How does an athiest explain something such as this:
Offline TESTIMONY #1
A young boy was in a bedroom with his sister and her friend. The girls found their father's gun and started playing with it. The gun went off and went right through the young boys head. The boys grandmother called the pastor. Rev. David Shatwell (although the man doesn't matter). Bro. Shatwell prayed about this, went to the hospital and saw this boy. The doctors were saying that certain parts of the brain that were used for certain motor functions were damaged and the boy would not be able to do certain things anymore. Bro. Shatwell went in that hospital room and did just what he was moved through prayer to do. He pointed his finger at the boy and exclaimed. "I COMMAND YOU IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST TO LIVE, LIVE I SAY LIVE, LIVE AND DO NOT DIE! IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST". The mother is on the other side of the bed holding her son's hand. She starts screaming saying "HE SQUEEZED MY HAND!". the boy had been unconscious. Before this point the doctors were not going to operate, but they decided to, still claiming that the boy would have disabilities. That young boy very shortly afterwards was completely recovered, 100% healthy no disabilities.
TESTIMONY #2
A man felt moved though prayer and fasting that he was to take a bus all the way to California, he had been living in Mississippi. He went to the bus station and asked for a ticket. The amount of money the lady told him, he did not have, and the bus was going to leave soon. So he sat down and he prayed. 5 minutes before the bus left, a stranger walked into the station and called on his name (stanger meaning these men have never met before), handed him an envelope with his name on it, and it just happened to have the exact amount of money that he needed in it. So he gets on the bus, and a good while later they cross the state line to california. They are in the middle of the desert, and the man feels he needs to get off the bus right there in the middle of nowhere. So he does, and he is standing in the middle of nowhere on the highway. Shortly afterwards a vehicle drives up, a man opens the passenger side door, and asks "are you the man im lookin for?" and the driver explains how he had been praying about a preacher, and God told him to start driving down the highway and he will find the man to preach on sunday.
TESTIMONY #3
A man, through prayer and fasting felt that he was supposed to go stand out on I-10 and start preaching. He did so. He stood on the side of the road and preached into the darkess. 2 years later a man comes into his church. This man testifies that 2 years ago he was a homeless bum living on the highway, then one night he heard a man preach from the Bible on the highway and it changed his life forever.
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
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Are you a bad rap song artist?
Trinity T in the place to be
Preachin bout hell, so we can see
Elevatin higher, than a bird
Because he's armed and ready, with the word
Don't quit your day job.
Every step I took in faith betrayed me
-Sarah McLachlan
What's worse is that his formatting was so poor that he ens up quoting me incorrectly. It's hard to tell what he's saying and what he's replying to....
Perhaps he'll try again.
Shaun
I'll fight for a person's right to speak so long as that person will, in return, fight to allow me to challenge their opinions and ridicule them as the content of their ideas merit.
sorry, my computer was acting up.
Lets start with the most important thing here. There is NO TRINITY. The trinity is not in the Bible anywhere. Neither was it around for 200 years AFTER the apostles died. The father of the trinity is a man named Tertullian. The Bible teaches that Jesus Christ is the FULLNESS of the Godhead bodily. 90% of christians are deceived by this doctrine today.
The trinity took root from egyptian elements of Rah, Amon, Ptah and Osiris, Isis, Horus. Hinduism-Brahma, Shiva, Vishnu. So on and so forth. The Bible does not teach such a doctrine.
What the Bible does teach is something reffered to as Modalistic Monarchianism.
Other such doctrines that derived from paganism that ARE NOT truely christian are infant baptism, christmas, easter, worship of mary and the saints, statues of Jesus, mary and the saints. These doctrines were all put into effect in the eccumenical age of catholicism.
Christianity was originally JEWISH. Paul was SANHEDRIN. Which this is very significant because why would a man that was a part of the same council that crucified Christ PREACH Christ?
The assumption about Paul that Mr. Flemming states in his movie is so BOGUS. Ok, Paul didn't mention the Gospel people in his epistles, but that doesn't mean they didn't exist. Paul wrote those letters to the churches that he had PREVIOUSLY visited. Why re-tell what he had already told? He wrote to the churches ABOUT THEIR WALK WITH GOD.
So, i state again. Why would a man that was part of the sanhedrin, all of a sudden go on missionary trips preaching for, what he previously killed people preaching for.
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Why did Paul do what he did? Maybe he didn't. It begs the question that the events about Jesus actually happened to ask why they happened the way that hey did.
But even if the events happened, there are many reasons why someone would change their tune. Imagine that you were on a jury that convisted a man that you later found not only to have not been worthy of punishment, but whom you higly revered.
But I'll allow those who know more about Paul than I to discuss that.
Concerning the Trinity; says you. Why are you correct? I mean, after all, the Catholic Church has the line of Popes all the way back to Peter, right? How could you challenge what they know, given that line? (I'm being sarcastic). The point is while you may be right that the Trinity is not supported in the Bible, the fact is that many things that the Bible says are not supported by actual evidence. It seems ironic that you are a stickler for evidence and then imply a circularity of logic on the source you use.
Shaun
I'll fight for a person's right to speak so long as that person will, in return, fight to allow me to challenge their opinions and ridicule them as the content of their ideas merit.
Yes, i realize that the catholic church does this, but that is extremely unbiblical on their part. Peter doesn't raise himself any higher than any of the other disciples. There is no evidence to support the Bible? have you ever been to Jerusalem? i myself will go there some day, but talking to plentious people that have been there, including my pastor, and my jewish friend Trelin there is plentious evidence of the Bible there. For one thing, why do you think territories over there are named the way they are? BECAUSE THEY WERE SETTLED BY THOSE PEOPLE.
are you familiar with how the Bible in 2 places accounts for the 70AD destruction of Jerusalem?
in the OT, Daniel 9:26, Daniel mentions that AFTER the Messiah is cut off, (Jesus was a messianic figure that was "cut off"
the city and the sanctuary will be destroyed.
And as well in Matthew 24, Jesus mentions that the temple will be destroyed after He has died.
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Not much of a feat since the Bible was actually written after that happened!
This is a logical fallacy. I didn't say that everything that the Bible says is false. This is not an all-or-nothing question. Consider the following imaginary passage from a future book of mine;
I was born in the year of 1977. There were flying elephants in those days, disco music, and strange fashions. I grew up poor, milking cows for the King of England for a living in New york City. I was told as a child that as I got older great calamities would befall our land, as foreign threats would attack us and we would be forever changed.
Does the fact that there are true statements, references to real places and real people (whether they were alive at the proposed time or not), have any bearing at all about the nature of the rest of the claims? Does the fact that New York is a real place, miling cows is a way to earn money, etc have anything to do with whether elephants flew or whether the prophesy, vague as it is, could possbly have been a prediction of, say, September 11th?
You missed my point. My point is that there are many things (not all) that are not supported.
When was Matthew written? Before or after the temple was destroyed? How do you know Daniel refers to Jesus? Does Danial say this, or is this more question-begging?
I don't know what to make of Daniel', but I see no reason to see it as more than the poetic ramblings of a man who, for some reason, Jews liked to read 2000 years ago.
Shaun
I'll fight for a person's right to speak so long as that person will, in return, fight to allow me to challenge their opinions and ridicule them as the content of their ideas merit.
Daniel was wrong about the City being destroyed anyway.
The problem with this debate, and any other theism vs. atheism discussion, is that the points of view presented on both sides are non sequitur—they’re not in conversation with each other; both schools of thought apply separate, unrelated systems in order to explain their respective universes. Resultantly, therefore, we are left with an entirely unsatisfactory discourse. In saying this, I am in no way condemning or supporting either viewpoint. I only mean to point out that we are dealing with two different mythologies. What I’m getting at, of course, depends on our definition of mythology, but I think we can generally agree that a mythology is a set of rules, conceptions, stories, and dogmas that define and explain the world we encounter. The religious worldview and the modern, scientific worldview apply different sets of rules by which the world is organized. The two systems have nothing to do with each other. Religion defines the world in terms of the Devine, and modernity defines it with scientific theories and laws. To adherents of either mythology, the other side appears ridiculous, but this is mainly because neither side can accommodate the other’s fundamental premises—they are just different ways at looking at the world. In this case, three stories are presented where people’s lives were improved in given circumstances. The religious worldview explains this by invoking the Devine, and the scientific worldview offers the laws of statistical chance. Both explanations arrive at the same result; only the mode of arrival differs. The events are merely interpreted differently, with differing levels of significance. Neither can disprove the other because the two explanations are wholly disconnected.
The danger lies in trying to assert one worldview to the point that no other can be valid. Both theism and atheism are guilty of this, though history has shown that when theism has its way, people tend to be killed…In any case, certainly we live in liberal enough time to allow for plurality of ideas. Einstein asserted that there is no privileged position in the universe. Likewise we should be careful not to privilege our own worldviews. If we are truly liberal (not in a political sense, in case you don’t know what the word really means) then we have a responsibility to allow for all opinions and ideas, even, or especially those that do not coincide with our own, so long as those ideas do not infringe on the right of others to have their own worldviews.
The Bible was COMPILED later, first known in 170AD. BUT the WRITINGS that the Bible consist of are much older.
It is a COMPILATION OF COLLECTED WRITINGS. Which more than enough accounts for the writings that are mentioned in the Bible that cannot be found.
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
I will not say that your observations are not without merit. This is, essentially, the position of the late Steven J. Gould; that of NOMA (Nonoverlapping Magisteria). It is a point of view that is true iff the scientific/atheistic worldview can actually be defined as a mythology.
Strictly speaking, atheism is not because atheism is a mere negatie position. So I'll address the comment as if it were addressed to a community of people following scientific methologies (who also might just happen to be atheists).
If what you are saying is true, then would t not be impossible to have a scientific theist?
The interesting thing is that this is not true at all for most things. That is, when manytheists talk about God, heaven, hell, or other religious ideas, they apply this different mythology. However, in the things they do in their daily lives, they use the exact same methodology that those who use the scientific mythology.
The point here is that the vast majority of people--both theist and atheist--use the methodology of the scientific worldview except when they talk about religious claims. That is, they put on hold this neutral (secular) standard for evidence, belief, etc when they deal with these things. So yes, theists use different rules, conception, etc than scientists, but they do so without epistemological justification.
There are indeed different ways of looking at the world. However, they are not merely two different valid ways of looking at the world. I will agree with what I perceive to be part of the spirit of your point; that there is something important about stories, metaphor, poetry, emotion, passion, creativity, and a host of other tools in our shed that we use to stretch, bend, and create new the stuff of he world. There is nothing wrong with using these strengths of ours to express ideas, make art, or simply entertain. And by using this different mythology, there is much to learn. The problem is when people use those tools--the divine--to try and describe reality.
No, they arrive at different results. One result is that something supernatural exists and the other says that they don't see it and there is no justifiable reason to accept that it does.
No, the events either happened or they didn't. One side believes they did while the other, being skeptical, says that it seems unlikely, and we won't believe until we see evidence. Thus, the explanations are disconnected because one simply believes it and the other actually tries to evaluate it.
The worldview of atheism, again, is simply the lack of theism. the worldview of skepticism and scientific proof does not exclude anything except that whch is unfalsifiable. The theistic worldview has not been shown to be valid. Science has been shown to be at very least pragmatic and at most true.
We should be careful not to privilege our own conclusions. The reason I make the distinction is that the worldview of science is, by definition, open to everything that can be demonstrated. If you are willing to accept anything, then you could accept everything. An open mind may be good, but one so open that one's brains fall out is not, IMHO, preferable.
If you must tolerate all positions, that includes the ones that won't tolerate other opinions.
Thanks for the advice that the RRS already stands for.
Being skeptial and demanding evidence for claims is not being clsed off to others' positions. We are open to opinions of all kinds, but we will ask for evidence, support, or at least a valid argument from you to back up your ideas.
Shaun
I'll fight for a person's right to speak so long as that person will, in return, fight to allow me to challenge their opinions and ridicule them as the content of their ideas merit.
Your thoughtful response was much appreciated, Shaun. I think, however, that our discussion will be limited to one of semantics and such matters as whether a “negate position” is not itself a worldview; the impossibility of a “scientific theist”; or if the method of arrival at an interpretation in fact changes the results being observed (something our quantum theorist friends should have been chiming in about). Ultimately, my philosophical stand point is entirely that—philosophical. You represent a point of view much more grounded in the experience of our daily lives and are absolutely correct in your observations about the mythological shifts that theists in particular seem to experience. I still remain unconvinced that there exists much space for meaningful dialog between the two schools. They possess separate realities; the theist actually sees the world differently from the non-theist. In Greek, logos and mythos are not opposites. They exist independently, neither in conflict nor support of each other. I see this discussion as the same: one rather moot, although your assertion about pragmatism is certainly worthy of exploration.
The Logos doctrine is a false representation of God
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Three words.
Back it up.
nvm i was thinking of a different thing.
but http://www.endtime.com/archive/ram/et12-21-06.ram
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
I call what you are encountering the 'Panglossian error", after the philosopher in Candide, who argued that we live in the best of all possible worlds.
Theists assume two contradictory things in their 'worldview' (snicker) that 1) there is an omnipotent, omniscient god, and 2) that the world must still, somehow, be precisely as it is.
The error is that point one obviates point 2. An omnipotent, omniscient 'creator' could create anything at all, even the 'impossible'... so this 'god' is not only responsible for free will and for creating all the parameters of existence (and thereby rendering the free will moot) but for 'deciding' to create free will in the first place, and deciding to 'give it to us' while fully, perfectly responsible for whatever ramifications follow.
Once a theist is taught to recognize the problems stemming from point 1, they can finally appreciate how irrational their position is.... which is why the fundies we meet do all they can to avoid thinking over such things (i.e. they fall to special pleads, etc.)
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6439295521791525424&q=doomsday+code
i gather you probably saw the word endtime in the link, and never even listened to the program.
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
This assumes that there can be a rational, coherent 'worldview' other than materialism. There isn't.
Ergo, theistic claims for the supernatural or immateriality merely steal the concept of materialism, just as 'christian morality' steals the concept from secular forms of morality based on empathy.
So the real problem in the debate is that the theist is unable to recognize these flaws.
I like what shaun says here:
The point here is that the vast majority of people--both theist and atheist--use the methodology of the scientific worldview except when they talk about religious claims. That is, they put on hold this neutral (secular) standard for evidence, belief, etc when they deal with these things. So yes, theists use different rules, conception, etc than scientists, but they do so without epistemological justification.
Precisely. Theists and atheists use the same methods. The sole problem, the sole difference, is that atheists (on this board at least) are consistent vis a vis religion, and theists are not. Theists gives their religious views 'special dispensation' and again, the debates center around exposing this irrationalism.
Which is precisely why you see contention on these boards... at some point the theist's argument ,no matter how intelligent on the surface, must be exposed as irrationalism.
PS I'm not equating atheism with materialism, there are atheists who are not materialists....
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
This is why Straifo's test is a good one: "You believe X, if you will act on X" Theism, most of the time, for most people, is just words and sitting in a stuffy room for an hour on Sundays. How many would actually take action on their supposed belief in the supernatural?
Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown
Ok, first of all. Its not limited to sundays. Second of all, in reality, church is not a building, church is fellowship between the body of Christ.
Lastly, you have never met an Apostolic Christian have you? I don't mean the Charismatic movement, thats a bunch of bologna. But the Bible states that when we receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, we have the authority of Christ. Just as my example of what Rev. David Shatwell did, he believed X, that God told him to go to the hospital, so he carried out X when he got there.
I keep on seeing this, the Christianity all of you are fighting, the only Christianity you know is Eccumenical Christianity (meaning the Christianity that was developed out of the old Catholic church with creeds, doctrines, holidays, etc.)
Some of you seem to know about the Holiness/Charismatic movement. This is a bunch of bologna in itself.
The Holiness/Charismatic people believe that they can have the spiritual gifts while still living in their "everyday lifestyle" or in other words sin.
In no way am i gloating, because there are things about my life that I am still working with God to better me with (nothing is instantaneous because of the PROCESS of time) but there are REAL Christians out there. Rev. Chester Wright, when he was in the Naval Acadamy was challenged, he was struck with so many beliefs. He wanted to know who God really was. So he desperately prayed, basically saying "whoever im praying to, whether you be allah, jesus, buddha, please reveal yourself to me, because I will follow you whomever you are". Rev. Wright was revealed the ONENESS of the Godhead, Jesus Christ being the fullness of the Godhead. Peggy Kenn, when she was a little girl, growing up in the Catholic church, she didn't know anything different, she was praying one day, and God revealed to her the ONENESS of the Godhead, and now today she is a Holy Ghost filled Apostolic Christian. Those are people I know.
I have one more account, i don't really know the person though. A friend told me that a guy she knows went to Catholic seminary school, never knew anything but Catholicism his entire life. He left seminary as a ONENESS Apostolic Christian. God had revealed to him His ONENESS while in seminary.
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Edit: Double Post
-GlamourKat
So, this one time... you know... when I was like... um... sixteen, or maybe 15, I can't remember...
Anyway, one time, this guy told me that there was this guy who had actually been on a spaceship with aliens...
And, so, like... um... this dude got to see these other planets, cause they like... um... hypnotized him and showed him all the places they had been, and all the planets they had, you know... um...you know... um... properscated... um... populated... or something...
And they showed him this book that these people on earth who were like people but they were gods, kind of.. cause they were like so... you know... technologically advanced that we were like... hey dude, it's magic...
Anyway, they were the um... Annannakki, or something... I can't remember...
Anyway, so like... you're wrong dude. Aliens created life on earth, and since somebody who saw them told me, I believe it.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
And I have no interest in reading this whole thread, but has anyone pointed out that the supposed pastor in this little tale was named "Shatwell?"
Does that not strike you as a little ironic? Maybe whoever made it up had a sense of humor.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
You know, if you want to debate using phony "miracle" stories and bible quotes, you should probably make sure of two things
1. They're relevant to the discussion at hand
2. You can back them up
Seriously, this thread is really dragging on. All you've really done is shed light on the blaring contradictions in the concept of omnipotence. Since I can probably predict the content of your posts at this point, I'm going to guess that you'll respond with "STOP PUTTING PHYSICAL LIMITATIONS ON THE ALMIGHTY WICKED-BAD GODHEAD!"
Look, I respect your knowledge of scripture. However, this thread isn't about that. You've made some pretty crazy assertions about god saving kids from gun shot wounds to the head, among other things. Try proving these things without scripture. All I'm hearing from you is "miracles exist because god exists because the bible says god exists and also the bible says god iniates miracles the end." If I wanted that kind of thing, I'd talk to a priest.
Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine
I've waited and waited for a reply to these questions.
Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.
making up stories for us to explain is ridiculous.
Testimony #1: Doctors can make mistakes. they make them frequently. they may think there is no chance of recovery but the patient ends up recovering because their body was able to do so.
I'm sick of Christians asking us to prove there is no God. The Christian God can be disproven if evolution is proven which i think will happen eventually (my opinion). But of course, there is no way of disproving A god. I mean there may be a god up there that absolutely no one knows about. But it's not any god we are told about in any religion.
To respond to the last post. You are only ASSUMING that the testimonies I have given are just stories i conjured up. You cannot just read something and say for a fact "this is false" just because you choose not to believe it.
for the creator of this post. YOU HAVE A DIRTY DIRTY DIRTY mind.
Let me give you this minister's information:
Richard D. Shatwell
102 E Broadway St, Okemah, OK, 74859-2817 (church addy)
PO Box 346,Okemah, OK, 74859-0346(mailing addy)
phone: 918-623-0386 or 918-623-0587
website:http://www.okemahupc.org (i believe the site may currently be down though)
Now here is a little testimony of my own. On July 28th of this year i went to go swimming with some friends out at Portlock beach in Hawaii Kai (which is on the island of oahu for those of you who don't know). This is on the south shore, and there was a hurricane close by (it didn't touch the islands but we felt the effect of it) so there were huge south swells. I looked at the water and had second thoughts about jumping in, but then this really hot girl that was with us decided that she wanted to go in, so she ran up to my jeep to change. I didn't wanna look like a "girly man" so while she was up there i go ahead and jump in. Of course I couldn't beat the current. I went in with whatever i had on. I had no fins, no board, nothing. I had a really hard time swimming and the waves were bashing me. I realized i needed to get out. So I started talking to Jesus. At this place you have to climb a small wall to get out of the water. I got to the wall, grabbed on to a stone that was sticking out, and the next thing i remember i was being dragged aboard a raft on the back of a jetski. I had just come back to consiousness and I was praying the whole way to the ambulance. When my pastor and friends came to visit me in the hospital i found out apparently i had made the news, and they just amazingly happened to be rescue swimmers TRAINING in that area at that same time, and i was rescued in under a minute. If i hadn't put my trust in God when i hit that water in the first place i would probably not be typing this right now.
Now for all you "give me sources people" im sure you can find something.
My name is Kyle Barcomb, the incident happened on July 28th 2006, I was at portlock beach in the town of hawaii kai on the island of oahu in the state of hawaii. Need any more information so you can look things up?
Lets see, I gave you address, phone number, website of Rev. Shatwell. I gave you my personal testimony.
Just because something "sounds" far fetched doesn't mean it didn't happen. Just because something isn't completely recorded doesn't mean it didnt' happen or doesn't exist. Verification is very good and important, don't get me wrong, but thre is this little thing i learned throughout the 21 years in my life, and that is called trust. Through trust I am able to know how to tell if a person is totally falifying me, or is honest. I know it is insanely difficult to do that through typed words yes, and even if i say trust me, you won't because you don't want to believe certain things can be true.
I know how yall are, and if you still don't believe me i can go on base next week, check out my medical record, make copies of the medical report from my accident, scan it to my computer and post it. Do i really have to go that far with you people?
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Nope, not nuts. I just love the truth thats all. Not only must I defend the truth from the atheistic community, but from 90% of mainstream christianity.
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
"Admittedly, once one decides in one’s own mind to reject the fallacy of God, the world indeed becomes a scary and lonely place, but one of truth not delusion."
Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine
JLY
How does your story prove that God had anything to do with your being saved? You attribute your praying, but those people were there and would have been there whether you prayed or not. You are thankng Jesus when you should have been thanking your good furtune to have those people there when you needed them.
That, and you need to be able to avoid peer pressure for being macho, rather than succumbing to said pressure.
Your story is not evidence for anything escept that people can do good things for one-another. You were lucky. There is no reason to attribute it to God.
Shaun
I'll fight for a person's right to speak so long as that person will, in return, fight to allow me to challenge their opinions and ridicule them as the content of their ideas merit.
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Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
I don't suppose there's evidence of this fiction? Because I could easily claim a story from Star Wars actually happened and so the Force must exist as a result. I could even show pictures. This is just words. Much like the bible, written by humans who are prone to exaggeration.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
One question I have is how do you know its the holy spirit? How do you know its not a demon pretending to be the holy spirit?
While I don't expect you to answet this I gotta say that I believe your belief is better categorized as a christian cult.
As far as I knew it Apostolic Christians just accepted the bible literally. They also do things that you renounce such as baptisms. However you claim that you can invoke the Godhead itself. That some people have invoked it and become a sort of lesser god. You talked about this Richard Shatwell character who by the way has a last name that just inspires anyone to be a comic. The website for your small church or fellowship is down, so I guess god doesn't want you to spread that message? In fact isn't it funny how 90% of christians got it all wrong, but you and your pals are sitting real pretty?
So are you telling us you and your church have a monopoly on salvation?
Yes. I have a dirty mind. No offense taken.
I also have a firm grasp on the concept of irony. Whether this man exists or not, it's funny. Deal with it.
I'm glad you lived through your harrowing event. I'm curious about something, though... where do you think people would train for water rescue? Maybe... um... in the water?
Are you aware that lots of people have drowned and not been rescued because they didn't happen to be near anyone who could help them?
Do you know anything about statistics at all? Lets take drowning people as an example. (I'm warning you ahead of time, I'm completely making these numbers up, but the point I'm illustrating is absolutely valid. Ask any statistician.)
Suppose that in one year, 500 people get into a situation where they need to be rescued or they will drown.
Out of those 500 people, 200 are Christian.
Out of those 500 people, 450 drown because nobody was there.
Out of the 200 Christians, 10 are among the 50 who were saved.
Out of the 10 Christians who were saved, 10 prayed to Jesus while they were drowning.
Is this a miracle? No. It's statistics, since any Christian worth a damn is going to pray when they're in trouble, and if they make it, they're going to think Jesus did it, when in reality, they're just a number, and don't have the mental fortitude to admit that they were just lucky. One hundred and ninety people prayed to Jesus and nothing happened. So much for miracles.
Or...
Suppose 100 people get a disease that is 98% fatal. 98 of them die. The two who lived both went to church, and both of their churches prayed for them. That proves that prayer works, right?
WRONG!!
It proves that statistically speaking, there's a good chance that the NATURAL recovery rate will coincide with people who are believers, since most people in the U.S. are theists. Again, approximately 55-60 Christians had their churches praying for them, and died.
It's called coincidence, and it happens all the time.
Sorry to tell you that you're no more special than me or anyone else, and you lived because of dumb luck.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Hamby: Laughing at "Shatwell" was the first thing I did. I'm wondering why more didn't catch that, but then again, not too many people use the word "shat".
Used in a sentance: When she shat on me and then got off on that, I knew right then and there that we were going to have to break up, well that, and making sure I leave off the last S for Savings when I call them tomorrow.
Even more delicious: Dick Shatwell.
I can't take it. Dick Shatwell's Septic Pumping. Shatwell's Portable Toilets. That man is in the wrong business! Sewage was his calling, and who'd he choose instead?
Every step I took in faith betrayed me
-Sarah McLachlan
When I was a kid, there was this couple at the church my family attended named Bob and Joy Dick. Bob was like 6'4" and maybe 185 pounds soaking wet. Joy was about 5'4" and maybe 185 pounds if she stripped naked. They had two girls named Angel and Mary, because they really liked the Bible.
I always felt oddly sad for those girls.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Well, I Flying Spaghetti Monster has informed me that the whole point of a "divine plan" is that it can't we changed. Otherwise, what'd be the point? The Flying Spaghetti Monster also demands that you give me names and phone numbers so I can verify this happened. The Flying Spaghetti Monster also wants me to convey how sad it is that all those people die or are harmed in tragedies like 9/11 that could have so easily been saved had they not been evil sinners unworthy of god's love on earth but worthier than those who survived and who have to now wait to go heaven. Sucks to be one of the survivors, doesn't it?
So this UPC does not agree with television but the internet, thats ok right?
This doesn't sound like a miraculous situation at all. There are several people including myself that have gone through similar situations. Of course miracles are often made in the mind, not by god.... And you do not need to give me sources for this one.
wow, you all like to jump to so many conclusions. First of all, you call yourselves SO SMART, completely jumping over the word OPINION and TELLING ME that every testimony i have given you IS FOR A FACT a work of fiction. Friends, I promise you that these testimonies are not a work of fiction, you cannot sit there and TELL ME that i am FOR A FACT lying. Same thing with the Bible, you cannot sit there and say FOR A FACT that it is a fairy tale. Your minds are warped into thinking there is no difference between fact and opinion.
Now getting pass that, knowing how smart you all are, melchisidec, you mentioned that the UPC is classified as a cult. Yet, even though you know everything about everything just like every other atheist knows everything about everything on this board, you would know that, defined, the word cult fits any religion/denomination of religion.
and being as smart as you are, knowing everything, you would know that everything you stated about what I "believe" is wrong. First off, let me establish this. I don't follow the United Pentecostal Church, I follow what has been revealed to me through the Holy Ghost, and the UPC is closest to that. If the UPC ever stepped away from this, and another "denomination" stepped closer, i would go with the "closer" one.
You tell me that i renounce baptism, yet I believe that without baptism one cannot be saved, because it is a washing away of sin. You tell me i invoke the Godhead, and become a "lesser god" doing so, yet there is no "invocation", its not some "magical incantation". The reason Father, Son, Holy Ghost is not used and Jesus is used, is because the "triune" formula is a doctrine adopted out of paganism along with many other things, and the Bible states that the name of Jesus is higher than any other name (Acts 4:10-12).
No denomination(church is not the right word to use here, because there is, by definition, 1 church, because its the fellowship of the body of Christ) has any "monopoly" on salvation friend, what i meant is 90% of Christianity is deceived by the trinitarian doctrine that was developed many many years after Peter preached the first sermon on the day of Pentecost. The UPC does not make up 10% of Christianity either.
I bow to your immense smartness Melchisidec, I bet you even know how your chosen name truely comes into play, Biblically. (get this right now, because i know this very well)
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
JesusLovesYou,
I am now telling you clearly that every testimony you have given...
...except for maybe the one that you supposedly experienced yourself. To that I would have to say you are delusional. I used to be a devout Christian, but even then I would have called you crazy. And as far as your blind acceptance of the other testimonies goes, you are an extremely gullible person. Even when I was a Christian, the preacher would afford his congregation the luxury of a source when telling sermon stories – even when he told them as fiction. And when it came to miracle stories, you could bet he would have at least a newspaper artical as proof. I guess some denominations are just more pathetically obscure than others.
On another note:
I cannot prove that there is no god, but if by chance there is a god, I am certain it isn't yours.
Flying Spaghetti Monster -- Great Almighty God? Or GREATEST Almighty God?
Jesuslovesyou,
What you did in your last post is predictable, but not very interesting. Guess what? Most of us are pretty damn smart. There are quite a few PhD candidates on these boards, and we've established in previous threads that a very large percentage of us have advanced degrees. We all like to read, and we surround ourselves with people who like to think.
Pointing a finger at us and saying, "You think you're so smart!" get s a result of "Yeah, so what's your point. We do think we're smart."
Here's the thing. You're the only person in this conversation who has said we know everything. Obviously we don't. What you're doing is something known in psychology as "all or nothing thinking." Since your arguments hold no water, you're using a passive agressive attack of creating this absolute (that we know everything) and then hoping we'll back off and cut you some slack since any dunder-head can attest to the fact that we don't know everything. It's also very common for people with irrational beliefs to attack people who are rational, since it's the only course left once you've been proven wrong.
If you'd like to continue talking, I'm sure lots of people will stay in the discussion, but you're going to have to do something besides whine about how we're being know-it-alls.
We don't know it all. We just happen to be right on this issue, and we can demonstrate it.
You'll hear no apologies from this end. Maybe you need to offer one for not bringing anything but heresay evidence to a forum devoted to science and logic.
Oh, and by the way, I'll bet you melchisidec knows more about his name than you do. We've had a board discussion on it more than once. He's a pretty smart dude, and doesn't just believe things because someone tells him. He looks them up.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Look braddah, Im sorry if I offended you. What Melchisidec said really pushed my buttons so i went off, because obviously he doesn't know the definition of cult, if he is in fact, like most people do, reserve it for the "lesser accepted by society" beliefs. Because of this use of the word cult people are back-offish of things, because it runs negative thoughts through their minds. My point there was, if you are going to use a word, use it properly. Then there was the point in him telling me what i believe, where he was wrong.
Advamced degrees? PhDs? do you want a cookie? I bow down to you because you have a piece of paper saying that you have studied something. Braddah, i have a degree plan as well, mine is in aviation electronics, what is yours? Just because a person has a glorified piece of paper doesn't mean that they are any smarter than any1 else. A person could have a degree in 1 thing, and also be very knowledgeable in another thing as well because they like to crack the books on their SPARE TIME.
here, friend, you are basically committing the same thing you accused ME of. Right here, you are basically stating that, because i carry the title of Christian that i don't know anything. Why don't you come to my place braddah, and ill show you my library of information.
Im sorry for calling you know-it-alls. I said it, because thats how the majority of you act, it wasn't a cop-out. Y'all go around spouting opinionated statements, claiming them as facts (not saying that all of your statements are opinionated)
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
What's that about the pot and the kettle?
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
I can at least, my friend, admit that my belief is A RELIGION (btw, by definition, atheism is too, so my friend, what you are trying to escape is inescapeable)
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Atheism isn't a religion, it's the absence of religion. If atheism is a religion, then bald is a hair color, perfect health is a disease and non-participation in sports is a sport.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
Atheism isn't a religion, theism isn't a religion either.
Buddhism is a religion, Christianity is a religion.
got it memerised?