Home-Schooling: A threat to the republic?

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Home-Schooling: A threat to the republic?

Hello,

I want to start a discussion about home-schooling because I think it is dangerous to the society. It has always been impossible to me to understand how anyone could embrace it or how it could have become so popular in America - and when I listened to an older program of Albert Mohler yesterday I finally to the conclusion that home-schooling is dangerous to society.

Those of you who also want to listen to this Albert Mohler program of september the 3r can find it hear:

http://www.sbts.edu/MP3/totl/2007/AMP_09_03_2007.mp3

 

The United-States are quite alone amoung the developed nations having children exclusivly taught by their parents. In Germany and in France it is for good reasons unthinkable.  Over here (Germany) not to long ago christian parents lost the law suit in which they tried to fight for it.

The school isn't just a place where knowledge is passed to children. In a democracy it is the place where the republic is built every generation anew. Pupils don't just get lessons in mathematic, languag and so on the biggest lesson they learn is that they and their family are part of a larger society. Democracy is not just taught by the curriculum in the public school it is also taught by experience. It is one thing to read and the teached about different social groups with different interests, but it is a totally different thing to actually experience it yourself.

Therefor any attack on the public school is an attack on the heart of the republic. Getting away with it would definitly lead to a larger and deeper segregation of society in religious, racial and ideological groups. Not to mention the drop of general education in society.

Even if there are some parents who can teach better than teachers at public school. Overall teachers have the better education to do that and the school can provide good teachers in any field of expertise. While I could teach children in math and physics quite well, I would have really big problems teaching them in art, music and sports. Others might have other areas of expertise but I don't think there are many parents who are really good in all fields.

But the segregation part of the effects is worse. If you listened to this albert-mohler show you will know that he also argues against a state given curriculum for those parents who home-school and against common tests that students would have to pass. It's therefor not to deny that he and many evangelical christians want to abolish any control of the state on what is taught to children.

Just imagine the Klu Klux Klan would fight for that, or radical islamists or anyone else. As soon as home-schooling becomes standard in a nation the political groups would drift away from each other with an incredible pace.

Even if the state would have a right to control home-schoolers, the amount of them would prohibit an effective way to do so.

 

I believe that this is a very fewly thought through agenda of those evanglicals who want to strenghten the faith of their kids not concerning what happens to the rest of society. And what they do to get support in the general public is that they say it is due to lack of quality of education in the public school system.

I don't know the situation in the US, but if that would be true than it would be the duty of the parents to politically campaign for a change. Such a privatisation of the school system is a surrender to its problems this system might have. But to teach your children yourself instead of using those masses of time that consumes to fight for an improvement of the system, portrays a lack of confidence in the democratic system.

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I believe this has been

I believe this has been mentioned here before, and I think the person mentioning it was German. I suspect this is a cultural difference in attitude, and I suspect that you may have an exaggerated sense of how much impact home schooling actually has.

First, your assertion that the United States is alone in allowing home schooling seems to be incorrect. If the Wikipedia article is to be believed, there are several countries allowing home schooling, including France. In the US, the states regulate home schooling, which means that standards vary wildly from state to state.

I've heard it suggested that home-schooling is a major contributor to fundamentalism, but I am highly skeptical of that claim. Home schooling accounts for less than 2% of all students in the US, which may be enough to have some effect, but is very far from accounting for all fundamentalism here. As for being a threat to "the Republic", I don't think that's any more realistic. I do, however, think that there is a real danger in allowing the state to define and enforce its version of reality too strongly, and for that reason, I support diverse educational options. I also don't see any reason a public school education is necessary for students to learn proper civics.

Home schooling is not a trivial undertaking for parents, and the people who do it have to be extremely motivated. For that reason, if we ever reach the point that a large percentage of students are being educated at home, I would sooner suspect a major problem with public schools than a malevolence in those parents.

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rexlunae wrote: I believe

rexlunae wrote:
I believe this has been mentioned here before, and I think the person mentioning it was German. I suspect this is a cultural difference in attitude, and I suspect that you may have an exaggerated sense of how much impact home schooling actually has. First, your assertion that the United States is alone in allowing home schooling seems to be incorrect. If the Wikipedia article is to be believed, there are several countries allowing home schooling, including France. In the US, the states regulate home schooling, which means that standards vary wildly from state to state.

OK, I didn't know that about France and the other country. But for the reason that the home schooling movement is largest and fastest growing in America 

rexlunae wrote:
I've heard it suggested that home-schooling is a major contributor to fundamentalism, but I am highly skeptical of that claim. Home schooling accounts for less than 2% of all students in the US, which may be enough to have some effect, but is very far from accounting for all fundamentalism here. As for being a threat to "the Republic", I don't think that's any more realistic. I do, however, think that there is a real danger in allowing the state to define and enforce its version of reality too strongly, and for that reason, I support diverse educational options. I also don't see any reason a public school education is necessary for students to learn proper civics.

Home schooling is a major symptom of religious fundamentalism. In Germany the only group fighting for home schooling are fundamentalist christians. While muslims might have some problems with sports and sex-education but accept the school system as a whole, the only ones wanting to pull out their children totally from school are fundamentalist christians.

They do that because they believe that the school brings their children to sexual openess, undermines the authority of the parents and because it teaches evolution. 

rexlunae wrote:
Home schooling is not a trivial undertaking for parents, and the people who do it have to be extremely motivated. For that reason, if we ever reach the point that a large percentage of students are being educated at home, I would sooner suspect a major problem with public schools than a malevolence in those parents.

I don't have any problem with private schools as long as their curricula are supervised by the state. Those claims that public schools are bad and places of drugs and gangs are from my point of view just a campain of those christians to raise the acceptence of home-schooling, which they explicitly want uncontrolled by the state.

You can say that the German state is overacting, when it puts parents who don't want to send their children to school into jail (happened in Bavaria) - put a broad acceptence of home-schooling is for its effects and its motivation also wrong. 

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In America, it's not just

In America, it's not just extremely religious people who home school their children.

A large number of public schools in America (especially in large cities) are extremely underfunded, and therefore of poor quality and often unsafe. School funding is a huge educational (and political) issue. Many parents would rather educate their children themselves than send them to a poor-quality public school. Private school is always an option, but it is usually very expensive.

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geirj wrote: In America,

geirj wrote:

In America, it's not just extremely religious people who home school their children.

A large number of public schools in America (especially in large cities) are extremely underfunded, and therefore of poor quality and often unsafe. School funding is a huge educational (and political) issue. Many parents would rather educate their children themselves than send them to a poor-quality public school. Private school is always an option, but it is usually very expensive.

 

But wouldn't it than be better if those parents would put the time and power they use to educate their children themselves to start a political movement that could improve those schools? 

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One of the major donors to

One of the major donors to this site, David Mills, author of Atheist Universe, is a major homeschooling proponent. America has and hopefully always will have an individualist streak in it. Regardless of religious background, there are many Americans who believe they can do a better job schooling their children than the government run schools which have all sorts of other agendas than solely educating children (protecting the teacher's unions, securing more funding, etc). It is not inherently a threat if you ask me.


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GermanMike wrote: I don't

GermanMike wrote:

I don't have any problem with private schools as long as their curricula are supervised by the state. Those claims that public schools are bad and places of drugs and gangs are from my point of view just a campain of those christians to raise the acceptence of home-schooling, which they explicitly want uncontrolled by the state.

You can say that the German state is overacting, when it puts parents who don't want to send their children to school into jail (happened in Bavaria) - put a broad acceptence of home-schooling is for its effects and its motivation also wrong.

small note: this imprisonment isn't penal detention but coercive detention. If those parents don't send their children afterwards to school it's likely that custody will be withdrawn from them.

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Sure, and a lot of parents

Sure, and a lot of parents are doing that. But at the same time they don't want their children going to a bad school during the time it would take to get the school improved.

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Mengus22 wrote: One of the

Mengus22 wrote:
One of the major donors to this site, David Mills, author of Atheist Universe, is a major homeschooling proponent.

Do you know where I can find his argumentation for homeschooling? 

Mengus22 wrote:
America has and hopefully always will have an individualist streak in it.

Individualism doesn't develop on itself. It is really hard to imagine how a child, who is just just taught by it's parents and deprived during his/her childhood from all influences clashing with the worldview of his/her parents, can develop into an individualist.

If you want individualist children than you have to expose then (in a protected way) to the worldviews that are out there. Homeschooling is therefor a tool for individualist/egoisitic parents to press their worldviews onto their children and is therefor quite a good example where the individualism of one (there parents) clashes with the individualism of another (the children).

To force those children to go into the word of the public school enables them in the first place to become individualists and not just the image of their parents ideas. 

Mengus22 wrote:
Regardless of religious background, there are many Americans who believe they can do a better job schooling their children than the government run schools which have all sorts of other agendas than solely educating children (protecting the teacher's unions, securing more funding, etc). It is not inherently a threat if you ask me.

1st rebut: Many Americans also believe that the earth was created in 6 days  on the 23rd of octomber 4004 BC

2nd rebut: That people believe something doesn't mean that it is actually true. If you want to hand them over the responsiblity to teach their children at home, you also have to make sure that they are able to do so.  The more homeschooling grows the less effient those controls will become and as soon as you exceed a critical mass of homeschoolers it will become impossible.

There might be other agendas in the public school. But how could the teachers unions interest for a better payment of teachers collide with the parents interest of a good education for their children?

What would is bad if the state would want to have the schools better funded? The problem at the moment doesn't seem to be that the schools are overfunded.

What is really worrying are the agendas of most proponents of homeschooling. Fundamentlist bible thumpers surely don't want to use homeschooling to encourage individualism or critical thinking. 

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geirj wrote: But wouldn't

geirj wrote:

But wouldn't it than be better if those parents would put the time and power they use to educate their children themselves to start a political movement that could improve those schools?

So while the stay-at-home mom or dad spends all this time protesting their kid gets a shitty education?  sure, maybe things will slowly change for the next generation but let's not forget their motivation for doing this in the first place was THEIR child's education.

I'm not saying parents shouldn't take time to make things better - hell, even those without kids should... but there is the immediate problem of their child's education. 


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Quote: Individualism

Quote:

Individualism doesn't develop on itself. It is really hard to imagine how a child, who is just just taught by it's parents and deprived during his/her childhood from all influences clashing with the worldview of his/her parents, can develop into an individualist.

It is really hard to imagine how a child, whi is just taught by (insert name of religious private school here) and deprived during his/her childhood from all influences clashing with the worldview of (insert name of religious private school here), can develop into an individualist. 

Quote:

Homeschooling is therefor a tool for individualist/egoisitic parents to press their worldviews onto their children and is therefor quite a good example where the individualism of one (there parents) clashes with the individualism of another (the children).

So every parent does this?  No parent would school their child to, say, question everything? 

 

Quote:

To force those children to go into the word of the public school enables them in the first place to become individualists and not just the image of their parents ideas.

... 

1st rebut: Many Americans also believe that the earth was created in 6 days on the 23rd of octomber 4004 BC

2nd rebut: That people believe something doesn't mean that it is actually true. If you want to hand them over the responsiblity to teach their children at home, you also have to make sure that they are able to do so. The more homeschooling grows the less effient those controls will become and as soon as you exceed a critical mass of homeschoolers it will become impossible.

There might be other agendas in the public school. But how could the teachers unions interest for a better payment of teachers collide with the parents interest of a good education for their children?

Mike, this is an interesting argument and, personally, I do have some issues with homeschooling - however it seems your argument could also be applied to sending a child to a religious private school.  Are you saying that public, and only public schools should be allowed?  (Just trying to clarify.) 


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Something to keep in mind

Something to keep in mind about the impact of taking children out of the public school system is that it has a direct, negative financial impact on the school.  Schools receive funding per student.

It reminds me of the political tactic for some polititians to underfund an agency to the point where it can't function well anymore, then state "See?  It's broken because government can't and shouldn't do this, let's privatize it."  I know that's not the goal of parents who home school their children, but they are harming the public school system financially.

Susan


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shelleymtjoy wrote: So

shelleymtjoy wrote:

So every parent does this?  No parent would school their child to, say, question everything?

No sorry, I should have written 'homeschooling could be a tool for ...' 

shellymtjoy wrote:
 

Mike, this is an interesting argument and, personally, I do have some issues with homeschooling - however it seems your argument could also be applied to sending a child to a religious private school.  Are you saying that public, and only public schools should be allowed?  (Just trying to clarify.)

I'm not against private schools, because those can be supervised. In Germany the Catholic Church has by tradition quite a lot of private schools. Those schools are bound to the states curriculum and are regulary supervised. They even have to respect the choice of a student who don't want to have religious education anymore after he turned older than 14 (even against the will of his/her parents).

If those private schools would want to teach creationism they would actually be even allowed to do that within the religious education lessons they can offer.

That's another specialty of the German school system: Religion is taught as an opt-out subject in all schools. Under 14 the parents can decide wether their child is taught religion (normally catholic or protestant in some German schools also muslim) or not. If they opt-out they are taught in a subject called "Ethik" which teaches secular ethics.

But the point is: Wether it is in a private school or in a public one it is supervised by the state. The state can still control that children are taught properly and aren't exposed to an education consisting of hate speech.

 

I don't know at the moment how much seems to go wrong in the American public school system, but wouldn't it be an option for those parents who are afraid that their children fall behind to teach them addionally in the evening? 

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GermanMike wrote: I'm not

GermanMike wrote:
I'm not against private schools, because those can be supervised. In Germany the Catholic Church has by tradition quite a lot of private schools. Those schools are bound to the states curriculum and are regulary supervised. They even have to respect the choice of a student who don't want to have religious education anymore after he turned older than 14 (even against the will of his/her parents).

Generally, in the US, home schooling is held to standards in much the same way as private schools. This varies by state, and some states don't have standards as high as would be ideal.

GermanMike wrote:
That's another specialty of the German school system: Religion is taught as an opt-out subject in all schools. Under 14 the parents can decide wether their child is taught religion (normally catholic or protestant in some German schools also muslim) or not. If they opt-out they are taught in a subject called "Ethik" which teaches secular ethics.

I don't think US schools, public or private, have anything comparable to your 'Ethik'. We assume that parents teach their children ethics. Maybe this is a bad assumption, but the US is a very diverse place with a lot of different beliefs, and a history of parental rights to teach children their beliefs.

I think the need for a class on ethics is a separate discussion.

GermanMike wrote:
But the point is: Wether it is in a private school or in a public one it is supervised by the state. The state can still control that children are taught properly and aren't exposed to an education consisting of hate speech.

I don't think this is necessarily a good thing. Seems a little too undemocratic to me.

And, anyway, if a child's parents are neo-Nazis, don't you think the child will probably be exposed to a fair amount of hate outside school?

GermanMike wrote:
I don't know at the moment how much seems to go wrong in the American public school system, but wouldn't it be an option for those parents who are afraid that their children fall behind to teach them addionally in the evening?

To a limited extent, yes. But considering how much time attending school takes (and how much of that time is really wasted), this is probably not practical for a complete curriculum.

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rexlunae wrote:

rexlunae wrote:


I don't think US schools, public or private, have anything comparable to your 'Ethik'. We assume that parents teach their children ethics. Maybe this is a bad assumption, but the US is a very diverse place with a lot of different beliefs, and a history of parental rights to teach children their beliefs.

I think the need for a class on ethics is a separate discussion.



In Germany we also assume that parents teach their children ethics. But religious education is a normal school subject for those who stay in. If students could opt-out of this without having to do something else, that would be too big of an encouragement. That's the main reason why ethics is taught to those who aren't attending the religious education classes.

rexlunae wrote:


I don't think this is necessarily a good thing. Seems a little too undemocratic to me.

And, anyway, if a child's parents are neo-Nazis, don't you think the child will probably be exposed to a fair amount of hate outside school?



Someone has to make sure that the students receive a certain level of education. Your whole economy would fall behind the rest of the world if a large number of students would receive a bad education.

Democracy doesn't mean that anyone is allowed to to anything. A democratic government has the right and the duty that the democratic values are taught to the next generations. It also has the right to protect the principles of democracy against their enemies. The first German Republic (the Weimar Republic) failed because it was too tolerant of its enemies.

A public education system would also be a help for this child with the two neo-nazi parents. If it weren't for the public school system this child would learn nothing else than those stupidy. I'm not so optimistic that I say the school could compensate everything those neo-nazi parents make it believe, but it could surely help it to critically question its parents worldviews.

rexlunae wrote:


To a limited extent, yes. But considering how much time attending school takes (and how much of that time is really wasted), this is probably not practical for a complete curriculum.



OK, I forgot. In Germany school normally lasts from 8 am until 1:10 pm, which would give parents a lot of time in the afternoon to teach their children. But I actually don't think that your schools are doing so bad that it would need more than the evenings and/or the weekends to compensate the 'mistakes' of the schools.

 

EDIT NOTE: tags corrected

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GermanMike wrote: Mengus22

GermanMike wrote:

Mengus22 wrote:
America has and hopefully always will have an individualist streak in it.

Individualism doesn't develop on itself. It is really hard to imagine how a child, who is just just taught by it's parents and deprived during his/her childhood from all influences clashing with the worldview of his/her parents, can develop into an individualist.

I think the argument against home schooling is just a tease-- the more important question is: should anyone be allowed to have children and raise them as they see fit? I can think of plenty of reasons why my answer would be no.

The funny thing about what you said, that individualism can't develop by itself and it is hard to imagine how... well, I agree, except I am an example of such a thing. I spent my childhood never knowing of atheism, or that there were non-religious people, but I decided for myself by the time I was in preschool that Christianity was man-made. My parents were Lutheran and took me to church as well.

In fact, I seem to have been born an individualist. My father recalls holding me when I was an infant, and that I would attempt to move my hand towards his face. He thought I was being affectionate. My father then says I continued to develop in my infancy, until one day he realized what I had been trying to do: I had finally developed enough strength to smack him in the face. Both of my parents say I didn't like being held and preferred to move on my own.

It doesn't seem like a coincidence then that, as a young child, I observed the behavior of my parents, decided they were not quite that smart, didn't know what they were doing, could not be trusted entirely, and separated myself from them psychologically.

I do not know what resource I had other than my own reasoning to make these decisions.

What we must also note is my sister: She believed in the Christian god since my parents told her about it. Indeed, our childhood environment was the same and yet she turned out to be far less skeptical. I, on the other hand, refused to accept a Biblical coloring book that my father intended to give to me during preschool.

I can only wonder what it means. And no, I was not adopted. Smiling

 


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You do make a good point in

You do make a good point in that it's probably easier for parents to brainwash their children in a homeschooling environment than it would be if those children attended a public school system, but I would personally rather homeschool any future children I might have than let them suffer through the inadequecy of the public school system.

As far as trying to improve the public school system, I'm not really very optimistic about that.  Most of the money that goes into public schools goes to the administrators and the sports programs, so just raising more money would do little to help.  Also, many important concepts like critical thinking skills are largely ignored in favor of memorization of more or less useless information.  Furthermore, trying to generate a political push for curriculum changes doesn't sound very promising when the majority of the voting public chooses to form their beliefs on faith and sermons rather than reason and evidence.

GermanMike wrote:
Individualism doesn't develop on itself. It is really hard to imagine how a child, who is just just taught by it's parents and deprived during his/her childhood from all influences clashing with the worldview of his/her parents, can develop into an individualist.

I strongly disagree.  When I was just 1 or 2 years old, I had already decided (without any outside advice) that my father's authoritarian parenting style was irrational and unreasonable, so I devised a plan and (successfully) converted him to authoritative parenting. 


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GermanMike

GermanMike wrote:

Individualism doesn't develop on itself. It is really hard to imagine how a child, who is just just taught by it's parents and deprived during his/her childhood from all influences clashing with the worldview of his/her parents, can develop into an individualist.

If you want individualist children than you have to expose then (in a protected way) to the worldviews that are out there. Homeschooling is therefor a tool for individualist/egoisitic parents to press their worldviews onto their children and is therefor quite a good example where the individualism of one (there parents) clashes with the individualism of another (the children).

To force those children to go into the word of the public school enables them in the first place to become individualists and not just the image of their parents ideas. 

I was homeschooled and absolutely no one has accused me of not being individualist. As a matter of fact one of my college professors accused me of being "too radically individualist" and also "too happy". My parents took me out of a public school rampant with drug problems and violence. I learned a lot more because my parents taught me to think critically and my father being an excellent debater would play devils advocate with me all the time forcing me to question my own views.

I was exposed to outside views through a homeschool organization that was designed to offer opportunities such as musical education and science classes that some parents might have difficulty teaching. While 90% of my peers were extremely religious I found them to be far more reasonable in religious debate than many people I had debated in public school. They were not your stereotypical fundys although they were very strong in their conviction. At least they were willing to critically argue their positions without screaming in my face that I was going to hell.

When I went to college I found that most of my fellow students were far less individualistic than me or my homeschool friends. They were blind sheep who took whatever the professors said as gospel. One professor went so far as to say that we should ban the automobile and the lackeys were agreeing! My head exploded. Where I could have an honest political or religious debate with the majority of my fellow homeschoolers I found it impossible to have a real debate with more than maybe 5% of the student population in college.

While it is certainly possible that homeschool can be unhealthy in certain families and amount to brainwashing, in my personal experience most homeschoolers are capable of thinking far more critically than most people who go to public school. They also tend to be more disciplined and have a higher respect for a quality education. Granted, all I really have is anecdotal evidence but unless you have some studies or statistics I think your claims go way to far. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Those experiences are

Those experiences are suprising, especially if I hear that some people were indiviualists from the very beginning. Maybe there are some born individualists. On the other hand is that I don't be able to really judge the American public schools.

I didn't say that it would help a school system to simply give it more money. That would be naive to believe. If you want change than it would have to be supervised as well.

I also don't think that giving a lot of money to sports is a bad thing as long as it is balanced by the money that is spent for other purposed. Sports - especially team sports - is ideal to form a sense of solidarity and social networks that is needed to keep a society running.

Those social networks among your peers from the public schools might also be the reason why those seem less indivualistic than you are. Individualism doesn't need to run against society - if it does it can quite quickly degenerate into egoism - in most cases it runs with it. In the sense that those people found their place in society they are most happy with.

The debating skills really depend on the teacher and the culture which is lived in the school. At this point, again, I can just speak for Germany. Over here in the 'sciences of mind' like German, social-education, history or religiou-education discussion was always encouraged. Even in natural sciences when we were talking in biology about issus like sex-education discussion was encouraged and welcomed.

If this isn't the case in the public schools in America than there need to be a concious raising campaign because parents simply shouldn't be indifferent about these important issues. 

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America holds very dearly

America holds very dearly to the idea of leaving as much freedom as possible in the hands of the individual. Of course people aren't allowed to do absolutely anything they please, but in general the view is to try to fall on the side of too much freedom as opposed to too little.

In this view, it is generally held that parents should be allowed to raise their children as they see fit. Of course there are limitations; if you starve your child it will necessarily be taken from you. However, until it can be demonstrated that home schooling a child is bad for that child, there will be no way to support an argument that parents should be forced to send their children to school.

I'm not an expert on the subject, but I believe that current studies suggest home schooled children are not disadvantaged, either socially or academically.