Speaking Out Amist Theist Violence
Offline I'm going to try and keep this generic because of the intensity of the situation and while I wouldn't mind sharing it with you all I don't want to end up as the first hit on a google search.
At a public university a quiet area was set up quite some time ago. It wasn't used much however recentally certain events have caused a particular religious group to pretty much take over the space. From my sources, the university is considering making it bigger because this group (and no one else) is complaining it is too small.
People of other faiths (or lacking faith) try to use this space but the majority of the time they are "encouraged" to leave and let's just say it's not in a happy way. I'm upset that the school is seriously considering expaning this space - especially since it will just make the religious intolerance worse. The school claims expanding this space as well as other modifications are not illegal and they will proceed with them because:
1. the space is open for everyone (perhaps the school intends this but it is not the case)
2. student fees rather than tax dollars are being spent on this construction
3. no one has complained in the past
Well people want to complain but they are f-ing scared too. This is, in part, due to recent worldwide events and the large presence of this group on campus. I've had it. I have a letter ready to send to the administration as I finally secured contact information for the personel that needs to hear this.
My question is how would you all go about this. I've thought about doing it anonymously but that won't have much effect. I'll sign it - but I know it would carry more weight if others would too. There is clearly not a lack of thinking in agreement with my thoughts - just a lack of motivation to speak up. I would stay silent too but this is the third time this has happened now so judging from history it will just get worse. Do you all think I should just sign it myself and say to hell with the consequences or does anone have an idea for getting others to sign?
My original idea was to get a group to back it - such as signing it with something like "students of the secular xyz group" but getting this group off the ground has been taking a while and the administration is making a decision on the space soon.
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I think complaining for the sake of complaining probably won't work.
It's my opinion that you would need to have a secular group that wants to use the space and see if you're allowed. If not, you have reason to complain because you also pay tuition.
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Thanks for the input, Susan.
We don't really have a good secular group. I happen to be in the middle of forming one but I'm having some setbacks and it won't be up and running before they decide on this expansion project.
The thing is students know if they go in there and are not members of this religious group they are intimidated with nasty looks and insults... they are even told things like that they *have* to take their shoes off (a religious practice, btw), etc which I think is worse that the generic insults because it goes to show that they think the space is just for their religion.
I have an idea though, which may sound radical... I thinking about sitting to the side and discretly filming video of what happens in here and presenting that to the administration. I have some friends that do not go to the school that are willing to try and walk in and meditate in non-religious ways.
This idea is just on the drawing board right now but I think it would enable the administration to see what really goes on in there.
I think setting up a recording would be a great idea.
But here's another thought. What if you could gather a bunch of other students to encroach upon this group's space? It doesn't have to be a large group flocking to the area all at once, which would probably put them on the defensive. Just a few brave souls the first day, then a few more the next, and a few more after that... See what I'm getting at? Or fuck it, get as many people as you can to use the space as it was meant to be. Tell everyone to bring their school books and sit on the grass and read, completely ignoring the other group. They will have no grounds to complain.
And these people should REFUSE to accomodate this group any more than is socially necessary. Keep chatter and music to a polite level, ignore the group. This group appears to know that they've intimidated the rest of the campus. It's time to let them know their tactics are no longer acceptable. These kids should not be able to act like a Christian version of the Sopranos.
If god takes life he's an indian giver
I think the video is a great idea. See if they're as brave with a camera pointed at them.
If they're as possessive on camera, showing it to the administration would be fair. Make a list of arguments (such as "it's everyone's tuition paying for this room which should be for all students"
to go along with the video might make a good point.
As always, never let them get you angry or get you to say something you wouldn't want your mother or the administration to hear.
P.S. Do people "obey" and take their shoes off? That's certainly a load of garbage!
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I wasn't planning on having the camera in their face - I wasn't going to go out of my way to hide it, either... I use a wheelchair and I was simply going to sit to the side with a book on my lap and the camera on top. I thought this would give the best idea of what *really* happens in there. The administration already does random census counts to see how the room is used but when they show up it is so obvious and everyone is on there good behavior. What do you all think? We (myself and some other students) are going to be discussing this today and hopefully start filming this weekend.
For the most part yes - in fact, even other non-religious students in student government advise people to take their shoes off and be respectful.
I only know of one time a student did not either take their shoes off or get intimidated for not taking their shoes off and left. However, in this instance the student with shoes was male and the religious student was female. She did shoot him several dirty looks from beneath her apparel but he ignored this and proceeded to walk over the unfolded prayer mats in his shoes. She then pulled away to the corner and kept her head low. Because I have only known of this to happen on this one occassion (I know the shoe wearing male) I have a feeling this was because the religious member was alone and female - not because they are actually changing their practice of intimidation.
complaining only works when:
1. You are a figure of importance. I.E. you own half the campus, your father is the president, or youve tricked a million people into believeing in your religion, and naturally are a multi billionaire.
2. You gather enough people with the same mindset as you, and file a petition, proving once again, that democracy works.
Sadly, i doubt either will work. In your case, it is probably more prudent to either try and get a direct conference or meeting with your campus dean, or join the religion, and use it with them.
Now, most likely their argument for using the space will be "No one else was using it before, why should it go to waste?" To counter, you should simply reply, "Public space is public, regardless of its popularity. If ABSOLUTELY no one was ever using the space, then go ahead. However, if even one person, uses this space, or would like to use this space while you engage in your activities, then clearly you should step aside."
Anonimity is of less importance right now. If you want to stay annonymous, then you should either wait for another person to step up, or send anonymous letters to your local newspaper.
All in all, the religious group will most likely win. That is no reason to throw in the towel, though. This is obviously an outrage, as they are obviously wrong. However, this only confirms our belief, that religion is truly growing stronger, and that the first amendment is down the drain.
I'm infallible. I don't know why you can't remember that.
I just want to clarify that I do plan on putting my name on the letter accompaning the video as well as that of the other students that participate... I only plan on making the camera not blatently obvious because I thought it would be good for the administration to see what *really* happens there - not what happens when they know someone is watching. Of course, if someone asks me - I will tell them I am recording.
Recording their actions will not be helpful, unless they are doing something illegal.
However, if you record their activities, and use it as proof that their activities can easily be done in an empty classroom or nearby church without the need for using this public space, that might provide some help for your cause.
I'm infallible. I don't know why you can't remember that.
First of all, I doubt very much if there's any reason to be afraid of these people. They are acting like jerks, but I haven't heard anything here that might suggest they would resort to violence.
My suggestion would be to show as little fear as possible and do everything that's been suggested here and more, always being careful to stay within the boundaries of the legal and appropriate. Ask yourself "what would Brian do"? Videoing them, insisting on being allowed into the area, insisting that they pick up their mats rather than force you to remove shoes, bringing a gang of friends, complaining to authorities and media, confronting them directly...it's all good. They are trying to take over a public space for religious purposes and they are 100% in the wrong. I'm not suggesting that you harass them into leaving, but that you simply insist that you and as many of your friends as you want get equal access to the space with no backlash from them.
Here's a simple plan: grab some friends and go to the space with some cameras. Ask them politely to move their mats or else you will have to walk over them. If they move the mats, great, if not, walk over them, shoes on, taping all the time. Make yourselves comfortable in the area. The minute one of them tries to cause a problem, whip out a video camera and start shooting again. Show all footage to the administration, campus media and local news media. Should get something going.
Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown
Sorry, but i would have to disagree.
Not about the videoing, or the other stuff, but specifically about actually stepping over them, if they refuse to move thier mats or whatever other objects they are using. Now, dont get me wrong. I think thats a brilliant idea, asking them to move. However, it is always best to be as respectful as you can. This way, your opponents cannot use your "disrespectfulness" against you, or use it as a character judgement to prove that you were the ones who were wrong, or, in the least, you were also at fault for being so rude.
I'm infallible. I don't know why you can't remember that.
I must say I agree and disagree. Being in a wheelchair there is no way to step around their mats. We talked about this tonight and decided that if there are an abundance of mats that are unused we will respectfully roll one or two up so that we can meditate.
We're doing this next week. I'll let you all know how it goes.
Ok, I'm confused. First, you call me a wussy and a suck up for suggesting that a person be 'respectful' in this thread, but here you claim that's acceptable. So, which one is it?
{EDIT - TYPO}
If god takes life he's an indian giver
Oh man, that's rich!
So which is it AngelEngine? respect or no respect?
Ah. Yes, i could understand why you would be confused.
Well, here is the clarification. I believe that you should not hold yourself back, when telling your opinion to others, especially when they deserve to know. However, i also believe that we live in a society where people are judged by what their actions do. I believe that they are willing to choose the lesser of two evils, and that every religion has a stranglehold over somebody. And, when trying to win an argument, or case, that rudeness and ammorality never help your cause. I also believe i understand society better than most, and that people in society hand out too much respect for religion, or atleast just enough to let some things slide by, even when they set back humanity a couple hundred years.
So, all in all, i say to you, that you shouldnt give an ounce of respect. However, i also believe that you should use restraint. You never need to respect them in order to restrain yourself from doing a stupid thing. After all, if you had any shred of respect in the first place, you wouldnt be here talking about it.
Anyways, hope this clears it up.
I'm infallible. I don't know why you can't remember that.
What religious group is it? Its important because it makes a difference as to whether you will be percieved as "insensitive" and "not respectful of diversity" or not.
Fire,
One of the reasons I posted this in the Atheist only forum was because I wanted advice from Atheists that may have deal with something like this and/or are familiar with this situation.
I did not include the name of my school, the formal name for the space, and the religion is because I know this site pops up on Google a lot and I didn't want this thread to end up in a search for those three items especially not now when I'm telling you all what we are doing. There are also considerable threats and intimidation going on in the area and on the campus in general... Obviously I'm taking a risk but I believe it's a reasonable one. Afterall, I have been known to be vocal on campus and am the founder of a secular group.
I believe through reading my initial post or perhaps maybe even expanding to the entire thread the religion in question is pretty obvious.
I would like to be perceived as a student that wishes to have access to a space my money has paid for on a state school when and if I wish to meditate or silently reflect. I find many others feel this way. Any student should be able to come in the room and do their silent meditaion, reflection and/or prayer and be able to sit or stand, shoes on or off. (Yes, I am fighting for the rights of other theists to pray and yes, the irony has been pointed out to me many times.) If I, or someone else, has to change their behavior of silent reflection to be more senstitive or respecting of diversity then you know what? This space is not what the school claims my money was spent for! The school claims it is a quiet area. Not a quiet area where we all walk around barefoot. When they designate this as a ballet area I will take my shoes off when I go in, but right now it's a quiet area. Not a quiet area where we sit on mats which are either the girl side or the boy side either. Been there, did that. It was called preschool nap time.
That being said, a group is there as we speak - so I should have some news for you all later today. (I'm sorry if I came off a little hostile - it wasn't directed at you but rather my frustration and anger over the situation. However, if I wasn't angry I probably wouldn't be motivated to do something here so maybe it's a good thing.)
You need support in order to change things. Where that support comes from doesn't really matter with regards to the religion of those that support you. I expect that there are many people on campus that feel as you do, but are apprehensive about rocking the boat. I'd contact other groups and see what they say about it and organise something that way. In the meantime I'd use the room/space just as it was intended, you are fully within your rights. Don't be intimidated, bullies love that. An MP3 player with microphone is a good way to record insults and unpleasantness (along with a witness or 5). Just do your thing/read a book and forget you have the MP3 running.
If I were to complain to the authorities I'd do it in a positive manner and not just complain about the use of the space.
I remember when I was at university and we had a couple of Iraqi post grads in the department (post GW1) and they had their prayer mats on tha back stairs of the building. A couple of us undergraduates used the stairs and thought that this was inappropriate and undignified so asked whether they could be given a room at the appriopriate times and a place to store the mats. This gesture was very much appreciated by these post grads (who incidentally were helping myself and other students) even though there were no complaints from them whatsoever.
I now work in industry and there is a very devout muslim in my department (devout, not a nutter, who's take on life is pretty much live and let live) and he uses one of the rooms with scientific equipment in for the midday prayer. If that is being used at lunch time due to urgency then he'll just wait and have 15 mins later. We accomodate him, he accomodates us.
Infact now I've had a moment to think about it I'd ask those that are using the space whether they are happy with it, bearing in mind what they are using it for.
If you are experiencing intimidation and threats then others will be too. It shouldn't be hard to drum up support by word of mouth, but be careful how you co-ordinate and conduct yourselves. Take the moral high ground and be polite and reserved no matter what the intimidation. 10 or 20 people seen using the space will soon balloon once the message gets out.
best of luck
P.S. And don't be afraid to use the fact that you use a chair either. You may not need to or want to, but it does persuade people in power even if their perceptions are wrong.