Jesus, Satan, or both?
Offline The following will no doubt upset many naive Christians, but if anyone wishes to indulge in Christian lore, the image of Jesus and God has an amazing twist that few Christians realize or want to think about. It begins from two incredible verses from the Old Testament :
AND Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
AND again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
Either the above examples give evidence for a grand error or fiction in the Bible or else we have Satan and the Lord as the same entity! Also from the Old Testament we have the revelation of the creator of evil:
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
-God in -Isaiah 45:7
How many Christians realize God as the creator of evil? And if you believe that Jesus equals God in the flesh, then Jesus must also hold responsibility for the creation of evil. (See also evil and good from God: Lamentations 3:38-39)
Now here comes an even more shocking Bible realization: the name "Lucifer" (another name for Satan) means light bearer, or morning star.
On the very last page of the Bible Jesus reveals himself and provides the amazing kicker ending of the entire "Holy" Bible:
I am the root and offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
And the very last words of Jesus in the Bible, makes it the greatest and longest lived lie of all time (something only a devil would say):
Surely, I come quickly.
Perhaps the reader will now understand why some Satanist cults use the same Bible as the Christians.
Note:
The idea of the name Lucifer as synonymous with Satan goes back for centuries. In Isaiah 14:12, St. Jerome, translated the Hebrew word for "morning star" into the Latin term "Lucifer" (light bearer), a name commonly ascribed to Satan by Christians, and represents the fallen star, an ancient symbol for the fallen or evil one. In the NRSV Bible version, Isaiah 14:12 describes the fallen as "O Day Star, son of Dawn!" The Day Star, or morning star actually refers to the planet Venus, although, of course, the ancients did not know about planets. Venus always appears low on the horizon and the ancients thought of it as a star fallen from heaven (fallen angel). Venus also appears as the brightest "star" in the sky, thus the reference to the "bright and morning star" in Rev. 22:16. Although the Isaiah verse describes the fallen king of Babylon, Christians have, for centuries, ascribed Satan as taking many forms (for example the serpent). Thus, a conclusion, based on Christian beliefs of Satan, and the belief in the "inerrancy" of the Bible, one must conclude that Jesus has revealed himself as Satan!
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Or they were both involved in the situation. Satan thought that provoking David this way would turn him against God, but God knew that it would ultimately have the opposite effect, so let it go ahead.
Do you know the difference between the words "create" and "created"? It says "create" (present tense), meaning it's something God is doing at the time, yet you're misreading it to say "created" (past tense), that it's something God did earlier. There seems to be a lot of that going on on this board. What's less obvious for people who know their English, though still true, is that the Hebrew word translated as "evil" here is "ra", which, in the context of the verse, means "trouble", not "wrongdoing." The Hebrews would not have understood this to mean that God created wrongdoing, and most Bibles don't translate this word as "evil".
Uh-huh. He was originally an angel, and "morning star" is a positive thing. He didn't change it when he went naughty.
Again, it's something positive. You surely aren't reading this to say that Jesus is Lucifer, are you?
He was referring to the judgment on Jerusalem, which happened in 70 AD. That was pretty quick, if you ask me.
Or it reveals something about you that I'm too polite to say.
David
Hey, maybe it wasn't silly enough to have god in 3 parts. I alread heard suggested in addition to the Father, Son and Holy Spigot ... er... Spirit, there'd be the computer repair guy for when they have problems. Maybe Satan is the 5th part, the rebellious nephew? Don't they have any pets, too? How about the Most Sacred Cat, Fluffy? Could some gods from other religions maybe be the neighbors? Maybe Jesus argues with Thor about all the noise he makes? Dionysus would be a good drinking buddy. Actually I guess so would Jesus - all you'd need to do would get a few gallons of tap water and he could change it into your drink of choice! That would be cheap!
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
Why does it matter, when god created evil.. or if he is creating it right now?
Surely you can agree that god is responsible for evil.
What exactly happened here? Is there any evidence at all, that this took place?
Do you think this will happen again, another judgement day
God is the omnimax creator by definition of major religions. If there is evidence that the religion is incorrect about the nature of reality, then there is evidence that the God the religion defines does not exist.
Very imaginative, but this doesn't resolve the Biblical contradiction between I Chronicles and II Samuel.
Ho, ho. And you accuse "me" of misreading. I didn't write "created," I wrote CREATOR. Do you know the difference between a creator and one who creates? A creator, creates. It makes no difference when. Your non sequitur crumbles among flawed logic.
Again very imaginative, even if you are right (which would only make my point that the Bible contains contradictions and errors). The fact is the most popular Bible in the world uses the word "evil."
The noun form of the Hebrew word ra' is commonly translated as evil. Evil as in wrong, woe, misery, distress, etc., all of which, of course describe the character of evil. Whether other Bibles use synonyms of 'evil' doesn't detract from the injurious nature of this cruel jealous god who has no qualms about killing innocent men, women, and children.
The 'morning star' refers to the planet Venus which the ancients thought was a falling star and derives from Isaiah 14:12. Whether you believe Satan (or Jesus) was once an angel only supports the contention that he was a fallen star (fallen angel). Whether or not you believe this was a positive thing says nothing about its interpretation, but a lot about your mental proclivities.
Judgement on Jerusalem? Very imaginative considering that the penultimate verse in the Bible has nothing to do with Jerusalem (which would't be much of a Revelation) and that Christians around the world take this to mean his second coming (or first, or third, depending on which set of beliefs they own).
The examples come from the Bible, not from me.
If you believe these Bible stories in ANY context, then you have only shown your gullibility and willingness to support an evil (or woeful, or miserable) collection of superstitions.
Need I remind you the title of this site is RATIONAL RESPONDERS?
I suggest that you take your fanciful interpretations of the Bible?along with your "too polite to say" comments?elsewhere.
There's no reason to get snarky.
-=Grim=-
Or nothing. you and your fucking selective reading.
: the anger of "The Lord" caused him to move david into action to number israel.
THE OPERATIVE WORD IS "AGAIN".
FIRST: satan provoked david to number israel.
SECOND("AGAIN"
*ahem* how could the lord command david "AGAIN" (meaning 'an additional time') if he never did it in the first place...satan did it the first time...UNLESS SATAN = THE LORD???????????
i've only been reading this board for a few days and i'm already completely sick of your shit, "king david" (what a vain name for a christian in the first place).
Fear out
feh!
Fear is the mindkiller.
Pfft! Tell that to KingDavid8
It's aimed at everyone, up to and including KingDavid. Rational debate is pointless and impossible once name-calling begins. People arguing defensively usually become dogmatic in their stance, as opposed to keeping an open mind.
-=Grim=-
No Nyarlathotep, Know Peace.
Know Nyarlathotep, No Peace.
agreed, and i apologize. however, rational debate gets a bit taxing when one side repeatedly answers questions with the same incomplete thoughts, one-sided analyses, and nit-picking. and he does this in ev'ry....single....damn....thread.
that, and multi-colored text always gets me all riled up.
Fear out
Fear is the mindkiller.