Do you believe your god is all loving?

Do you think it's loving to allow certain people to go to a hell in which you know before their life begins they will go there?

Do you think it's loving to create hell?

Do you think it's loving to know that certain people would need a certain amount of proof to believe in God, yet that proof isn't provided, and therefore those people are predestined for hell?

Oh there are countless, things that would render God unloving that had nothing to do with free will. For example all natural disasters: hurricanes, earthquakes, floods, tsunamis. Even the story of Noah's Ark.

Think about Noah's Ark, JS. If God knew before he created mankind that he would need to kill everyone (except Noah and Co.) off in a worldwide flood, the loving thing to do is to revise your creation slightly so this disgusting attrocity would never have to happen. This flood would have been the most vile, heinous, disgusting, violent, and attrocius crime the world has ever known. There is so much blood on Gods hands that he can't be loving and all knowing at the same time... unless of course we redefine love to mean the opposite of how we see it.

the problem with this is that God gave them a chance to be saved.. but chosed not to. which reminds me of a joke

There was a heavy rain and evacuation was ordered. A firetruck came to assist an elderly woman...."No thank you. God will save me"

The water continues to rise...a boat happens along and yells to her to get in "No thank you. God will save me."

Water is real high now and she's on her roof.....a helicopter comes by..."No thank you. God will save me"

Well....this lady eventually drowns and when she meets the Lord, she says " Lord, why did you let me die..I had Faith you would save me"

God says.." I sent a firetruck, a boat, a helicopter....."

well the point of the parent discipline is to say that:

God wouldn't be loving if he allowed corruption to go free.

Yes. Is it loving if those parents put you into the fireplace and allowed you to burn to death while you scream in agony?

Question is moot and not on topic considering not everyone who would go to hell in your gods eyes are murderers.

Another problem is that when a parent disciplines a child, the idea is to improve them. Obviously, if hell is eternal, that can't be the case here! And you can't say the threat of hell does that, because anyone who doesn't believe in God isn't going to believe in hell, either. By any sane, logical, unbiased analysis, the doctrine of hell is an extremely cruel idea.

God predestination of human events does not eliminate human choice.
according to what I've been reading there are two views of predestination:

calvinism and Arminianism

1 is calvinism- God offers irresistible grace to those whom he elects to save.

in this choice God chooses the believer

2. Arminianism-- God's grace is the source of redemption but that it can be resisted by people through free choice

in this choice the believer chooses God

Christians would agree that creation is moving into the purpose of God which is complete comformity.

No person deserves salvation. but Gods grace is universal. His salvation is for everyone who believes.

no I mean set free without doing any time at all.. and yeah I know not all lawbreakers do anything serious. but that is in our eyes where we set the limits of what is considered right or wrong. what is considered as a human being? is it someone who is smart like bill gates if that is considered as a good human being then a bad human being must be someone who is mentally retarded. but a sin is a sin in Gods eyes. stealing is stealing no matter what.. the only sin that isn't forgiveable is rejecting the Holy Spirit.

well the purpose for hell was to set apart the unclean from the clean. if you understand what I am saying.

well because no one oculd bare there sins.. we are all unclean fallen sinners. who need to be dust off. so Christ came down to do that. without Christ we are not saved. He is our only mediator

again humans look at it as a big sin and a small sin... people would rather hang out with the one who lies little than the one who lies a lot.. what for they are both liars the one who is a liar is capable of lieing agian.
well, when you mean believing do you mean at a knowledgable believing in him? for that isn't what you want.. for satan and the demons know God so that must mean that he is saved.

no worries even the jews had the same problem:

there are three kinds of beliefs

John 6:28-35

a inherited- 6:30 had inherited beliefs didn't believe because reality but tradition

intellectual- mind- 6:30- they wanted to believe in their heads.

then the you have the
Intimate knowledge- In the heart relationship rather than religion
6:32-35

but even still when you don't put your trust( its the fatono type love, brotherly love) in what Jesus did on the cross and that He rosed agian and that God also who raised Christ from the dead will raise you up. then yes you have a problem you are basically saying you can take your sin to God Himself.

JesusSaves, in order to PERMANENTLY put out your all-loving-God argument, I will make a comparison. Consider it the loving parent vs. loving god comparison, that goes like this:

- loving parent does not know child mistakes, loving god does
- loving parent tries to correct the mistake AT THAT POINT, loving god doesn't do anything
- if mistake is bad enough, loving parent applies punishment, loving god doesn't necessarily (you can be forgiven in the face of god if you kill your baby brother with a pillow)
- if mistake isn't as the type described above, loving parent applies punishment that ends, so does loving god, but his punishment does not end
- loving parent applies punishment with the purpose of forcing the child to admit and correct (if possible) his error, why loving god applies punishment truly evades me, since there is nothing else left after punishment begins

So stop the bullshit that God is so all-loving. My parents are far better tan your God.

And what would be the purpose of that exactly ?

Couldn't God have simply forgiven us? What was the point of the death/resurrection sharade? I fairly doubt that in the face of an omniscient, omnipotent God (though this is in itself a paradox), a "mediator" as you call it really would make any difference at all.

It's funny, you know... by this quote you describe the Roman law system. Again, the point of the last post remains.

Well than why do you not address this little paradox you've just brought us? No worries, I will do that for you:
I strongly believe this is the only valid belief. Should you have been raised by a Muslim family, you would be a Muslim.
...but did they succeed?
And how do you know that it is not the devil that is settled down in your heart and is tempting you to believe that you love an all-loving, etc. God, and, through this optics, do Crusades and Djihads, etc. ? Because frankly, this option seems to be the most likely, considering (not only) recent events.

Awaiting response.

Interesting. Who does he hate then? Who is he indifferent to? I'd really love your God to be perfectly indifferent to MY future or status, and just let me simply stay dead after I die.

Well, you see, here is the main difference between you and me, I presume. I live in a judicial system where death penalty exists for just one thing (severe crimes against humanity), life sentence exists for only three things (minor crimes against humanity, crimes against the nation and gruesome murder), and the maximal sentence is, if I remember correctly, 25 years. Our system is based on the possibility of human redemption. You stole, OK, you pay your penalty, but after that, you have the chance of starting your life again as an equal member of society. Our system is not necessarily based on punishing the guilty and that's it, but also to rehabilitation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the USA, if you go and break the windows of 20 cars, you are convicted for 20 crimes. Here you are convicted for only one. There are differences, however, no system actually condemns a person for eternity except for God's system.

Hell is not a prison. In prisons, you do not keep people for eternity. And theoretically at least, you do not torture them for eternity. Plus: I cannot understand why Torquemada (the famous leader of the Spanish Inquisition, for those who don't know) is more worthy of Heaven than someone who simply doubts God's existance, but is perfectly honest and kind otherwise.

Actually, the chances for the opposite to happen are pretty slim. But let's not get into genetics, you are not ENDOWED with belief in God. All new-born are atheists, since they cannot possibly understand what this "God" can be. Therefore, your example isn't exactly the best one.

Please tell me that if you were taught from 1 year-old onwards that it's bad to pick your nose, and were repressed every time you did that, you wouldn't feel even now a sense of uneasiness while taking your finger up your nasal cavities.

Of course. Your brother didn't teach you about God, your parents did (generally). Thank you for making my point valid.

Nevermind.

Simple. There have been Crusades, Djihads, the Inquisition, etc. These should not be acceptable by the way you are presenting God. So, how do you know it wasn't Satan that ordered them, and that he didn't mask himself so that the orders appeared to come from God? On this matter, an interesting idea to read: Clive Barker - Children of the Corn (or watch the movie).

The option that what has happened during history and the thoughts that fanatics today have are actually coming from the Devil and are masked to look like they are coming from God seems a lot more likely than otherwise. How can you be sure of the truth ? Answer that to me.

PS: Sorry for the late reply. I was busy these nights (I went into two night-time photo shoots for a local club, and had to keep on taking pictures till 6-7 in the morning)

I present a simple question in answer to your views on how we are predestined. God is omniscient, god is omnipotent. If got is omniscient, that means that he knows everything that has and will happen without fail. This means that God is NOT omnipotent, because he would be unable to change the course of events that are predestined already. Of course, you could claim that if God wanted to change things he could, but that would destroy his omnipotence thing, because if he was omnipotent why would he need to change anything? His omnipotence is completely controlled by his omniscience, and vice versa.

God's predestination actual does limit human choice. Predestiny means that no matter what you do you're heading towards your fated end.

God already knows who will reject "Him", so the believer has no choice to reject him or not. God knows from the get go what you will do, yet this being supposedly allows for "free will"? Not even close. Even in the above examples you cite, there is still no free will. Unless god isn't omniscient, but then it isn't god.

Calling this all free will is like strapping a kid to an electric chair, pulling the switch, and then yelling at him for dying/driving up your electrical bill.

-=Grim=-

Feel better dude. I know the feeling. I just got over a stomach bug. Blegh.

:smt078 <---Grim

-=Grim=-

I will say one thing before I go back to the question of rigor_mortis, I've been thinking a lot lately, and it seems most even Christians only look at predestination as there being 1 person involved. infact, don't take me as a fool for saying this(its only how I am currently trying to grasp this).

But what if one person went to the airport wanting to get on a airplane but instead he was rejected.

now if we had no freedom at all we wouldn't feel horrible for not getting on the airplane.

who did God predestined? the person who rejected the guy or the guy who was rejected who God predestined for him to actually get on?
(sorry, my example is a little off, its one of those things where I can see it in my mind what I want to say but then when I say it. its not coming out right).

(1) If you don't know what you think about a thing, why believe in it?
(2) If you don't know what you think about something, how do you know he has Justice and these other attributes? There's an awful lot of uncertainty here for such a strong and influential worldview.
(3) Justice is a relative term. There is no "absolute Justice" unless to prescribe to John Rawls' "Teory of Justice" (fantastic book), which if you do that then there is no room for Hell.

(1) So Buddhists and Taoists are going to Hell because they don't trust in the "work" Jesus did on the cross? Some God...

I thought Baptism for an infant was for "original sin", washing away the sin so the kid can not go to purgatory or Hell (or something like that) should he or she die before Communion and Confirmation?

You're not willing to answer it? Or you will answer it after you thought about it for a day or two? The former I'd take as running away from a losing argument after being backed into a corner. The latter is understandable. But the phrase is worded a bit strangely. You do mean that you'll eventually try to answer it, right? I'd like to see how you answer the quetion posed. Especially if you can do it without the "faith cop-out" answers.

-=Grim=-