Christians and Sexuality, Masturbation, and Use of Contraception
Offline Now im new here, and if this is deemed inappropriate discussion i'll understand, but it is not my intent for it to be inappropriate. OK so the controversial topic of mastubation and christianity and the bible is one that I could never really grasp. Not only mastubation, but the use of contraception as well is seen as simply not good by devout chrisitans. I am athiest by the way.
Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: fornication, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of these the wrath of God is coming." (Col. 3:1-6)
OK, i understand what that they are saying, basically seperate earthly qualites from heavenly qualities (in my opinion). Also this is not the only passage refering to sexuality. But really, masturbation is natural and normal and to say otherwise i beleive is foolish. I mean really, if my friend said to me "Man i dont just dont want to masturbate anymore and dont want to experiance pleasure and sex" i would probably think there is something seriously wrong. I believe it is wrong to for christian adults to tell their children masturbation is wrong and evil (actually, dont ask dont tell is probably the best way to go about it), when it is natural. I think it is even worse to tell kids to not use a condom. We have the technology of contraception, we should use it, look at what could happen if some people didnt. They would either have a child at such a young age it could ruin there life, or they would have an abortion which i think would be on their minds for the rest of their life. So really what im trying to say is I think that to tell someone not to masturbate is wrong, and is like asking someone to not be themselves and act natural. Also, it is even more illogical to promote the idea of not using contraception, which could really just make things a whole lot easier. And on top of that, lust and sexual desire for pleasure is natural, and to promote the idea of never experiancing pleasure and sex for fun is wrong. Anyways, i dont mean to be too agressive if it came by that way, i just strongly disagree with what many christians believe and what i was told to believe.
So just was wondering what arguments chrisitans have for why you believe that what you believe relating to the topics above.
I am atheist
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This is one of the tenets of Christianity that is particularly repellant to me, as if the concept of hell wasn't repellant enough...
The thing is, I've never heard a good argument for why it's wrong. I'll give you some examples of what I've heard, and my responses:
Theist: Masturbation is wrong because you think lustful thoughts, which the bible says are a sin.
Atheist: Ok, the bible says lustful thoughts are a sin. Why is that? If we didn't have lustful thoughts, we wouldn't have sex, and wouldn't reproduce.
Theist: Well, before you're married, you're thinking of other people, and that's fornication, whether you think it or do it. Once you're married, you shouldn't masturbate because it's taking away from what your spouse should do.
Atheist: So, how do you get around to finding your spouse if you never have a lustful thought about them because they're not your spouse?
Theist: um... It's just wrong, ok?
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
It seems rather obvious that churches discourage masturbation and contraception in order to make believers reproduce as fast as possible. More sheep translates into more money and political influence for the church.
I suggest you look up the "Penn & Teller: Bullshit!" episode on this topic
I suppose I could see why the Church insisted that mastrubation and contraception was wrong back then. We needed to reproduce, as everyone has already said above.
For the Church to continue this practice is so socially irresponsible it's unbelievable. Not only does it allow sexually transmitted diseases to spread, we are so overpopulated to begin with! And since there appears to be a correlation between poverty and religion, a lot of these folks who are having a ton of kids can't afford to take care of them. It's disgusting that the Churches still preach this nonsense.
If god takes life he's an indian giver
The story of Onan in Gen 38 is the foundation for the argument against masturbation and contraception. In Genesis, God executes Onan for spilling his seed on the ground.
Whether or not Colossians was written by Paul (it's heavily disputed) it definitely repeats his radical Pharasee stance that all material things are inherently evil, and only spiritual things are good. (Some argue that this is a Persian influence in Judaism--the basic concept is the same in Zoroastrianism.) This, along with the Persian-influenced ideas of Augustine of Hippo are usually seen as the sources of Christian anti-sex prejudice.
"After Jesus was born, the Old Testament basically became a way for Bible publishers to keep their word count up." -Stephen Colbert
I had read once that Onan was killed not so much for spilling his seed, but for not honoring the law. He was not masturbating, but rather pulled out after sex with his deceased brother's wife. The law was that to carry on his brothers bloodline he was to impregnate his brother's widow (don't ask me the logic, I think it's weird too). But if his brother's widow conceived a son then he would not be first in line for his father's inheritance. Using this scripture to build a case against masturbation is pretty much taking the whole thing out of context.
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Yeah, I heard the same various things at different Sunday schools when I was a kid. The Onan story has been used to justify all kinds of condradictory practices over the years.
The anti-masturbation and anti-contraceptive reading of Onan is primarily a Catholic thing (which is why Baptists learned the other version, because Baptists love to talk about how wrong Catholics are). The U.S. and British anti-masturbation movement, especially in the 19th century, got its justification from 'scientific' studies that proved it led to physical failty, moral weakness and a mental illness called 'masturbatory insanity.' If you're an American non-Jewish male and ever wondered why you have a medically-unecessary circumcision, you can thank Dr. Lewis Sayre and his 19th century crusade to prevent masturbation through male genital mutilation.
"After Jesus was born, the Old Testament basically became a way for Bible publishers to keep their word count up." -Stephen Colbert
One thing I never understood is (which was hinted at already) is that there are passages that say quite clearly that fornicating is wrong and shouldn't be done but then there are other passages that exclaim that we should spread and multiply. Now, Im not sextologist but, how can we multiply if we can't fornicate? Did God design us as asexual creatures and forget to tell us?
" Why does God always got such wacky shit to say? . . . When was the last time you heard somebody say 'look God told me to get a muffin and a cup tea and cool out man'?" - Dov Davidoff
Fornication is fucking anything that moves. Going forth and multiplying is making babies with your wife (wives). One reason for prohibition of sex outside of marraige was so that bloodlines and inheritance issues were clear. How it became codified into religion is another question.
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Christopher Hitchens has a good take on this. He points out that it is a very common human phenomenon for people publically lash out against the things they privately desire the most as a kind of overcompensation to try to hide their own obsession. So why do Christians try to repress sexuality? Because it's all they can think about.
Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown
Here's a website that discusses what the Bible says about sexual issues. I'm pretty sure its a spoof:
http://www.sexinchrist.com/
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. - Seneca
Ya think?
I met a Christian once who thought his ministry was to "share" sex.
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Well, unless your wife is that which does not move, fucking her counts as fucking something that moves, thus, the contradiction remains.
" Why does God always got such wacky shit to say? . . . When was the last time you heard somebody say 'look God told me to get a muffin and a cup tea and cool out man'?" - Dov Davidoff
*sigh*
This went downhill fast, didn't it...
The buybull says that you can buy slaves, and gives rules for how you deal with them if you're buying them to um... know... biblically.
So, I think the deal is, if you pay for the girl, it's not fornicating. But, since slaves are illegal in America, the closest we can do is own people for brief periods, i.e. employ them. So, it stands to reason that if you're with a prostitute, it's not fornicating.
Particularly if your wife doesn't move.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Duh. In biblical sex, the wife doesn't move. She's completely passive. No contradiction.
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Wait, I'm confused. As long as the chick doesn't move, it's not fornication? If the woman does move, it is fornication? Basically, a woman can have sex with as many guys as she wants as long as she lays there and doesn't move. Hmmm...
If god takes life he's an indian giver
I might be reading this all wrong but, you made it sound like f- . . eloping with your wife is more against the Bible than eloping with a prostitute since eloping your wife is fornicating while eloping a prostitute is not.
" Why does God always got such wacky shit to say? . . . When was the last time you heard somebody say 'look God told me to get a muffin and a cup tea and cool out man'?" - Dov Davidoff
So it only matters if the movement occurs during the actual act itself? And isn't it a logical impossbility to elope without her moving? I mean, things seperate when Long John Spreads the ice so to speak.
" Why does God always got such wacky shit to say? . . . When was the last time you heard somebody say 'look God told me to get a muffin and a cup tea and cool out man'?" - Dov Davidoff
To preface what I am about to say I would like whoever is reading this to know that I am a non-denominational Christian and I would like to ask you to do your own research into the Bible's teachings before deciding what to believe. The Bible has all the answers you are looking for if only you will take the time to read and digest the information.
I also regret that all Christians get a bad reputation on topics like these where most of them just regurgitate what they have been taught by OTHER PEOPLE instead of going back to the Bible to get their beliefs.
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In the story of Onan, Onan's brother Er is killed by God for doing evil things. Onan was supposed to marry Er's wife Tamar and raise Er's family according to the Law of that land. Onan was supposed to have a child with Tamar which would have been the heir to his father Er and would recieve all of the gifts that the first born son was to get.
"But the Lord considered it evil for Onan to deny a child to his dead brother."
Onan in his greed and selfishness decided not to have a child with Tamar and therefore was killed.
So there you go, no personal thoughts or personal "translation" of the Bilbe, Onan was evil to (according to God) "... deny a child to his dead brother," not for "spilling his seed" or in this case for contraceptive use!
Also on the topic of contraceptive use, the Bible does not say contraceptive use is evil or sinful; although the "day after pill" is the same a killing an infant because it chemically causes the fetilized egg (a complete life form able to become baby) to detach from the uterus wall causing the potential baby to die. Using contraceptives such as condoms falls in the category of family planning as does timing when to have sex.
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As far a masturbation goes, it is important to understand that the act itself is not wrong, it is what happens in your mind that is connected to the act of masturbating that is wrong. This topic is a very deep discussion which cannot truly be properly understood through an online forum so I would suggest that anyone who is truly interested in getting further insight read the book "Every Man's Battle." It is not too long and will answer most if not all of your questions on mastubation and a few other topics.
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Once again, I believe what the Bible says, not neccessarily what other people "tell" me the Bible says. Take time to research and get a firm foundation for what you choose to believe in.
Thanks for reading!
edit: Theist should have said: You do not have to think lustful thoughts to acknowlege that a woman is beautiful. In other words, you do not have to get sexually excited when you see a beautiful woman. It all has to do with being mature enough to control your thoughts.
Actually, the fundamentalist Bible thumpers are the ones giving Christians a bad name these days. As you so aptly demonstrate below...
So Onan refused to impregnate his brother's widow and for that God killed him? This is the book you use as a foundation for morality? What's the punishment for refusing to slap around your kids? Or insisting on being honest with your friends?
Amazing! And proof of the Bible's prophetic nature if true! Please point to the passages in the Bible that discuss contraceptives, the day after pill, chemicals, fertilization, human eggs, uteri, condoms and family planning.
Anything you can discuss in person can be discussed here. We have a shiny new server and lots of bandwidth, so go nuts. If you want, go ahead and cut and paste some short passaged from Every Man's Battle so we can all roll on the floor laughing. Please.
Don't keep us in suspense. What is it that happens inside your mind during masturbation that is so wrong? And, once again, since you are so fond of the literal Bible passages, please point out where masturbation and its associated psychology are discussed in the Bible.
You seem to be suggesting that sexual arousal outside of the the marital bed is wrong. If so, why did God curse us with it?
I think your comments here would carry a lot more weight if you actually made some reference to what the Bible actually says. Like so many so-called fundamentalists, you are taking your Bible teachings with a heaping dollop of selective interpretation.
Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown
No one can control their thoughts. If you disagree, then please demonstrate your control: do not think about an elephant for the next minute. Ready? Go!
How'd that go? Not so good? Don't feel bad, no one is able to do that because in order to control a thought, you have to have the thought first. So what you are really doing when you see a beautiful girl (if you are straight) is feeling sexually excited but repressing it and lying to yourself that you never had the feeling. Which only makes you think it more, which is why Christians are so obsessed with sex.
It is actually immature and sexually inexperienced people who lack confidence in their ability to behave appropriately around people they find attractive, and thus attempt to deny and repress their feelings. Mature adults just go ahead and find attractive people sexually stimulating, keep their thoughts to themselves and go about their day.
Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown
And then that theist would have been a liar and an asshole. How dare you presume that maturity has anything to do with lustful thoughts or self-control at all. It is only biological that a man finds a woman (or sometimes a man) attractive in a sexual way. If people did not find each other sexually attractive they would not be able to tell with whom they would desire to mate. If a person wilfully repressed a lustful thought about someone and continued on in that behaviour, that person has still had a lustful thought. I would not believe you if you told me you'd never had a 'lustful' thought, the claim is so extreme as to be unbelievable. What you've painted yourself as is a sexually repressed prude with a poor grasp on the logical consequences of the inane gibberish you're spouting. Sexual attractiveness is more than just looks, by the way.
BigUniverse wrote,
"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."
Before we start, I am the same user as <b>Anonymousoecam2025</b> and <b>Anonymousasdfadfadf</b>
First, to answer this question I'll refer it to Tilberian.
Just out of curiosity, what have you read that gave you this negative outlook on the Bible and Christianity Timathy?
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God does not punish for refusing to "slap your kids around," just as he doesen't punish us for insisting on being honest with our friends. Although there is a principle of sowing and reaping which says, "Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows" (Galatians 6:7 NIV.) You can still get the same negative result from "slapping your kids around" as you would by not "slapping your kids around" which would be that they grow up without certain understandings about life. If you could elaborate why you think the Bible condones "slapping you kids around," I would be happy to discuss (not debate) that topic with you.
As far as insisting on being honest with your friends go, can you be honest with your friends without telling them everything that's on your mind?
The whole idea of this section is to say that not everything is a sin, but every action and thought that we have will grow and eventually we will reap of those grown harvests.
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Make sure that you watch where your information comes from and by that I mean do not take everything that you hear "Christians" say and think for one second that we all study and live by the Bible. "For merely listening to the law doesn’t make us right with God. It is obeying the law that makes us right in his sight" (Romans 2:13.) There are Christians who have lived their life listening to preachers preach but have not cracked open the Bible more than a couple of times in their life. Just as most people would take the financial advise of a self-made millionaire than someone who is living paycheck to paycheck.
So now I am left wondering how much many have read, and more importantly, studied the Bible and it's message. Most of the Bible's complete messages are found in many chapters throughout the Bible. A person cannot read one verse or one chapter and expect to have a full understanding of what God is trying to teach us. I do not know everything, I do not know claim to know a lot, I do not claim to be better than or more significant than anyone else, I just choose to live my life as closley to the Bible as I can. No one is perfect (especially me) and I do not expect anyone to be perfect. Romans 3:9-19 make this very clear to me.
Let me share with you a few of the Bible's teaching and let me know if these are a bad way to live life:
1) "Dear brothers and sisters, if another believer is overcome by some sin, you who are godly should gently and humbly help that person back onto the right path. And be careful not to fall into the same temptation yourself. 2 Share each other’s burdens, and in this way obey the law of Christ. 3 If you think you are too important to help someone, you are only fooling yourself (Romans 2:18.)
2) Bless those who persecute you. Don’t curse them; pray that God will bless them. 15 Be happy with those who are happy, and weep with those who weep. 16 Live in harmony with each other. Don’t be too proud to enjoy the company of ordinary people. And don’t think you know it all!
“If your enemies are hungry, feed them.
If they are thirsty, give them something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap
burning coals of shame on their heads.”(Romans 12:14-20)
3) The entire Proverbs chapter (1-31)
4) "Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.
"You shall not murder.
"You shall not commit adultery.
"You shall not steal.
"You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
(Exodus 20)
And just out of curiosity Tilberian (and any other person reading this blog - even other Christians), my foundation for morality is and will always be the Bible, but ... what is your foundation for morality?
First, to answer this question I'll refer it to Tilberian.
I would agree with you and disagree with Timathy that maturity has something to do with self-control. However, I would agree with Timathy that it has nothing to do with lustful thoughts, which start occuring as soon as you are old enough and don't stop until you are dead, if you are normal. Since the point at hand is whether it is feasible or realistic to expect people to prevent themselves from having lustful thoughts, I think, on the whole, we disagree.
Do you agree with God's actions in this story? Does it seem reasonable to you that God should try to force a man to impregnate his sister-in-law?
I think you missed my point, which is partially my fault for being facetious. You see, I can sympathize with Onan for not wanting to sleep with his sister-in-law. God's actions in this story seem to me to be brutal and callous...and needlessly so since there must have been other ways for an omnipotent God to make sure that Judah's legacy went to the right person. Then there's the question of why God would be so obsessed with one man's estate...
I made the comments about not slapping around kids and not lying to friends to try to illustrate the point that, in my opinion, God was punishing Onan for taking a principled stance.
I think you are taking the right approach. Since you acknowledge that your interpretation of the Bible is not perfect, you will no doubt be interested to learn how others interpret your favorite passages. I think I can promise that you will see some interpretations on this board that you have not encountered before.
Great, as long as the believer in question wants to be helped. I think a lot of Christians down through the ages have taken this passage as a license to meddle.
Hm, it was clicking along so well right up until that last line. Then we see that the point is not to actually approach a godly state of humility and gracious, unconditional love, but to apply a guilt trip. What is the appropriate reaction of the Christian, I wonder, if the enemy in question does not feel the shame he is supposed to feel? I can tell you how some Christians have answered that question: they applied real burning coals instead of metaphorical ones!
Too much there to comment on here.
Those are all good rules, of course, but versions of them predate the Bible by millenia and have probably been present in every human society since we came out of the trees. Zero points for originality.
My foundation for morality is my understanding of my humanity that I share with others and my perception of my duty to myself and society. These understandings and perceptions come to me from a variety of sources: the teachings of my parents and others, my own learning and reason and my instinctive sense of empathy.
Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown
It's Thomathy, not Timathy.
Sorry.
I was going to say what Tilberian said, so props to him.
*bump*
'S'okay. Actually, I can't really follow your post... I'm confused. Where did MichaelT go anyhow? I guess he scampered off.
BigUniverse wrote,
"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."
You're obviously dealing with people that haven't had much of a backround on the issue. Lust is different than love, pure and simple (quite literally). Lust is when you see someone as an object of sex, as opposed to love when you see sex as something you do to bond and become closer with your spouse. Thinking about your spouse in a lustful way is to envision them as someone submitting to what you want and only you deriving of pleasure, which if you don't view as wrong you may have issues keeping a steady relationship...As opposed to thinking of your spouse sexually when you think of how you can enjoy each other more. This is not only a good thing (how else can you have fun in bed
) but encouraged.
It is said that God's law is present in man's heart (I don't know the verse nor care). The reason this became codified in religion is because God's laws, if followed, allow for peace. In this example, if people observed this in particular there would be no fighting for estates (outside of greedy children). I don't believe the Bible is the be all end of considering at times it's obvious someone messed around with it, either fitting this quote, "The path to hell is paved with good intentions" or someone was just trying to rectify their actions using the Bible as a scapegoat to the masses who couldn't read. Oh, and in regard to the question you replied to, it should be known that you can absolutely multiply in a marriage...that's sorta why I have two brothers and two sisters XD. I may be a stupid Christian, but if math serves my parents added enough people that when they die there will still be a tiny bit more than double the people remaining than who started here