying on our deathbed.
So, why doesn't god provide us with what we ask for through prayer before we ask for it? If the future is meanlingless to god, then so must be the past. In fact; why do we even need to ask in the first place? Why can't god keep us free from what he knows will cause us pain and misery so we don't even have to ask in the first place?
Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine
So, uh, what non-physical limitations keep God from running the universe exactly how he likes? Is your beloved "free will" physical? You admit God is unlimited and without limitations. So why doesn't he get what he wants?
I will ask this again.
What is preventing God from getting exactly what he wants?
Really? Police officers, doctors, and firefighters routinely help people who don't want it. They help people who hate them and want to hurt them. Lots of people help others, even when the others don't want it. Parents will help care for their children, even when their children throw a tantrum and whine and complain, not caring that their parents are acting in their best interest when they say they can't go do something dangerous. Human beings, obviously, are better at loving than God is. God requires that you love him and have a relationship with him first. Imagine you're trapped in a burning house. You can't get out. A firefighter climbs the ladder to your window and you cry out for help. The firefighter says they won't help you until you two have a personal relationship, and climbs past your window to go help their best friends and family, while you burn and burn because the firefighter was too much like God to be a decent human being.
Unanswered until death? How about people who pray for a loved one to not die of an illness and they do anyway? How, exactly, will God end up fulfilling that one? The very request of the prayer itself is limited to the process of time, because illness and death occur in the process of time.
If you pray for your grandmother to not die of cancer, and she dies of cancer, when does God get around to saving her life? Does he rewrite history so she doesn't die of cancer? Even if she spends eternity in heaven, the fact remains that she got to heaven because of the cancer.
If you pray for me to get saved, and I die still an atheist, when does God get around to saving me? Does he let me take a Mulligan in hell?
You totally fail to realize that most things people pray for are directly related with the process of time, and usually involve some sort of time limit which would render any sort of eternity useless. God can't wait for eternity to answer a prayer that becomes moot in a week. It must be a really great dodge for you, though; if a prayer goes unanswered, you can just say it wasn't the sort of prayer God answers!
So if a Christian prays for everyone currently in Hell to get a second chance, when does that happen? Does my prayer go unanswered or not? Will my prayer ever be answered, even over the course of eternity? Hell is eternal, or so I'm told.
I did, several times in my last post and during the thread. Do you need me to summarize my argument? Would it matter? You're not going to read it anyway. It's just dodge dodge dodge with you. Explain to me, again: what possible reason would an unlimited God want to have a relationship with finite limited beings who can not relate to him on any sort of meaningful level and are totally unable to know and love him in the same way he knows and loves them. There is absolutely no reason for believing this, except for the hubris of humans who don't want to feel small. They think "I'm not worthless! I'm the most worthwhile thing in the universe! The superbeing who created the universe loves me more than any human being on Earth loves me! The universe was created just for people like me! And, finally, thank you, God, for making me so humble."
I'm reminded of Normal Bob Smith, who got an email saying that God loved everyone, and remarked that this was like when first graders hand out valentine cards; first graders don't actually love all the people they give the cards to, they just give them out to everyone because their parents made them. That's what it's like when people say God loves me. I've never met him or talked to him or shared any sort of personal experience with him, like I have with my friends and family, but I'm supposed to believe that this superbeing loves me more than any human ever could. I grew out of valentine cards in middle school. I can see most Christians haven't.
Why does God need a wife, you big moron? Does he need emotional support? Does he need social contact? Does he need someone to swap gametes with? I asked these very questions in my last post, and you just ignored them. Think about the reasons humans get married or otherwise form pair-bonds. Then ask yourself "Does God really need those things too, or am I just projecting?"
Okay, so you deny the Trinity. I agree it's a pretty stupid concept. You're one step closer to just denying the whole mess than most modern Christians, although, paradoxically, you're still a lot dumber than most of them. That said, I like how you totally ignored the majority of my post in order to ramble on and on about which Christians have the correct concept for their imaginary friend. And you've just raised another more important question, which is why God would allow his followers to be deceived by those dreadful Trinitarians to begin with. Does he just not care? How many people died believing in a Trinity? Did God not want a relationship with them? Why didn't he just come to them in a dream and say they got it wrong? The dream thing happened tons of times in the Old Testament. I guess they just weren't worth the effort. Not like you are. You're just so damn special.
Whatever happened to the parable of the shepherd who will leave ninety-nine sheep to look for the hundredth? I get the impression that this shepherd just looks around a bit, calls the sheep's name once or twice, and then wanders off, blaming the sheep. Why doesn't God expend every effort (i.e., the full force of omnipotence) into bringing sheep into his fold? How can God fail to win over believers?
And, lastly, did God, in his infinite wisdom, ever think that maybe these people praying really did mean it, they just got some of the details confused? Why not look down at them, like an all-loving father would, acknowledge and forgive their mistaken choice of God-concept, and answer their prayers anyway? Of course he wouldn't. Because we all know God is solely a projection of the theist, and godforbid a theist would have to get along with someone who believed something different.
Considering that the very idea of a limited human having any sort of meaningful personal relationship with a transcendent eternal superbeing who is not a person is total fucking nonsense to begin with, I don't consider "not understanding it" a significant problem. There's nothing to understand. It's gibberish of the highest caliber.
So explain it to me then. Surely you'll answer that, won't you?
You won't respond when we tell you that you don't know crap about carbon dating.
You won't respond when we tell you that Haeckel was never tried for fraud.
You won't respond when we ask why God only helps people who ask for his help.
You won't respond when we ask about what God needs personal relationships for.
You won't respond when we tell you that you're insulting us and our intelligence.
You won't respond when we bring up the contradiction between omniscience and free will.
You won't respond when we ask about why we have to pray just right before God answers our prayers.
But I think you will respond when we ask you to hold forth about your imaginary best friend and his plans for the end of time. I bet we won't be able to shut you up about it. Call it a hunch.
Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.
I am disturbed at the amount of times that jesus and god are being jumbled into the same diety in this thread. It started with jesuslovesyou saying that it's not about god, it's about Jesus.
Jesus isn't god. He was the mortal son of god. I'm sorry, but it's like that.
Every step I took in faith betrayed me
-Sarah McLachlan
a+b>im not sure, i have to look into it, please allow me that opportunity, there is a valid explanation for everything
c>you totally misunderstand me TOTALLY. God answers prayers. If a prayer for a non-believer is prayed God will still answer it, although the non-believer will deny that God did anything
d>What does God need personal relationships for? because thats why he created us. Do you have a significant other? Why do you like being aroung that person if you do.
e>i apologize if i have insulted anybody, that is not my goal here. My goal here is to destroy interfaithism and let truth reign.
f> how does having all knowledge have ANYTHING to do with allowing us to live as we please?
g>why do we have to pray? Yes God knows everything, BUT it has to do with your willingness to accept and receive Him. Lets put it this way.
Prayer is a way to express your love and passion for God in the only way you can in your humanity. The Bible says God dwells in the praises of His people. God is just saying, "all you gotta do is lift your voice, lift your hands, shout unto me" Its showing devotion to God. If a person DOES NOT have that devotion, that drive to walk with God, then God is not going to force Himself on them.
Maybe i stated something wrong earlier. In your post, when describing people who help people who don't ask, you gave examples of "american heros". Just because a person doesn't ASK doesn't mean that they don't WANT. Im sure if a person is in a burning building and cannot escape, they are in too much shock to ASK, but they would still WANT help.
Lets go barney style again:
Jim: Hey Johnny, I see you need help practicing pitching, would you like some help?
Johnny: NO!
Jim: Ok, I understand, ill let you practice by yourself.
My friend, there is this thing called RESPECT. God is not going to MAKE you do anything. No means No. If somebody doesn't want God, He won't force Himself on the person.
btw. When you think of the words omniscient, omnipresent, omnibenevolent, etc. You are automattically forming those words into your perception and saying "oh these mean this, so this automattically means that God MUST this, MUST that." Right there you are limiting an unlimited God in your HUMAN perception.
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
I find it odd that you would change someone’s name in a quote to "reallystupidatheist" then talk about how insults are not your goal and then about respect.
Now I and others here have pointed out ignorance in the passed about theists, but I know I use the word ignorance over stupid for a reason. Stupid is lack of intelligence, ignorance is lack of knowledge or education, I use it as it pertains to certain subject. The difference between the two words is that ignorance is temporary and something I use to describe the knowledge I have about some subjects.
You are saying this guy has a low IQ not lacking information on the subject, although he does seem to be lacking the knowledge of your responses.
BTW in order to talk about something and both people have the same idea when they use a word (something useful for subjects of arguments) they should be defined. Also those words are used to describe the infinite of certain ideas. Basically those aren't limiting, but describing the lack of limits.
He wont force himself on us but will burn us for eternity for not kissing his ass. NO THANKS. I dont worship slavemasters who use threats of tourture to get me to kiss their ass.
"God" is perfect but wants or needs us? Perfect things dont want or need that is why they are called perfect.
You are merely projecting human behaviors and human emotions onto a concept. It is called anthropromorphism. That is all you are doing.
"God" only exists as a projection of humans wanting a super hero to protect them. You worship Superman. It is a projection of our natural disire to continue. It is a made up concept and nothing but fiction born out of lack of knowlege and ignorance of human history.
Your god is no different than any concept before or after.
You wont outgrow that by continuing to perpetuate myth. We cannot help you here if you dont want help.
You are doing nothing but preaching and cheerleading for your favorite Superman concept.
You might as well be an expert in the Klingon language. Like I said, preach all you want and shout from the rooftops till you turn blue in the face, fiction is fiction and we cant help you face that unless you want help facing that.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
LMAO
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"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
again, you are basing your OPINION, upon the Christianity that was destroyed and manipulated by the Roman Empire back in the 4th century. CHRISTIANITY WAS AROUND FOR A FEW HUNDRED YEARS BEFORE IT WAS INFLUENCED BY PAGAN DOCTRINE!
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Well, from what i understand, pretty much everything that the Bible says about jesus was influenced by pagan "doctrine." Perhaps the actions of the councils in the 4th century added to this and made it official, but Paul did enough influencing himself.
If there ever was a jesus, i doubt the picture we have of him is accurate historically. And if any of the records are accurate, which one? Please show me the criteria you use to separate the pagan from the Christian?
I think you should listen to some of the shows where Rook talks about these topics, you might learn a few things.
Shaun
I'll fight for a person's right to speak so long as that person will, in return, fight to allow me to challenge their opinions and ridicule them as the content of their ideas merit.
1. What is the purpose of Hell in God's will?
2. If God wants us to choose him out of our free will and love, then why would the alternative to this choice be eternal damnation?
3. Logistical Question:
According to you, God answers all prayers.
If God answers prayers outside of time ( you said some prayers are answered in 10 years or 1000 years, etc.), does he require that we choose Him in time? (Depending on when we die, we have between 0 years of age and, say 100 years of age to make that choice); this is to say, if you pray for my soul tonight, but I die the next morning, since in time I died before your prayer was answered, am I eternally damned, or will your prayer be answered?
I'd like to point out that atheists don't talk to their mattresses or sing to the sky. I'd like to hear a theist explain THAT. Seriously.
Because it looks totally loony bin to me.
Every step I took in faith betrayed me
-Sarah McLachlan
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.