Thoughts on the state of "atheist vs. theist"
Offline This is troubling me, and I think it is why I keep coming back here. I am a Christian, therefore, my arguments come from that Christian worldview. Oftentimes I have simply reiterated a Christian point, and then, to my surprise several people attack what I have said, called me a liar, arrogant, rude, prideful, etc. And I’m left wondering, what on earth did I say that incited so much anger? Truth is, I am a caring person who wants to improve and make a positive impact on the world. I love animals, I respect the earth, I think we need to take better care of it. If I’ve harmed someone, I want to make amends, etc. So, I honestly do not understand where your anger comes from. Is it simply because I don't agree with you?
Taking my Christianity out of the equation, I am a person, I have opinions, I feel strongly about my opinions because they have been formed from decades of searching, thinking, turning things over in my mind. I am no different than you, in that respect. It just so happens that you came to different conclusions than me. But, I can tell, you feel equally strongly about your beliefs and feel I would be better off if I were atheist. You know that I feel you would have a richer experience in this life if you believed in God, not necessarily even the Christian God. So, tho our opinions are different, the way we are approach each other is really not so different. In light of that, what I do not understand is why we cannot converse like adults, hear each other’s view points, accept that we are both attempting to influence the other side with those view points, and let go of all the meanness and personal put downs?
I don’t know who here is American, but what I see happening in this country and throughout the world is deeply troubling. There is a divide growing between the secular and religious communities, and the two need to come back to the center and start communicating better in order to make some honest compromises. We have to live in this world together. You are never going to eradicate the worship of God, I am never going to get everyone to see the need to worship God. Most likely, you are not going to deconvert me, nor am I going to convert you. So, can we, instead start listening, and refrain from judging others ideas as stupid, baseless, juvenile?
Also, I do not feel the “delusional” label you have placed on theists is going to get us anywhere positive. I can just as easily call you delusional. The fact is, you are not in my brain, I am not in yours. You have not had my experiences, I have not had yours. So, you can no more honestly judge me delusional than I can judge you.
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Well, being from the bible belt I can tell you innumerable stories about xtians that are less than flattering. I don't dwell on them too much, because it would lead to a very dim outlook on the human race, and I happen to like being human.
No Gods, Know Peace.
Speaking for myself, I realize you have emotions, are capable of being moral, etc. I never thought otherwise. As a whole, you are much harsher than those I go to church with. To be honest, it's like night and day. However, to be fair, I went to a Christian forum and they were disagreeing quite a bit. However, there weren't the same base, rude comments about people's beliefs and character, nor were they snapping back and forth with sarcasm and the like. Again, I am just sharing my observations. You can take them or leave them. But, I thought it might be helpful for you to see an outsider's opinion. As far as atheism and morality, it seems like a mixed bag, but the general consensus I am seeing on this thread is the Golden Rule is the highest moral precept, with the rest flowing from there. Personally, and this is just my opinion again--take it or leave it--but I think that the Golden Rule alone without the acknowledgement of a higher power makes for a weak overall moral framework, i.e., it's like building your house on sand rather than rocks. I think that is partly why some of the discussions here can get pretty nasty. Again, my opinion. For me, personally, I generally try not to throw out the first comment that comes to mind, but first consider it against what I understand the character of God to be (i.e., absolute truth). As I am human tho, those purely (I call them) instinctual comments still come out sometimes.
Thank you for your insights.
I've lost count of the times I've been told I'm going to go to hell, or I'm a bad person, evil, etc. I had a boss who not-so-jokingly called me a 'heathen'.
If god takes life he's an indian giver
double post
How so, sugar? Precisely why does one need to believe in a higher power in order to see the worth of the golden rule? There are plentiful examples of people who profess belief in a higher power yet commit acts which we find morally objectionable.
There are no theists on operating tables.
You didn't have to change your pic!
Just haven't gotten to your post yet.
No problem! It is a difficult question to answer but I am truly interested in your response. Congratulations on your pregnancy and I wish you the best of health!
Please explain if morality is not subjective and it comes from god, why do not all chrisitans follow the same moral code? There are some morality issues in the bible, but first I would like to hear your answer to this. You ignored it in your last post.
I have not visited other forums so I cannot comment on the behavior of them. I have visited places such as Atheism Sucks and I can assure you, any negativity you might perceive on this forum can easily be seen on that particular Christian forum.
As far as the sarcasm and snapping, I don't really see much of a difference between that and how people around me behave on a daily basis. That being said, I come from New Jersey and I understand that we don't exactly have a reputation for being friendly.
This is also a debate forum, and when people feel very strongly or passionately about something, sometimes tempers flare, as you have admitted yourself. I don't think it would be fair to equate rudeness and atheism.
I'm not quite sure I understand your analogy of the house on rocks vs. sand. Why can't one follow the golden rule or be moral without god? Morality truly is subjective and it's based on societal norms and needs. Think about it, it's perfectly 'moral' and justified to stone a woman to death in many Islam countries for what we would consider to be very minor infractions (if any actual infraction at all!)If god takes life he's an indian giver
If you're trying to watch out for religions that came after Jesus, wouldn't that include Christianity?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Utilitarianism is really more of a guide for choosing rules than individual acts, and the basic premise is that each person’s happiness counts the same so it’s very difficult to use it to justify “evil acts”. Can you give an example?
The only difference I see there is that the religious way allows groups of people to routinely thwart the common good based on superstition.
The reason that utilitarianism would permit stem cell research is because a human blastocyst doesn’t have the ability to experience happiness or unhappiness. So if you’re talking about the suffering of the embryo, there is none.
You seem to be making a kind of slippery slope argument. The problem with slippery slope arguments in my view is that they do not address the problems or concerns of any person. They deliberately ignore the concerns and needs of the individual in question and instead offer speculation as to what may or may not happen to some heretofore unnamed and unknown individual at some future time. This in my opinion is one of least constructive courses of action available.
It’s really kind of sad because if I was terminally ill and there was a way to possibly help me, I would want people to look at the facts and make a rational decision. I wouldn’t want them to stand around trying to divine what some being that they don’t even have any proof exists thinks about it by referring to an ancient book. I mean why not just throw some bones on the ground to see what the fates have in store. It’s 2007!
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
Most of us don't even believe Jesus ever actually existed. And the Jesus character in the BuyBull was far from admirable:
http://www.ffrf.org/nontracts/jesus.php
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
Man this god thing you believe in is awesome! I think you are starting to win me over... I may have to convert.
Your "god" helps you with your littlest concerns, that is very appealing. I want to know more. Can you explain more? Please?
Like... was god helping you with your programming code when 32 people were being shot to death in a Virginia college? ..or helping you make dinner when a tsunami was wiping out a few small island in indonesia? ...or helping you get the kids off to school while planes were being crashed into the WTC? ...or helping you paint a room when tornados are ripping through Texas? ... or helping you watch American Idle while Louisiana was being battered by hurricanes? ...or helping you get a haircut while earthquakes are tearing Turkey apart?
I could go on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on.
Is it not petty to claim god is helping you with your "littlest" concerns while people are dying every second? Children, grandparents, parents, brothers, sisters, cousins, babies....
Thank you for your response - this helps! Yes, I do have more questions. How did you arrive at the above conclusion? I think it is fair to say you could not have arrived at it as an infant or even a small child (even if you felt this was true at the time but were unable to verbalize it). Were you raised in an environment that believes as you do now or is this something that you have concluded as an adult?
but god still trumps. You can't have two things that can oppose each other be the basis for a moral framework. Because invariably, there will come a time when you ahve to chose between one or the other.
but with the growing specificity of scientific advancement there is also an imparative to have an informed discussion. I agree that science needs to have discussion about what should and should not be done, however all sides need to be informed as to what they are discussing. The only reason that more advancement has made with "adult stem cells" is because that's where President W has decided funding needs to go, and your options are limited with all somatic stem cells since they are pluripotent(they can only become so many things, so the possibilities for research are limited). Whereas embryonic stem cells are considered totipotent (they can become any cell in the body). ESC's can increase the knowledge of the formation of tha human body as a whole, while most SSC's can only give rise to a specifiic subset of cells (adipose, immune...).
No Gods, Know Peace.
Wow, my school's CS curriculum didn't include programming by miracle. Can you use the miracle function to reverse cryptographically secure hashing algorithms?
It's only the fairy tales they believe.
That reminds me of something I read somewhere a while ago that God's thinking must be like "Hmm Should I help the little girl who's being raped, the 14 people being held hostage by a psychotic killer, the people about to be killed by an earthquake, or the woman who has a stain on her new dress? Well... bye bye stain! OK, now let's see, A school bus full of children about to go off a cliff? Nah! The people being tortured by a third world dictator? Nope, that might interfere with free will? The people about to be killed by a tsunami? Well, why'd I cause it in the first place? Oh no! 14 year old Suzy has a pimple and she has a date with her boyfriend tonight! Well, I can't let her date be ruined like that!"
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
Nah, he wasn't trying to trap you. You did that well enough on your own.
Take the words of Job 38:2 to heart. It's what you're doing but I don't think you see it.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Remind me that I decided a long time ago it's stupid to open up to theists. Geez, you'd a thunk I'd have learned by now, wouldn't you? And I take back anything I might have said to defend you. You are behaving very, very arrogantly.
Geezus H. Cheeerist on pogo stick!
Arrogant, obnoxious, delusional, emotionally-led theist, you are on your own.
And by the way, it's illegal to give medical advice if you're not a doctor. You don't know jack shit. You haven't examined me and you don't know what my diet consists of. Un-fucking-believable. I don't eat high carb meals and I don't eat sugar, period. Why? I'm diabetic. So, thank you Dr. Sugarfree for your utterly superfluous (and illegal) advice.
And if you want to understand my emotional lability where you are concerned, re-read your posts and look in the mirror.
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People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
There is nothing to prevent a person from pointing out the errors of someone with a higher IQ. I think that this is just a clever tactic. The terms used in these posts i.e. hermeneutics, epistemological, presuppositionalist, are employed so frequently on these boards that after more than 300 posts you should know very well what they mean, and I suspect that you do.
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
Ohhhhhhhhhh, Sugarfreeeeeee! Are you out there?
Please respond, I would love to hear you address this.
Wow! Note to sugarfree: This was completely out of line!! You have zero credentials to start handing out this kind of advice - well-intended or not! I have tried to keep you focused on the reason you came here in the first place, but I am done. This has gone way beyond you wanting to engage in civil conversation and has alternated between you crying and now giving out misguided advice. NO THANK YOU!
Iruka - I too have gotten the "over-sensitive" label. Noise, light, smells, touch (fabric) etc. To be honest I never really investigated it that much...just made adjustments around it to keep me happy. Like a divorce. Helped the noise level a lot - lol!
Unbelieveable. I offer you hard scientific facts and you still basically tell me to go to hell... But since hell does not exist, I should be okay.
Staying in a sugarfree thread over four pages long - Aggravating
Reading posts, formulating arguments, and trying to get sugarfree to respond - Highly annoying
Finally seeing Iruka rip sugarfree for this post and seeing sugarfree pwned - PRICELESS
{edited for clarity}
Sugarfree, the reason people are getting upset is because you're not sticking to the topic at hand.
You're answers are becoming a bit petulant as well. If you're getting frustrated, say so. I think people here are trying to make a concerted effort to keep an open dialogue with you and you're not really returning the favor.
If god takes life he's an indian giver
See you in the next life.
Yes, my little experiment is over. And the answer is, No.
Doesn't exist...
If it did I am sure we would not be in the same place, THANK DOG!
Yep, we'll be at the beer volcano and stripper factory while she's stuck in antarctica.
Thank you for the inquiry, but I have decided not to offer any more tidbits about myself.
See you in the next life.
There's no evidence for that either. Have fun talking to yourself.
Anyone know why everything in this thread is in italics now?
Yes, my little experiment is over. And the answer is, No.
Don't be coy. You've had ONE argument. You've repeated it across THREE threads.
Sigh. I always try to be nice and I get ignored. Alas.
I have no idea why everything's in italics. I also have some sort of comment on one of my posts that I definitely did not write.
And my posts are getting double posted.
Maybe it's god fucking with us. Or maybe it's a computer glich. I'm going for the latter.
If god takes life he's an indian giver
If you take what I am going to say here as a matter of pride, so be it. Never in my life have I been treated as rudely and disrepectfully as I have on this site. And that is no whine. That is the cold hard truth based on 3 decades of experience. If this is your humanist morality in action, I feel it is ineffective in many areas. Now, as I do not wish to sin on your account any longer, I must refrain from speaking to you again.
Sugar ignores everyone from time to time. We still love you though.
Yeah, your morals don't allow rudeness. Just massive intellectual dishonesty.
I think you're just picking and choosing what to be offended by. I've been very nice to you and you pretty much ignored that. I'm pretty sure there are other people on this thread who have been quite polite to you but you're focusing on people being rude. You insult and offend people, Sugarfree, and you don't even realize it. That's why it's so frustrating.
If god takes life he's an indian giver
Aww, shucks. Thanks!
If god takes life he's an indian giver
WHAT fucking hard scientific facts have you offered? Where the fuck are they? You are hypocritical, arrogant and full of yourself! You have betrayed everyone's trust and lost any and all respect. You act like a child...no, that is not quite true since I can have rational discussions with children. You act like a spoiled brat!! Have a nice love affair with God. Planning to name the baby Jesus??
I have noted that you are polite, nice, respectful, etc. I am not lumping you in with the comment I just made to BGH about the atmosphere on this site. I think many of the people here are doing a great disservice to your worldview. However, I repect you and your right to believe what you do. Thanks for not tearing off any of my flesh.
Sadly for you, I have found out, on this site you get what you give from most people. Posters take a lot of time refuting your agruments and formulating their responses, and you see fit to just ignore them. That is not respect, you will not get repect from me if you treat me without any. I ask you questions and I am serious, you take affront to my tone and proceed to bitch and whine, get over yourself. We all get offended from time to time, but you refuse to give the atheists here any respect whatsoever with your arguments from emotion. We are trying to have a debate, respond to the arguments a stop giving illegal medical advice!!
I appreciate your response to my post, Sugarfree, thank you.
I'm trying to consider this thread from your position. Perhaps you are getting a little defensive because it really is many to one. Meaning, you are really the only theist posting on this thread but you have many atheists questioning and challenging you at the same time. Perhaps you aren't able to give each post it's proper consideration? I could see, I suppose, why you might feel attacked.
However, BGH is right that it does take an awful long time for people to post these, as I'm sure it does you. People get very annoyed because you do avoid certain posts and answer others. It also seems to me that you're not really taking what the other people are saying into consideration. Meaning, you have to think outside of your box a little. If you don't know what something means, look it up first. If you don't understand after that, then tell us. The more frustrated everyone gets, the more... rough the thread becomes.
That being said, I hate to tell you but you do need to get a bit of a thicker skin. Remember, debating isn't about emotion, it is about fact and logic. The more you batter us and tell us how mean we are being to you, the more annoyed everyone is going to get.
If god takes life he's an indian giver