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Christianity and Nazism

Posted on: June 26, 2007 - 11:57pm
Cpt_pineapple
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Christianity and Nazism

A discussion from another thread. Moved here to not crowd the other thread.

[edit:forgot to link to it]
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/the_rational_response_squad_radio_show/general_conversation_introductions_and_humor/8304

 

Cpt_pineapple wrote:
BenfromCanada wrote:
Cpt_pineapple wrote:

Unless you can show me concentration camps were Christians execute gays in gas chambers, then I don't think you should compare Christians to Nazis.

Auschwitz. Need more? OK. Sobibor. Need a third? Jasenovac. You require more? Um...fuck it, here's a list. Satisfied? [In case you didn't catch my drift, the Nazis were, in fact, christians, and did, in fact, ty to exterminate homosexuals.]

 

Several of high ranking memebers of Hitler's cabinet were atheist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldur_von_Schirach

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Axmann

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Bormann

 

 

Quote:

Cpt_pineapple wrote:
And I would compare the Muslim extremist states as facists. All members of the Nazi party supported Hitler. Not all Muslims support the extremist facist states.
Not all Nazis supported Hitler, as is shown by the assasination attempt by a fellow Nazi, Claus von Stauffenberg.

 

Compare the number of Muslims that denounce Muslim extremism to the number of Nazis that denounced Nazism.

 

Quote:

Cpt_pineapple wrote:
It's like saying all communist states are like Stalin's Soviet Russia. Stalin's regime was a form of commuism. Hitler's Nazi party was a form of fascisim.
Yes. And a form of fascism that is comparable to christianity in many ways.

 

No it's not. We would have terrorist attacks left right and centre if Christians were facist

 

Quote:

Cpt_pineapple wrote:
RickRebel wrote:


But isn't God sending everyone who isn't a true Ary.. err...Christian to the biggest furnace ever invented?

 

I'm not Christian. But that doesn't mean the I think Christians are Nazis.

I think he was calling god a nazi there.

 

I thought he was refering to Chrisitans.

 

 

 

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Posted on: June 27, 2007 - 12:06am #1
Cpt_pineapple
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BenfromCanada

BenfromCanada wrote:
Cpt_pineapple wrote:

 

Several of high ranking memebers of Hitler's cabinet were atheist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldur_von_Schirach

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Axmann

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Bormann

Of them, only Bormann was outspoken about his atheism. Regardless, the majority were christian, Hitler himself was christian who was doing God's work, and the Nazis actively supported a particular brand of christianity.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Christianity

 

My point was if Hitler wanted to promote this Christianity, then why would he have let outspoken atheists in his ranks? 

 

Quote:
 

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

Compare the number of Muslims that denounce Muslim extremism to the number of Nazis that denounced Nazism.

There are 3 reasons that this isn't applicable. Nazis only lived in Germany, where they could have been executed for such "anti-German" sentiment, and many muslims live in free societies where they can speak out against places like Iran. Nazism was a singular philosophy, whereas Islam has many sects. Shiite muslims are much more likely to attack Sunni regimes like Saudi Arabia, whereas Sunnis are much more likely to attack Shiite governments like Iran, and neither would commit heresy by doing so. Lastly, the Nazi party existed for 25 years, and was only really a force for 15. Militant Islam has been around for much longer than 25 years, and thus we've had a longer amount of time to see how bad it truly is.

 My point was that of these Muslims how many are blowing themselfs up?

 

I'll give you a hint: Not a lot. 

 There are many refuges that come from Iran and Saudia Arabia to escape the oppression. Of course people fled Nazi Germany too. But they did that because they did not support the Nazis. Like the Muslims fled because they do not support the regime.

 

Quote:

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

No it's not. We would have terrorist attacks left right and centre if Christians were facist

How does that follow?

EDIT: Regardless, I said christians are comparable to Nazis in many ways, not that christians ARE nazis.

 

I am saying that is a false comparision.

 

Quote:
 

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

I thought he was refering to Chrisitans.

It was a joke about God being Hitler, so I guess you can possibly get that from it, by extension.

The God of the bible may have killed many people, but that does not mean his followers are following the same path. 


Posted on: June 27, 2007 - 12:34am #2
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Fix quotes plz. Hard to

Fix quotes plz. Hard to read.


Posted on: June 27, 2007 - 12:39am #3
Cpt_pineapple
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BenfromCanada wrote: Fix

BenfromCanada wrote:
Fix quotes plz. Hard to read.

 

Okay, give me a sec. The second post should be fine. I just quoted you statement and responded.


When I try to edit the OP, it comes out in HTML code and I'm having a hard time fixing it.


Posted on: June 27, 2007 - 12:56am #4
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This article or section is

This article or section is missing citations and/or footnotes.

This article or section contains insufficiently sourced phrases. Using inline citations helps guard against copyright violations and factual inaccuracies. You may improve the article or discuss this issue on its talk page. Help on using footnotes is available. This article has been tagged since December 2006.

"A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven." -- former Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chretien


Posted on: June 27, 2007 - 1:17am #5
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stillmatic wrote:

stillmatic wrote:
This article or section is missing citations and/or footnotes.

This article or section contains insufficiently sourced phrases. Using inline citations helps guard against copyright violations and factual inaccuracies. You may improve the article or discuss this issue on its talk page. Help on using footnotes is available. This article has been tagged since December 2006.

 

????

[edit: And BTW, Ben conceded that at least Bormann was atheist]

 


Posted on: June 27, 2007 - 1:14am #6
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Okay, fuck it. I can't seem

Okay, fuck it. I can't seem to fix the quotes. Go to the original thread to see the quotes.


Posted on: July 4, 2007 - 1:32am #7
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This video covers the whole

This video covers the whole topic, where it came from and all that:



Edit: WHOOPS! That other video was supposed to go elsewhere. The above video has been corrected.


Posted on: June 27, 2007 - 12:44pm #8
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It just bugs me that their

It just bugs me that their is no source or citations to that claim.

In my opinion we will never know if Hitler was an actual believer or someone how was using Christian dogma and belief to his own ends. He was definately raised as a Catholic and read the teachings of Martin Luther in "The Jews and their Lies".

I don't know if it matters what his personal beliefs were because he preyed on the religious beliefs of millions of Germans to get them to fall into line with his villianization of the Jews.

"A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven." -- former Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chretien


Posted on: June 27, 2007 - 1:23pm #9
Cpt_pineapple
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I think Inspectormustard's

I think Inspectormustard's post quantum tunneled to this thread. The video is about computer science. 

 

stillmatic wrote:

It just bugs me that their is no source or citations to that claim.

In my opinion we will never know if Hitler was an actual believer or someone how was using Christian dogma and belief to his own ends. He was definately raised as a Catholic and read the teachings of Martin Luther in "The Jews and their Lies".

I don't know if it matters what his personal beliefs were because he preyed on the religious beliefs of millions of Germans to get them to fall into line with his villianization of the Jews.

 

I'm not talking about Hitler. I'm talking about high ranking members of the Nazi party.

 

In the other thread Ben said that the Nazis were Christian. I countered by listing atheist Nazi officals.  


Posted on: June 27, 2007 - 2:24pm #10
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In that other thread did you

In that other thread did you provide support for these Nazi officials being Atheist?  I'm not seeing it in this thread.  You did link to some wiki pages that didn't provide any evidence of these people being Atheist.


Posted on: June 27, 2007 - 4:51pm #11
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Cpt_pineapple wrote: My

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

My point was if Hitler wanted to promote this Christianity, then why would he have let outspoken atheists in his ranks?

Because they were attracted to the main concepts of his ideology.

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

My point was that of these Muslims how many are blowing themselfs up?

 

I'll give you a hint: Not a lot.

There are many refuges that come from Iran and Saudia Arabia to escape the oppression. Of course people fled Nazi Germany too. But they did that because they did not support the Nazis. Like the Muslims fled because they do not support the regime.

...did that actually refute anything I said? I don't think it even came close.

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

I am saying that is a false comparision.

So, how would it follow that christians would use terrorist tactics if they were comparable to Nazis? And how is it a false comparison?

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

The God of the bible may have killed many people, but that does not mean his followers are following the same path.

Who were the biggest supporters of the Iraq war? Who still are the biggest supporters of this war?

inspectormustard wrote:

This video covers the whole topic, where it came from and all that:

...it's about computer science.

stillmatic wrote:

It just bugs me that their is no source or citations to that claim.

In my opinion we will never know if Hitler was an actual believer or someone how was using Christian dogma and belief to his own ends. He was definately raised as a Catholic and read the teachings of Martin Luther in "The Jews and their Lies".

I don't know if it matters what his personal beliefs were because he preyed on the religious beliefs of millions of Germans to get them to fall into line with his villianization of the Jews.

I tend to agree with him being christian, as he publicly professed it. Regardless, he'd have had less support without this profession, so my point still stands that christianity and Nazism were linked.

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

I'm not talking about Hitler. I'm talking about high ranking members of the Nazi party.

 

In the other thread Ben said that the Nazis were Christian. I countered by listing atheist Nazi officals.

I was asleep at the wheel when I accepted those. Bormann was apparently an outspoken atheist, according to the wiki, but wikipedia isn't exactly a top notch source. The other articles only mention, at the bottom, that the subject of the article was a German atheist. You have to do better. Even so, one atheist amongst a bunch of christians doesn't make the organization not christian. The British Nationalist Party is known as a racist and anti-semitic organization, but it let in a Jew. Is it now suddenly not racist or anti-semitic?

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Posted on: June 27, 2007 - 5:49pm #12
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Cpt_pineapple wrote: The

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

The God of the bible may have killed many people, but that does not mean his followers are following the same path.

the nazi discussion aside, i think the inquisition alone proves this statement false. 

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Posted on: June 27, 2007 - 6:02pm #13
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BenfromCanada

BenfromCanada wrote:
Cpt_pineapple wrote:

My point was if Hitler wanted to promote this Christianity, then why would he have let outspoken atheists in his ranks?

Because they were attracted to the main concepts of his ideology.

 

  My point was that you can be anti-semitic to the point of Nazism without being Christian 

 

 

 

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

My point was that of these Muslims how many are blowing themselfs up?

 

I'll give you a hint: Not a lot.

There are many refuges that come from Iran and Saudia Arabia to escape the oppression. Of course people fled Nazi Germany too. But they did that because they did not support the Nazis. Like the Muslims fled because they do not support the regime.

...did that actually refute anything I said? I don't think it even came close.

What are you saying then?

 

Quote:
 

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

I am saying that is a false comparision.

So, how would it follow that christians would use terrorist tactics if they were comparable to Nazis? And how is it a false comparison?

Nazis acted on their hatred towards the Jews, the mentally ill, etc. That is Nazis hated them so much they tried to kill them. 

Let me give you an example. I hate Paris Hilton. This doesn't then follow, that I want her put in a concentration camp and then executed. If I did hold those thoughts than that would be comparable to Nazism. If I don't hold those thoughts, then I don't hate her like the Nazis hated Jews.

 

So my point is that the Nazis ACT on their hatred.  

 

 

Quote:

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

The God of the bible may have killed many people, but that does not mean his followers are following the same path.

Who were the biggest supporters of the Iraq war? Who still are the biggest supporters of this war?

 ....Here's the catch. The majority of Americans do not support the war. The majority are Christian. If all Christians supported the war, then it would rank much higher on the polls.

 

Quote:
 

inspectormustard wrote:

This video covers the whole topic, where it came from and all that:

...it's about computer science.

Yeah, I guess he meant to post that in one of my other threads.

Quote:
 

stillmatic wrote:

It just bugs me that their is no source or citations to that claim.

In my opinion we will never know if Hitler was an actual believer or someone how was using Christian dogma and belief to his own ends. He was definately raised as a Catholic and read the teachings of Martin Luther in "The Jews and their Lies".

I don't know if it matters what his personal beliefs were because he preyed on the religious beliefs of millions of Germans to get them to fall into line with his villianization of the Jews.

I tend to agree with him being christian, as he publicly professed it. Regardless, he'd have had less support without this profession, so my point still stands that christianity and Nazism were linked.

 I also agree that Hitler was Christian.

 

Quote:
 

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

I'm not talking about Hitler. I'm talking about high ranking members of the Nazi party.

 

In the other thread Ben said that the Nazis were Christian. I countered by listing atheist Nazi officals.

I was asleep at the wheel when I accepted those. Bormann was apparently an outspoken atheist, according to the wiki, but wikipedia isn't exactly a top notch source. The other articles only mention, at the bottom, that the subject of the article was a German atheist. You have to do better. Even so, one atheist amongst a bunch of christians doesn't make the organization not christian. The British Nationalist Party is known as a racist and anti-semitic organization, but it let in a Jew. Is it now suddenly not racist or anti-semitic?

 

I found some support from ATHEIST websites

Here:

http://www.nobeliefs.com/HitlerSources.htm

 

the article wrote:

considering Bormann's biased views against Catholicism. 

 

It is well known that Bormann secretly worked against the Catholic religion behind Hitler's back and without his permission. 

 

another atheist website:

some guy named beepbeepitsme wrote:


The only supposed contrary information concerning hitler and his religiousity appear in "Table Talk" a book which was edited by the anti-Catholic, Bormann. In other words, there are no originals and the copies were filtered and edited by Bormann.

The table talk cannot be considered a first-hand recording of Hitler's words. There are no original copies.

Two scribes recorded Hitler's conversations at the appointment of Martin Bormann. One was recorded by a civil servant in the Reich Ministry of Justice, Heinrich Heim from 5th July 1941 to 20th March 1942. Later, from 21st March 1942 until 31st July 1942, it was taken by Dr. Henry Piker.

Dr. Picker regarded his own recording as authentic and insisted that "no confidence can be placed in Bormann's editing of it." Indeed, he writes, rather testily, of "Bormann's alterations, not authorised by me." [Trevor-Roper, p.viii].

Unfortunately, we do not have the unaltered version of Dr. Picker's or Heim's recordings.

Bormann was notoriously anti-catholic and an atheist. Table Talk is the ONLY source to claim that Hitler was an atheist.

Bormann, however, was an atheist and he got to edit the transcriptions of both Picker and Heim.

 

another website:

http://www.lava.net/~hcssc/Hitler.html

 

The article is not about Bormann, but it does mention him in the end notes.

 

Quote:

Martin Bormann stood as one of the few top Nazis who rejected Christianity.

 

 

The whole mess of people thinking that Hitler was atheist was caused in part by Bormann.

 

I'm still working on the research of the others. 


Posted on: June 27, 2007 - 6:04pm #14
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I think I found the source

I think I found the source for the claim that he was an outspoken atheist. It's a quotation from Bormann post WW2:

"National Socialist and Christian conceptions are incompatible. The Christian churches build upon men's ignorance; by contrast [National Socialism] rests upon scientific foundations.

When we [National Socialists] speak of belief in God, we do not mean, like the naive Christians and their spiritual exploiters, a man-like being sitting around somewhere in the universe. The force governed by natural law by which all these countless planets move in the universe, we call omnipotence or God. The assertion that this universal force can trouble itself about the destiny of each individual being, every smallest earthly bacillus, can be influenced by so-called prayers or other surprising things, depends upon a requisite dose of naivety or else upon shameless professional self-interest."

H. R. Trevor-Roper, 'Martin Bormann', Der Monat, No. 68, May 1954.

 But in my mind, doesn't that statement make him a deist?

 

"A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven." -- former Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chretien


Posted on: June 28, 2007 - 6:36pm #15
Cpt_pineapple
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stillmatic wrote:

stillmatic wrote:

I think I found the source for the claim that he was an outspoken atheist. It's a quotation from Bormann post WW2:

"National Socialist and Christian conceptions are incompatible. The Christian churches build upon men's ignorance; by contrast [National Socialism] rests upon scientific foundations.

When we [National Socialists] speak of belief in God, we do not mean, like the naive Christians and their spiritual exploiters, a man-like being sitting around somewhere in the universe. The force governed by natural law by which all these countless planets move in the universe, we call omnipotence or God. The assertion that this universal force can trouble itself about the destiny of each individual being, every smallest earthly bacillus, can be influenced by so-called prayers or other surprising things, depends upon a requisite dose of naivety or else upon shameless professional self-interest."

H. R. Trevor-Roper, 'Martin Bormann', Der Monat, No. 68, May 1954.

But in my mind, doesn't that statement make him a deist?

 

 

That's odd that it would be post WWII. I thought he killed himself before the Nuremberg trials and was tried in absence.

 

Anyway, even if he was a Diest, my point still stands that he was not Christian.

 [edit for clarity]


Posted on: July 4, 2007 - 1:12am #16
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But that's an entirely

But that's an entirely different thing in my opinion. Having an deist in your cabinet is not even close to having an atheist.

I still personally believe that Hitler probably wasn't much of a religious man except for his understanding of how to us it to his own ends.

"A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven." -- former Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chretien


Posted on: July 4, 2007 - 6:12pm #17
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stillmatic wrote: But

stillmatic wrote:

But that's an entirely different thing in my opinion. Having an deist in your cabinet is not even close to having an atheist.

I still personally believe that Hitler probably wasn't much of a religious man except for his understanding of how to us it to his own ends.

 

Bormann was still Ant-Christian whether he was atheist, Hindu, Muslim or believed in the FSM.  Which is my point.

 

I'll watch mustard's video when I get the time.  


Posted on: July 5, 2007 - 11:54pm #18
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Okay, I watched the video

Okay, I watched the video the mustard posted.

 

It is extremely likely that Hitler would have done WWII regardless of his religion or of those of the Germans.

 

My view of it was that they said that religion drove people to support Hitler. I call bullshit. Hitler, was also anti-communist and promised economic prosperity for Germany.

 

[edit: I missed the part at the end of the video where they mention that there are other reasons for the war. which is my point]