Teacher won't let us debate about religion
Offline I live in canada, and it's my last year in high school.
Today our english teacher told us that we are going to be doing debates about various subjects. She asked for any suggestions. I raised my hand and said religion. She said she thinks it'll offend people, without asking if anyone would be offended, and said, "I'm open minded about it, but just no."
I was so effin angry at her. After class I went to see her about it, I said, "well if you don't want to talk about religion, how about the existence of god? Or creationism being taught in schools?" She said no to both. That's when I started arguing with her and made it clear that she has no reason to not let us talk about religion. So she said she'll think about it.
Here's the kicker. My friends had english class later today, and the teacher said to them (before anyone even mentionned it) that no one could debate religion. My friends told me this.
So I don't know what to do about it, I want to explode at her tomorrow for being totally two-faced. I'm certain she isn't letting us do it because she's a catholic, I mean the previous years we've talk about religious symbols in schools and stuff. She's being a total arse. Sorry I'm just mad, I don't know what to do.
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Teachers like that are so ridiculous. She's not being objective about it at all. The only thing I can think of is to circulate a petition and get the signature of the majority of your classmates agreeing that they wouldn't mind religion being debated. If you get that, and she still says no, then you have good reason to go over her head to the principal, because you have clear evidence that she's being unreasonable.
It might still not work though, since schools really try to be careful about religion, since there are so many parents who will get hysterical about their kids being exposed to different opinions about religion. But still, it's a good idea to try.
As my mother use to say. Teacher is a diagnosis.
She have the opinion that its some sort of mental disorder. Teachers do the darndest things.
I hope shes not right though, as I risk becomming one.
"Everyone knows that God drives a Plymouth: "And He drove Adam And Eve from the Garden of Eden in His Fury."
And that Moses liked British cars: "The roar of Moses' Triumph was heard throughout the hills."
On the other hand, Jesus humbly drove a Honda but didn't brag about it, because in his own words: "I did not speak of my own Accord." "
Is it one debate topic for the whole class, or do you get to debate your own topic? If so, you could do a judo move and do something like debating the truth of various myths or fairy tales. You could then say, well obviously Santa is false, but maybe Zeus is real. You could defend Zeus and show how ridiculous such a position is. You could even say that "I believe in Zeus because I have faith in Zeus, and you can't argue against my faith." Or you could debate evolution vs. Intelligent Design (not 'Creationism'
and show how the debate boils down to evidence and scientific validity (ability to make testable, falsifiable predicitions).
Try to be creative, try to indirectly debate the foundations of religion (faith, dogma, etc.) without calling it 'religion'. You could debate psychics or homeopathy or some other topic worthy of the show 'Bullshit!' Alien visitations, or whatever. You can always make subtle hints that they are the same as religion. Or debate communism vs. democracy and show that communism is a faith-based ideology and that faith-based ideologies are universally without merit.
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I agree with your teacher
You know as well as I do that if you try to debate subjects like the existance of god or religion many people are not only going to get offended but it will spark animosity amongst students beyond the classroom setting. I mean it's bad enough that students single out other students for stupid reasons but it will cause a clash of beliefs. I mean not just Believers against non believers but Religion against religion. it would start out as a debate but it would turn into a full on argument. Muslims against Christians, Christians against Atheists, Christians against other denominations of Christianity. Although I do feel it is very important to discuss these subjects I feel like school is the wrong place to do it. I think your teacher see's the potential for conflict and she would rather just avoid it all together. Not to mention if you are outing yourself you are subjecting yourself to fundementalism. When i was in school I was a christian and I along with other fundie students would fill Atheist's lockers with bible tracts and hand them bibles...Do you really want that? It's better to leave religion out of schools all together. We have enough issues in school without it. Students hardly get along as it is. This is one of the subjects I spoke about at the Austin Separation of Church and state Rally. Religion has no place in school on any level.
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natural is right
Are you attending a public high school in Canada? It hardly matters, though being in a Catholic school would obviously impact your teacher's decision. I wouldn't get too concerned about not being able to do the debate and I agree with Natural. Even if the students do agree with you that it should be an acceptable topic, do you really care all that much? Is it really important enough to make a fuss? I expect no. After all, this is a high school English class. Perhaps if you were taking Introduction to Anthropology, Sociology and Psychology or World Religions the case would be different. What exactly is the premise for these debates? What are their purpose?
BigUniverse wrote,
"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."
I can understand your teacher saying no. Schools worry about being sued over such things, so they are very unlikely to take the risk.
This is a Canadian school. It's not worried about being sued over any such thing. It can't be. There is no 'risk' in having religion as a debate topic in any sense. The only issue here is that the teacher thinks it would be inappropriate in the class and that some students (it is important here that we mean some students and not their parents or anyone else) might be offended by such a discussion. This is the teacher's prerogative. It is her calssroom. That being said, I do think she's wrong, but I'm sure it's not terribly important. As I said, it is a high school English class and it doesn't really matter. There are ways, as have been suggested, to circumvent this teacher's inanity. I believe that's the most useful path.
BigUniverse wrote,
"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."
Sorry, I didn't know it was different in Canada.
When I was in schoolteacher school in the U.S., training to be a public school teacher, they always told us to cover our assets. Prop the classroom door open when a student comes to talk to you alone. Always report anyone's use of the words "suicide" or "murder." And, avoid talking about religion, sex or politics in the classroom.
Even if nobody sues anybody, I've personally witnessed a couple of times the case where a bunch of parents come out to a school board meeting and pressure to have a particular teacher fired, just on the basis of an accusation without any proof. Once this kind of thing happens to you, your teaching career is over.
This never happens in Canada?
"After Jesus was born, the Old Testament basically became a way for Bible publishers to keep their word count up." -Stephen Colbert
No.
edit: Least ways not in Ontario. School boards operate differently here than in the United States (go figure). The districts are relatively enormous. It is simply not the case that religion, politics or sex are off limits topics in schools here. They just aren't. Teachers mention 'worse' things than politics, religion or sex. The atmosphere is, I expect, extremely different (verging on not comparable) in a Canadian school than in any American school. I would be disturbed if I ever learned of a Canadian teacher being somehow fired because of a debate about religion. This would not be the first time a debate of the nature has been dismissed, but were it not dismissed, it would not be the first time the debate was allowed to take place (and without any problem).
BigUniverse wrote,
"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."
Dude I totally never thought of communism like that. I really want to discuss this. But I don't want to threadjack. Starting new thread here:
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/the_rational_response_squad_radio_show/freethinking_anonymous/10141
[edit: spelling]
Your resident OTD/S, Christina
A good scientist will always change her mind if new evidence is presented which gives her sufficient reason to change it.
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I can understand it. My mother is an English professor, among the classes she teaches often are on debates and argumentative persuasion. She has an entire list of topics that are not allowed -- simply because every class, most people want to do the same thing over and over and over. Religion, abortion, gun ownership and marijuana... out of 30 students, at least 15 will pick one of those topics. By not allowing it, it forces the students to find other subjects that they may not have even considered before or find subjects that they may actually have to research before they can argue for or against.
My last two years of high school, I went to a public school. I only brought up atheism if someone else brought up religion. Of course, the teacher never did because they weren't allowed to, but if some Jesus freak did, I would balance out the equation. I think it was fair. It was never really encouraged by the teachers, but they never really discouraged it, either. The only real bullshit I got was from the students and they didn't know much about their religion, so I would just rip them a new intellectual asshole.
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=SnerdWilliams Independent Atheist Movement Forums
First off, she said we can debate about anything we want, and when I said religion, she said except that. She's a catholic, she opposed removing crosses from the walls, cause my public high school used to be a catholic school like 20 years ago.
There was quite a feud with her today at lunch time in the caf, and I won it.
Thing is, she said she doesnt want to do religion cause people will get offended. I told her today "Look, when you said you won't want to do it cause itll offend people, don't say itll offend people, try ASKING if anyone would be offended." That's what I did, I asked almost everybody in our class if they would be offended, and no one said yes.
In fact, while we were arguing in the caf, people gathered around and everybody said they want to do it. Eventually, after a lot of hearing her say 'its my english class, I run it the way I want" she accepted.
Congratulations. I hope the debate goes well. You will post about it here, right?
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=SnerdWilliams Independent Atheist Movement Forums
It's not the diplomatic approach, nor is it circumventive, but it worked just as well for you. I'm glad you'll do the debate you want (apparently you do really want to do it).
BigUniverse wrote,
"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."
My first debate of the year in U.S. History was Evolution versus Creation. The teacher tried to make clear that this wasn't about religion versus another religion or versus non-religion, though bringing up religion in a debate about that is inevitable; it happened but the whole thing went very well. The Evolution side won (with only a bare handful of people speaking, myself included), and there was no unpleasantness between the class after the debate or after the period.
Funny thing, one of the people on the Creation side, whether he realized it or not, ended up arguing for Natural Selection. A lot of people in the class were confused, but basically all the smart kids were on the Evolution side.
Vain are the thousand creeds
That move men's hearts, unutterably vain,
Worthless as withered weeds
Or idlest froth amid the boundless main
I'm glad you won and got your debates. I was going to say, if nothing else, you could try to gather some students to debate on your own time.
Funny you debated about evolution: I just watched a tape of The View yesterday, and actress Sherri Shephard says she doesn't believe in evolution. It's amazing that people choose to believe whatever a book tells them, no matter what proof they see. They call that "faith." I think you can have faith (although I prefer evidence over faith) and still use some brain cells, so why don't people do it?