Is that the same George Washington who added "So help me God" to his oath of office at his first inauguration?

You are arguing from the falacy of "We have always done it this way".

Even if, for pretend's sake, I baught your claim that Washinton believed in the Christian God, he would no more approve of a cross on the flag than you would a Star of David.

Look at the Constitution because that was the LAW that they wrote. When you look at it in several places it warns us not to mix government and religion.

The First Amendment says that government is neither for or against religion. Their intent was to prevent a monopoly and in laymens terms means, "We wont come after you, but on these issues do it on your own time with your own money"

"No Religious Test" does not force you to vote for an atheist. But it cannot prevent a Muslim(we now have one as senator) from running and getting ellected. He swore in on a Quran once owned by Thomas Jefferson BTW, not in the mass cerimony, but in his private cerimony.

Read the oath of office in the Constitution. There is no mention of Jesus or Allah or Yahwey or Vishnu. The "so help me God|" is strictly voluntary and NOT MANDITORY!

George Washington was a deist, not a Christian. He valued YOUR RIGHT and MY RIGHT to be free from government coiersion on issues of religion.

So does it suprise me that he did that? No, but you are confusing a voluntary act as being Constitutionally manditory.

My point is weither you want to accept it or not, there is nothing in the Constitution stopping a Jew or Muslim or atheist from partisipating in our highest offices. Certainly the public is not obligated to vote for anyone based on label. But I am tired of the false belief popularly sold that only Christians can run for office or should hold office.

If a Muslim citizen or Jewish Citizen or Atheist citizen apply for the legal documents to run for Govorner or City Council or even President, if those running get enough votes then they won the right to hold that office.

You are trying to falsely make the Constitution solely for "Christian use only and everyone else must take a back seat and not compete"

No one here wants to exclude Christians from political competition. What we are fighting against is the attitude that a mere label should prevent  a citizen from considering another.

The point is you dont own the rights to claim that OUR laws come strictly from YOUR holy book while all other people take a back seat to you.

We wont opress you via government force. But we are damned sure tired of being told that since we dont belong to your club that we are not allowed to compete.

There is only one club I see. The human race. There is only one nation which has the strongest Constitution to protect me from facism and theocracy.

You mistake "neutral government" with opression.  If you and I rented an apartment together. You would have your room, I would have mine. Things like the kitchen and living room would be common ground. You'd have the right to decorate your room the way you want, but how reasonable would you be if you didnt consider me in OUR common ground.

Figure of speech, 

Here's a collection of quotes that pretty much destroys the "America is a Christian nation" argument.

Most important to the law of the land are the 1st amendment (not cited here except obliquely through a Jeffersonian quote) and the Treaty of Tripoli coupled with the Supremacy Clause.  It's an airtight case assuring separation of church and state.

"God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there will never be any liberal science in the world."

George Washington:

"Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by the difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be depreciated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society." -- letter to Edward Newenham, 1792

Benjamin Franklin:

"In the affairs of the world, men are saved, not by faith, but by the lack of it."

Thomas Jefferson:

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." - letter to Wm. Bradford, April 1, 1774

"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."

“Christianity is the most perverted system ever shone to man.”

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."

“Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.”

"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,--as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,--and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mohammedan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever interrupt the harmony existing between the two countries."

SUPREMACY CLAUSE: The supremacy clause is Clause 2 in Article VI of the United States Constitution. It establishes the Constitution, Federal Statutes, and U.S. treaties as "the supreme law of the land." [emphasis mine] The Constitution is the highest form of law in the American legal system. State judges are required to uphold it, even if state laws or Constitutions conflict with it.

Treaties must comply with the Constitution. However, the treatymaking power of the U.S. Government is broader than the law making power of Congress. The Supreme Court ruled in Missouri v. Holland (1920) that pursuant to a treaty with Britain, the United States could regulate the hunting of migratory birds, even though Congress had no independent authority to pass such legislation.

Article VI, Clause 2: "This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be Supreme Law of the land; and the Judges in every state shall be bound thereby, any thing in the Constitution or Laws of any state to the contrary notwithstanding."

Have you ever read the Constitution? Go read the oath of office. "So Help Me God" IS NOT WRITTEN IN THE OATH! It is strictly voluntary, not manditory.

"No Religious Test" is also written in the Constitution. 

The Declaration of Independance is not LAW, it was a letter to the King of England and was written decades before the Constitution wich IS law.

Did it ever occure to you in that time period between the Declaration and the Constitution, that back and forth debates as to how "God" should be reperesented took place? Did it ever occure to you with that diverse group of people, when it finally came down to writing the actuall LAW wich is the Constitition, they chose not to mention any God or god because there would have been no fair way to do so because everyone was so different in their thinking.

They made the best law they could in the First Amendment, which has been hijacked to mean, "We can gang tag goverment property with OUR sectarian logo and pretend that we are not doing that".

What the First Amendment really says is, "On the issues mention here, we will not come after you nor will we favor or aid you, do it on your own time with your own money".

What you really should say that I would agree with is, "We have always had a Christian majority", but that doesnt mean that a Muslim or Jew or atheist cant run for office. Certainly we are not garunteed votes, but if we manage to get enough votes then we can be president. If a president wants to seat a Buddhist born in America on the Supreme Court, they can.

This is what most Christians dont want to hear. The lie being sold to both Christians and minorites outside the Christian label is that unless you swear to Jesus, you can never be president.

BULL! Jefferson denied the virgin birth and death of Jesus and classed the fable in the same catigory of Minerva being born out of the brian of Jupiter. He was not a Christian and he was a president.

"Christian beginings" only refures to culture, not government law and the LAW of the Constitution is there to be used by every citizen and lawyers and judges and Supreme Court judges dont have to be Christians to interpret it. 

An appeal to authority? Where? When one uses quotes from a historical figure in an attempt to determine the figures beliefs it is not an appeal to authority. It is a legitimate method of attempting to understand the persons views. An appeal to authority would be to state without supporting evidence that George Washington believed such and such because 'scholar/expert' says so. Its important that if you are going to attempt to call people out for using fallacious reasoning you understand the actual fallacies you accuse them of using.

Then what kind of nation are we?

You've taken all these quotes out of context.   To address the first two, the Bible also says to submit yourself to authority.  It doesn't say that it's impossible for a very rich person to enter heaven, it says that it's very hard to let go of their wealth if they are bent on loving their wealth and money.  Remember, it says that you can't serve two masters, and in the real world, this is true.  The Bible says, judge not, that you not be judged, to say that you shouldn't walk around condemning people.  It does, however, suggest that there needs to be authority in order to make decisions.

That's a cool quote and all, but I don't really feel like carrying it around with me on the off chance that some idiot will try and tell me that America is a Christian nation.

 So instead, what I'll do is this. The next time someone tells me that the U.S. is a Christian nation, or was founded by Christians, or on Christian ideals, I will simply respond as usual: by laughing heartily.

Still missing the point which I have made time after time.

No one is suggeting anyone be forced to vote for someone they dont want to. I am talking about public attude and their lack of knowlege.

Right you do vote for the person who you have something in common with. BUT, the founders didnt want that "common" ground to be based on the issue of religion, "No Religious Test".

What they wanted for you to do when you voted is to stick to finding overlap on issues OTHER than religion.

It is possible, but most of society doesnt think so.

I demonstrate time after time in post after post that If I can do it, they can too. I'll do it again here too.

!. I have voted in every ellection since I was 18. All the people I voted for were Christians. If I am willing to look beyond that and vote on issues, they can too.

My issues are privacy rights, gun ownership(within reason) no stockpiling. I am anit-death penalty, for low taxes. I am for corperate responsibility and wish the ceo's would cut some of their profits and put it back into their employees care. I think life should be afordable to everyone.

I like the idea of charity, but I think just like everything else is worse taken care of in the hands of a burocrate. I believe that my goverment shouldnt interfere in my life.

I am an NFL FAN, I like everything from jazz to Metallica, to 80ds music. I like shows like A-Team, Charle's Angels and SVU.

I am quite sure there are plenty of Christians outside the issue of label that would agree with me or find common ground on some of these things.

It is a lie that Christians cant leave it at the door. When I vote, I vote for the person who stays out of my beliefs and out of my wallet and doesnt want pollitically correct laws. 

[/fundy advocacy]

I don't think you'll ever beat them in a quote war because they know how to twist popular words to new meaning.
"The founding fathers wanted us to be free."

Sources?

According to that site he did say:

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. "

Oh goody, here we go again, the atheists have no values, morals, ethics, etc. 

The problem with having religion and politics meshed is that people lose rights based on the beliefs of others.  Of course that's fine and dandy with those who are squashing the rights.  It's not fine and dandy with me.

Of course atheists have values, morals, ethics.  I never said they didn't.  I just said that an atheist's values/morals/ethics probably aren't the same as a Christian's values/morals/ethics.

How does that equate to Washinton wanting OUR laws ripped from the Bible.

Again, what makes you think it is more than his personal opinion? There is a big differance between someone's personal opinion and the Constitution. Please tell me where you find the word "Jesus" or "Christian" in the Constitution?

HIS God was the god of nature and he was a deist, not a Christian. 

He in no way wanted any law ripped out of the Bible. Just like the rest of the founders they all understood that your religion was up to you, not them. It was not something they wanted goverment playing favorites to.

Him saying that only amounts to his opinion which is a seperate issue of HOW the Constitution is to be followed. The Constitution was to be interpreted with reason, not rose colored dogma. 

Perhaps if you read it, you would see that is says the second sentence is false, not the first.

And no where did I say that the link I offered proves anything.  I even stated that I didn't have time to read the farwell address. 

At least I attached a source, unlike some other people. 

And as I've already said countless times on this thread, it doesn't matter whether Washington was a Christian, deist or buddhist.  The founding fathers intent was making our government secular and not Christian. 

I think that if Dave had said "Next time some idiot says America was founded as a Christian nation ...", I'd have no issue with this post whatsoever.  However the title of the thread, as it stands is patently false.  I mean, a brief survey of religious affiliations of the fifty-five delegates to the Continental Congress which approved the Declaration of Independence breaks down like this:

28 Episcopalians, 7 Congregationalists, 3 Catholics, 2 Lutherans, 2 Dutch Reformed, 2 Methodists.  Three others professed Deism of some sort.  Additionally, at least 18 were Freemasons, whose tenets also aknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being.  One (Benjamin Franklin) never professed any religious belief, but was among the Freemasons.  So 44 out of 55 (80%) delegates professed Christianity, 48 out of 55 (87%) professed theism, the beliefs of 7 (13%) aren't verifiable (including the mysterious Button Gwinnett of Georgia, whose signature on the Declaration is very nearly the only evidence of his existence).

I couldn't find statistics for the religious affiliation fo signers of the Constitution, but would suspect that the percentages would be very similar.

 Ever wonder why

"In God We Trust"

is on our currency?

You atheists better stop now. Its been a lost cause from the beginning. Theism has been here since the dawn of civilization, and it will be here when you are dust. God exists, and He has always crushed the opposition.

And it was only on a few coins then - only added to all the money in the 1950's (under McCarthyism.)

Indeed not.  Nor did I, to complete the analogy, ever suggest that the United States was founded as a Christian nation.  In fact, even if I did not state so outright, it is clearly implied in my post that I believe the opposite to be true, that the United States was founded as a nation where all religious beliefs, or non-beliefs would all be tolerated.

It is common knowledge, however, that belief informs our actions.  Therefore, it is not unreasonable to find, that since the majority of the founders of the nation were Christian, Christian mores, attitudes and beliefs were deeply ingrained in the fabric  of the documents establishing the United States.

Before addressing neptewn's questions, I must first make a correction.  The breakdown of founding fathers by religious denomination is those in attendance at the Constitutional Convention, not the Continental Congress which passed the Declaration of Independence.  I was in hurry when I posted, and inadvertenly flip flopped the information.  Sorry.

First, show me anyplace wher I've advocated slavery.

Second, yes, majority rules, for better or for worse, is the way most representative governments and democracies operate.

Third.  Only fourteen of the 55 delegates to the convention had ever owned slaves, two of whom, George Washington (he of the quote that started this thread), and Benjamin Franklin (the nearest thing to an agnostic or atheist attending the Convention) freed theirs.  Neither 12 nor 14 is nearly a majority of 55.  Slavery survived the Convention as a hard fought compromise.  Southern states threatened to withhold ratification of the document if slavery was limited in any way.  If ratification was withheld by it would have caused the slow death of the United States under the Articles of Confederation.  It was the case of a a vocal minority imposing an injustice on the majority.

I never claimed that the Bible was the only influence on the framers of the Constitution.  Again, you're putting words in my mouth.  The influence of other thinkers, including those of the Enlightenment are clearly in evidence in the ideas and wording of the document.

What were they afraid of?  Well let's see.  I don't think you'll disagree that a good many, please notice I didn't say majority, but a good many folks fled their native lands for America to escape religious persecution.  American experience with government came from the British tradition.  If we  briefly examine the relationship of the British government and  religion, perhaps we can determine what firghtened these guys.

 In the 1530's, Henry VIII established the Crown as the Supreme Head of the Church in England, and splitting with Roman Catholicism.  Catholics quickly became very unpopular with the government, to the point that Catholics were widely persecuted and executed for their religious beliefs (in fact, full political freedom was not restored to English Catholics until the 1830's).  In fact, the Church of England soon splintered into various factions, with the dominant faction persecuting the smaller ones (that'd be your Puritans, who were more Calvinistic then the main, or High Church folks) and restricting their political rights as well.  If you examine the denominational breakdown af attendees at the Constitutional Convention, you'll notice that, of those Christians not affiliated witht he Church of England, the majority were members of Calvinist sects. 

The founding fathers had witnessed firsthand the effects of a state religion on civil rights in England, and wished to avoid the same mess, in which case they succeeded admirably. 

My source for the "so help me God" thing is the Architect of the Capitol website at www.aoc.gov.

The title of this thread has nothing to do with the United States being a Christian Nation, the claim was that the United States was not established by Christians which I have demonstrated to be a false statement.

By the way, your links are to George Washington's First Inaugural Address, not to anyhting concerned with the oath of office.

No problem.  No offense.  It may have just been my thin skin.  In retrospect, I kinda see the point you were making there, and think I addressed it.

I think we're confusing terms here.  If we speak of ideology of government, we speak in terms of secularists versus theocrats.  If we speak of individual religious beliefs, we talk about denominations.  Hence I am a Catholic secularist, that is a member of the Catholic faith who thinks that church and state should be separate.  The fact that I believe Church and State should be separate does not change my religious view.  I remain a Catholic.

So why does god allow atheists to exist? Maybe because believers refuse to see the obvious and s(he) is using atheists to make them think clearly about some of their beliefs? 

Saying Bush isn't a Christian is another instance of the NO True Scotsman Fallacy.