We all understand that theists hope the evidence against their theories was wrong.

There is no burden of disproof. 

Scientists come up with theories and see if the evidence matches their theories.

Exactly.

Faith is believing something you don't have evidence for.

Science tests evidence.

The scientists have.

The evidence has shown evolution, yes.

Yes. 

Exactly.

That's how we know the multiple ways that the first cells could develop purely by natural processes, yes.

What did you think science was called?

It's great that we can say that, I know.

That's not what I said, is it?

False. The final nail in the coffin for Christianity's claim that we are descendants from Adam and Eve was the sequencing of the human genome.

Humans evolved from more primitive life forms, and we'll continue evolving away from our current form, eventually into a different species.

There's no reason. The science is in.

We're all made of 'stardust'

But you're an ignorant Christian, and you're completely powerless against the science and the world.

Woulda

Coulda

Shouda

But instead, you're an ignorant Christian.

And you're even stupid enough that you think you can win against the science, and float away after death and be 'one' with the man you love...

Ugh...

Again, I submit 'ring species' as an example of evidence for evolution because it clearly illustrates speciation. The populations bordering each other can interbreed, but the populations that are more geographically separated cannot. Now, one of you genius prophets explain to me how Creationism explains a ring species.

I actually agree with you...lol

Psychiatrists are MD's.

Psychologists are Phd's or Ed.D's.

Psychiatry is about studying and treating mental disorders. That's the science of medicine.

To that extent, I agree that most theists would qualify as being emotionally dysfunctional, and would benefit from psychoanalysis, but most of them would become as irrational at that suggestion as the suggestion that their gods might not be real.

Psychology would be the study of how they developed their dysfunction, or what triggered it.

Psychiatry and Psychology are not interchangeable terms.

But science doesn't happen instantly. Sometimes a hypothesis does appear accurate for ages before a new hypothesis explains the aspect in greater detail and less flaws. The single greatest example is gravity.
Newton came up with a hypothesis to explain gravity that was, as far as anyone could tell, perfectly accurate. It was awhile before any problems with it were even suspected, if I recall correctly. And yet, generations later, we know thanks to Einstein that Newton was not wholly correct.
Of course it is unlikely that Einstein could have figured it out had not Newton proposed the idea and therefore subjected it to centuries of tests.
But this is science determining what existence IS. Not what it means.
Meaning is something we seek to satisfy our ego and our emotions. By implying meaning to anything, we are presupposing that there is meaning. When there might not be.
Even the existence of a god wouldn't necessitate meaning.

What if the omnipotent superbeing you believe in really does exist, but its creation of the universe was an accident it is oblivious to? We would be as bacteria to such a being, if even that much. Why would we expect it to comprehend us anymore than we can comprehend it?
Meaning is something we seek or give to feel comfortable, but it doesn't necessarily even have a basis in reality. And there is no way to test meaning, insofar as I'm aware. The meaning of life is different for different beliefs, and there is no way to judge which, if any, is accurate.
The only meaning one can have is the meaning one embraces. If you feel embracing the meaning religion gives that's fine. But you don't need religion to embrace a meaning to life. Anything that comforts you or feels right is legitimate. Science may explain why we desire meaning, but it is unlikely to provide an absolute meaning to everything. It may not be possible.

Brilliantly said.

QFT

any of those people. I'll google them. (after Burn Notice -Netflix-of course) We didn't rely to much on outside opinions or input. We found that to many were inaccurate and made a worse problem.

I'm sorry, but that was largely incomprehensible. I'm not clear on what you're trying to say.

deception is for,  to create a dysfunction.

I am engaging in a patient discussion. I made a simple statement, you're temper is rendering you dysfunctional. I'll forward your reply to our psycho guy. Am I to assume that atheists don't believe in a God because they are dysfunctional, I don't think so, not hardly. Why is everyone else dysfunctional and your not. You want to compete---competition is an animal trait. I can be an animal too if I want to be---see-I have control of myself. State your understanding of what a human is. Deception can cause dysfunction, like it or not.

You are your own problem, I'm not. Human is a spiritual being with a system of values. It is not physical, the body is physical, you are spiritual. You are made up of human traits and animal traits. No one is exempt. My spiritual is the same as yours. (don't use highly evolved to loosely) Are you animal or man. There's no such thing as a human animal. Human is human, animal is animal. They are two states of mind. Take your pick.  And, so you say what you say. I say you're wrong. Why should I assume you're right, you could be dysfunctional and I could be deceived.  If you can do without it--then don't reply to my posts.

I don't believe you.

I request you not answer my posts. ( I know you're not going to do it.

Some humans.

I would completely agree.

I see problems.

Well there was shown to be some problem or another.

A spiritual being cannot be material. IE-love is the an emotion. The emotion is or can be caused by a chemical inducement. But, is it physical. You can picture material things of course, but can you see love within the brain. If you can, draw a pic and post it. If you can't then the result of the chemicals  the brain is something spiritual. Poof, there you are, you're invisible. All the other things of you are invisible also. The body is not you. Your bod doesn't tell me what kind of person you are---but those invisible things do.

Test- just did-the test, it is within your bod.

Test- Your attack on me could only come from those invisible animal traits.

It's your science against my guys, they're scientist too. maybe we found something your unfamiliar with. Maybe we found something that's new or has always been here and merely put it together. No, were' not from outer space. I'm a physicist I know about that.

There are time one must make assumptions. You've been around long enough to know that.

I'm not trying to be a theist or deist, and I'm not an atheist. I could be knowledgeable about something new, Maybe I'm JC and finally got back.

Yes, spirit does occupy one's bod--it's you.

I'm not looking for endorsements. I have plenty from my own guys. They agree, we're spiritual

Well they have evidence they just don't know what it is. They've been deceived haven't they. We're working on them too.

I'm not trying to be your boss. My way is to refrain from ruling over others. Seeking superiority comes from animal traits. You can call me son if you want, Old seer means just that. I may be older then you.  I won't go farther with that.

Question. Provide scientific answer of how first cell came to be? Describe how evolution gets passed the problem of irreducible complexity with thousands of encyclopedia’s full of pre programmed information. Show evidence.

Rational answer- That's why you freaks got bitchslapped down in Kitzmiller v. Dover, and why so many of the Discovery Institute's 'witnesses backed down when they faced prison sentences for trying to claim 'non science' as science.
ClIFFD 1 Rednuts 0

I already told you. I believe by faith that a highly intelligent being is the only logical answer for the creation of such a complex structure that because of irreducible complexity must have come fully functional. So the burden of proof is on the atheist side, who are so sure how it happened and apparently must have the evidence. So you either believe by faith or you have the scientific answer. Let’s look at your scientific answer. The evidence supports the theory of Evolution, and the theory of Abiogenesis is extremely well justified, and we are getting closer and closer to being able to actually replicate it, without any supernatural 'incantations' like the biblical myth and legend. That’s it. That’s your scientific answer for how the first cell came to be. You call that science? I particularly like the statement “we are getting closer to be being able to replicate it.” In other words you don’t know! We’re not any closer than we were when Darwin speculated that a cell was basically a glob of goo that gelled together with other cells. In fact, we are getting further away from it with every discovery of how extremely complex a cell is. The more we discover, the more we are sure it definitely wasn’t by way of evolution. This is also in line with what God (there’s that word you hate so much) says about the last days “but they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water” .I mean don’t insult our intelligence. Without even mentioning God we can come up with an intelligent design theory that better fits the evidence because evolution doesn’t work. Find another theory. They might have backed out in Kitzmiller Vs Dover. You don’t see me backing out, do ya? I’m made of a bit rougher stuff than you’d think. I was no angel before I got saved. I’d have eaten punks like you for breakfast. We have an admission that it’s by faith you believe how the first cell came to be. That’s why I chalked the 1 up on the right,

An ignorant Christian who’s going to show you how weak your atheist argument is! I see now the way the rational response unit deal with everything that’s put to them. Insults, distort the argument and edit everything that people ask of ye so ye can’t be seen by others how weak ye really are. It’s ok. Buddy. I understand ye have a lot of faith in ye’re religion as proved by the request for scientific proof and you’re complete inability to provide it. So, since faith covers a gap in knowledge, you believe by faith that the first cell of complex life spontaneously developed into a living thing. What a magical event. Life from non - life. At least God’s description in the very first 10 lines of Genesis provide is a more believable account. In the beginning, (time), God (a highly intelligent and personable being) created (came fully formed) the Heavens (space) and the earth (matter). So, in the very first 10 Words of Genesis you have your time, space continuum set out. We can study using science if His design has any signs of intelligent design and we can see is there evidence that life had to come fully formed or is it possible that it magically grew from non - life.
Look I understand that people like you, who spend a lot of time huddled over their computers get up to some very freaky things. (I’m not being judgmental. You just strike me as such a person. Just saying it like it is brother so we can go about getting you set free).Don’t let that discourage you before a holy God. He loves you. That’s why His sinless, spotless son had to take your judgment. The blood of Jesus Christ will wash all that sin away. It’s going to be a tough process but your admission of faith in your religion has been a monumental first step. Hang in there buddy. I understand the demons in you are tormenting you in your bed at night. Jesus Christ came to save that which was lost. He is the way, the truth and the life. Sorry, for the sermon there brother. I just have to get those demons in you agitated so they know who’s boss. We don’t want them thinking we’re afraid of their petty insults and attempts to ridicule us. They flee and hide from the blood. We’re looking for rational responses from the rational response squad not petty insults and ridiculous statements of faith in their religion. So, for our next lesson we’ll deal with the historicity of the Biblical account, the forensic science methods we can use to seek out truth and authenticity of historical documents and the evidence that the apostles were telling the truth. There’s that word the followers of evolutionism hate so much, evidence. I will keep that one chalked up. I think, rightfully earned it. I’m going to rightfully earn another few in the next lesson. You take care, now, brother Rednef.

CliffD 1 Rednuts 0

I find all over this forum. Not going to work. "If" you have a system of belief (I'm not saying you have) or beliefs why is everyone Else's inconsequential and your's isn't. Any one can make the same claim of anyone. What you folks have done here is--you say there's no God and you can't prove it, if you look to material sciences for truth then science is your God. Sorry, You still got one. I find it outstanding that Atheists are their own source of all understanding and knowledge. Read my other posts, you'll get my drift, (so to speak). Within the brain there is a person, the person is not the brain. The person is what the brain produces, what the brain produces is something invisible---it is you. Or maybe you're not a person. There-fore you cannot be the body. Human and animal is"the personage". The mentality and being/person of a dog etal is no different then ours, the body is different. Dog merely referees to a type of body. What is refereed to as "dog" also has a human side. Then, would not the "dog" also have a "Human" body. That would mean anything that has a body is human. Human then has to be something else. All bodies are made of the same materials. Is this not so.

According to science, there was no "first cell". By the time something we could identify as a "cell" appeared, there would have been billions of them, along with there immediate precursors, which would have been simpler 'organisms'.

There would have been no single first 'life'.

There would have been many pockets of 'pre-biotic' chemistry, where various forms of the simplest self-replicating molecules, probably RNA, formed. Once you get a minimal self-replicating system, some form of the basic evolutionary process can start to work, and away we go.

There have been no demonstrated examples of 'irreducible complexity'. It would require one to show that there was no viable path from an existing structure to the claimed example. And remember that evolution is blind, so the intermediate forms need not have functionality directly related to the 'final' structure. All they need is some minimally positive function. Mutation often produces a new form with a new or additional functionality.

Were the scientists there millions and millions and millions of years ago to record such an event? While that seems like a very fancy and educated answer it is nonetheless a theory. You have the same problem red nuts has. There is absolutely no evidence to support it. A fancy theory is a marvelous thing. However, we would like to see the science experiment and observable research that has created such a wonderful living thing. Until then, you have the same problem rednuts has. You just think that by using the old Dawkins method of baffling people with BS, that to the scientifically uneducated it seems like a very plausible answer. Scientific report of how to create such a living thing or declaration of faith in such a wonderfully contrived and well thought out theory is what we are asking for. You have just given the declaration of faith answer. You still jumped from non life to life, a little more cleverly but nonetheless that's what you did.

Amusing how hard theists try and fail to prove some flaw in science when putting even a fraction of the effort into their own beliefs would end their beliefs.

No I can't draw a picture of confusion. That's a point of thought for you to contemplate. I only brought it up as an example for you to understand where I'm coming from. If it's in your mind and can't produce a picture as a material item, then it's spiritual. Animals get confused, or beings in different bodies get confused.

You don't exist when yer ded. zip, gone , kopoot. zero. No it doesn't go to heaven. You are placing me in with theists of which I'm not, nor am I a deist. Heaven is a state of mind where within one is happy. That can be acquired during one's life. The trick is to remain happy most of the time.

Anger, hate and love are neutrals. They can be applied to anything, but yes, they are not material. Love and hate is two sides of one's person. We may possess lots of neutrals. we're still sorting that out. Everything could be a neutral until it's applied to something. See, we don't know everyhting.

I'm not asking or expecting you to believe what I say. I present it for your analysis. If you reject it, so be it.

You are evidence of what I'm stating. No test is really needed. You are a "you" are you not.

You say you are human. I say you are Human and animal. These are two states of "being". You are in possession of both are you not.

Ok, you are evidence that we are right. I present evidence of me as being right, and being the same as you then we know we are right about you.

Speculation is indeed a part of science. There are certain times one must speculate before an answer is found. If an answer is unknown at the beginning of a problem one can speculate at least to get a start. Speculation is of no value after a solution is found.

(Maybe we found something you're unfamiliar with) Not being a theist or deist, and not an atheist kinda puts us in the middle. We say you're both wrong. We don't question your science. Our material science has it's proofs the same as your material science, we don't differ there. .  We're saying your wrong on what a Human is. Human and animal can't be proven by material science as it may come under the mental sciences. Human and animal are two directions within ones mentality. IE- competition is derived from animal traits.

The human and animal are not your body, it is you. Now that you know all you need do is ---make a choice.

You can choose between one or the other, and if you can-we're right.

On your next post , if you do, you might release your attack dog. Be careful, I have one too.

While we may not have a need for evidence from the actual event as it was a one time event we do however require in real time a working testable sample of how your beautiful theory actually can be physically seen to work in a testable. observable, scientific (Yes we want science) experiment.
I have much respect for your religious beliefs. That is a beautiful creed of your religion. Again “I particularly like the statement “evidence is not what you can see or sample at the time” Is that a statement that’s true for just atheists or is it true for Christians also. You’re just after making our workload in having to provide evidence for the proof of a theistic God so much easier. I have looked at your religious creed and it fails on so many levels. We’ll put it through the probability , logic and science test later on and show how much of a ridiculous statement of faith it really is. For the time being I’m not interested in it. What’s interesting to note is the Christian says we want to see your scientific proof of how to start life from non – life and the follower of evolutionism says “Oh, we don’t need physical evidence at a physical point in time. We have a beautiful theory” So do we. What ye fail to understand is the born again Christian has had a physical encounter with the living, holy God. If He exists, then the Bible is true and we can prove it to be so. His creation will have His fingerprints all over it. Because we know 100% that there is a God and He is the holy God of the Bible, we can prove it. We can say evolution must be a false religion, which the Bible says will abound in these last days before Christ returns. We are then in the enlightened position of being able to ask the deluded atheists for evidence of the first cell magically developing in to life and surprise, surprise we get told. “ Em, we actually haven’t got it but we have a beautiful theory on how it works, and you don’t need physical evidence anymore”. We’re going to shine a little light into the corridor’s of atheism. You watch as I put Rednuts through the ringer over the next few weeks to see how weak your faith really is. I don’t need your declaration of faith in evolutionism. I can pull the atheist theory apart on a hundred different levels and prove that it is indeed spawned by the devil himself and is a direct attack on the holy throne on God to lead the deluded masses to Hell. We can provide evidence or perhaps it’s not needed anymore, is it? You watch ol’ red nuts squirm over the next few weeks and retaliate with childish name calling and no evidence. Thanks for the beautiful creed and statement of faith. We would however, like to see the evidence which is what you're get from us.

Hi, welcome to the forum, Rachel.

No, not to me.

You live in the midwestern U.S., told everyone you're atheist, and no one judged you for it? You are living in a very remarkable little town then. As far as I know, most people will treat you completely differently everywhere else in the midwest. I've heard plenty of stories of people essentially being exiled by their family and community.   

I have nothing against that.

How does communism = atheism? By a broad definition of religion, communism IS a religion, idealistic communism at least.

I try not to play the who killed more people game at all, because it's very difficult to show causation.

Oh, so you agree with us then?

Yes, we know that.

If that's the case, I recommend starting a new thread instead.

I actually agree with you on most of these as well. For the lawsuits against schools, it would depend on what the lawsuit was about. For the insults, I don't see anything wrong with using humor after they've shown that they are impervious to reason.

Ah, well then, aren't you just assuming benign religions as part of your argument? We can't possibly disagree.

We have an animal side and a human side. People mistakenly think their whole being to be human. The people of the world are civilized. Civilization exists out of the animal side. Force and counter force, seeking position and status above others, domination of others, etc are all extracted from one's animal side. People are under the impression that civilization is the answer to the worlds problem. But, civilization "is" the problem. No matter how an animal can be arranged the same result will occur. The animal cannot be fixed. For civilization to exist it must regulate  by force of law and police how much of animal is acceptable. . In other words, cage what brings about effects that are detrimental to the workings of the State. In civilization the animal rules. That's why history repeats itself, animal venture will always produce the same result. The idea that civilization will solve the problems is a deception by those who run it, and they also are ignorant of the animal situation. Civilization is when a few rule the many.

   Now, if you chain the animal to a tree and walk away, what do you have left, poooof, you're what a Christin is ---"supposed"---- to be. So now you can see that those who claim Christianity---are not. Throw the God idea out, it's not needed. But, if you want to rule over another then you want to be God over them. Just rule yourself and you'll have less problems. Lemme see now, what was that what one of our team pointed out. One who enslaves others becomes a slave to driving slaves, such a man has no peace. 

I’ve tried to post this twice and both times I got no error messages but it also never showed up.  Hopefully this one makes it through the ether. 

Hi Butter!  Thank you for responding.  I probably sounded really argumentative, so I’m happy you engaged anyway.  I really just wanted to talk about it.  J

Quote:

No one cares.  Not a single person has ever cared that I'm an atheist.

You live in the midwestern U.S., told everyone you're atheist, and no one judged you for it? You are living in a very remarkable little town then. As far as I know, most people will treat you completely differently everywhere else in the midwest. I've heard plenty of stories of people essentially being exiled by their family and community.   

Dead.  Serious.  No one.  Not only that but, before I was enlightened by libertarianism, I worked in republican politics.  No one cared.  I was open and honest and they had questions, but no one cared about it.  No one made me feel any differently for it.  Sure, I assume it’s possible someone might have been *gasp* faking it!  Maybe there was someone who thought I was an evil sinner and was going to hell.  Big fucking deal.  How do their thoughts affect me?  It’s their actions I’m worried about and they never acted on any ill will that I could see.  In fact, I was like a science experiment to them.  They wanted to know what I thought about death and morals and all that.  It was actually just a bunch of talking.  No judgments.  In fact, I can't think of a single time I've ever felt judged by a religious person, Christian or otherwise.  Maybe people haven't had my good fortune in this, but I find it hard to believe that I could be in the belly of the beast (republican politics) for almost TEN YEARS and never experience what's supposed to be the biggest and most obvious evidence of why Christianity needs to be stopped or curtailed--intolerance, judgmentalism and bigotry.  

And, I’ve known way more judgmental atheists than I have judgmental religious people.  Hand to “God” (Oh, the irony!).  I’ve been spit on once and shoved to the ground once by atheists.  Not once have I ever had that happen to me at the hand of a religious person.  Not when debating gay marriage, abortion or anything else.  Both of the perpetrators were men.  Two atheist men shoving a woman to the ground or spitting on her for her “conservative” beliefs.  I wasn’t even at a protest!  I don’t even protest about shit!  These were “friends” of mine who accidentally found out I didn’t believe the exact same things they did.  …I know…I need better friends.  Yet, somehow, I’ve told, like, dozens and dozens of theists that I’m a disbeliever and they do things like give me bibles.  I’m going to go out on a limb here and say I’d much rather get bibles than be spit on and shoved.  Sure, the plural of anecdotes is not data, but I’d take my chances disagreeing with a group of religious people in the US over a group of atheists any day.      

What’s with the dogma of the atheist movement?  If I need a group to make me feel better about not belonging to a group then…it’s just kinda sad, you know?

Quote:

communism has killed waaaaay more people in a much shorter amount of time.  So atheism sure hasn't helped anyone there.

How does communism = atheism? By a broad definition of religion, communism IS a religion, idealistic communism at least.

I try not to play the who killed more people game at all, because it's very difficult to show causation.

I totally agree.  I’ve always said that when it comes to ideology, they are all equal, religious or otherwise.  Since communism is an anti-theistic political ideology, I thought it relevant to mention that this atheistic ideology was responsible for far more horrible things in a short period of time than the ideology that we all disbelieve, and some of us disbelieve aggressively.  The point is that atheism doesn’t protect people from irrationality or the desire to violate another’s rights.  So, if that’s true, what’s the benefit of working towards a totally atheistic society?  I know what I think about that question.  I’d rather know the truth than believe a lie.  But, people who tend to hate religion, as opposed to just being non-believers, seem to think that religious people are somehow defective.  Communism disproves that the absence of religion is an automatic good. 

Quote:

(Which is one of the reasons we should get rid of it

Oh, so you agree with us then?

I believe there is no God.  I don't care to subscribe to a set of beliefs as a requirement to belong to a group.  So, yes.  I agree there is no God and people should stop believing in God.  Whether that means I agree with the point of this site or a group of atheists with a set of proscribed beliefs, I don't care.  

The issue is not whether religion should be believed or not.  The issue is how do we address believers and what level of respect we show others, especially since a lot of our complaints have to do with them treating us exactly as we are now treating them.

Quote:

And, I'm honestly curious.  I'm not trolling.

If that's the case, I recommend starting a new thread instead.

Will do.  Where?  There are a billion places to pick from here and some are years old and hundreds of pages long.  I didn’t want my comment to get lost because I really, really want to know why this happens.  I thought Atheist vs. Theist seemed pretty relevant, and it was conveniently located at the top of the list, so I squatted here.  J 

Quote:

Please tell me why filing lawsuits against school systems and wanting to remove "in God we trust" from money is a good use of time and resources.  Or why insulting religious people is a useful way to debate, instead of just laying out the logical framework with respect and manners?

I actually agree with you on most of these as well. For the lawsuits against schools, it would depend on what the lawsuit was about. For the insults, I don't see anything wrong with using humor after they've shown that they are impervious to reason.

Humor is one thing, but what’s funny about just insulting people?  As an atheist am I also supposed to have big laugh when I tell children Santa doesn’t exist?  I’ve yet to see actual humor employed in the debate between theists and atheists.  It’s just paranoid name calling and ridicule.  Mean spirited and totally counter-productive.      

What lawsuits against schools were worth the time in your opinion?  I played sports at my public school.  Before each game we said what I think is referred to as the Lord’s Prayer--the Our Father thingy.  Is that something you’d have a problem with? At the time I distinctly remember not giving a shit.  It didn’t make me Christian.  Am I supposed to engage in the magical thinking that somehow I’ve been violated because I said a religious phrase as a ritualistic bonding activity before a sporting event?  I also had this thing where I had to pull up both batting gloves twice right before I stepped in the batters box.  Does that ritual mean anything?  We all put our hands in a pile at the end of a game and chanted.  Did that mean anything?  

If it’s imaginary then how can it hurt me in any way and why should I be offended? Because it’s “irrational” is the only explanation I ever get from other atheists.  So what?  Everyone is irrational in some way.  What’s the point in getting pissed off about this brand of irrationality when they aren't threatening?  That's what I'm trying to get at here.  What's so threatening or violating about them?      

Quote:

This isn't about the insane death cult of fundamentalist Islam so no changing subjects.  This is about cute old bingo playing grandmas and dorky teenagers who want to have a moment of silence at lunch in high school.  

Ah, well then, aren't you just assuming benign religions as part of your argument? We can't possibly disagree.

Well, yeah.  I tend to avoid just lumping everything together.   If the atheists want to start targeting really dangerous theists then I hope they go after Muslims the way they’ve been going after Christians for years.   If you treat all religions the same isn’t that like treating all political ideologies the same or all mental illnesses the same?  Isn’t it the point that you look at substance and not just have a knee jerk reaction?  Explain to me who the dangerous Christians are and why I should fear them to the point of demanding their silence and subjugation the way they supposedly demand mine.  I think that’s a fair question.

That’s really my issue.  What’s so dangerous about Christians that I need to curtail their rights in order to protect mine? 

While I’ve appreciated the fact you responded, you haven’t actually said anything.  Seriously.  Explain to me why Christians are supposed to be feared, ridiculed and/or suppressed.  What’s so bad about someone being Christian and telling me about it or wanting to celebrate it?  How does that make me unable to be an atheist?  

 butterbattle the link above is broken. 

*** EDIT *** I fixed it.