The Golden Compass
Offline This is my firsts port... I just joined. I have always been a sort of "live and let live" athiest, not seeing the point in trying to argue with irrational people about something that doesn't exist. It was only after watching Prof. Dawkins' documentory, "The root of all evil", that I realised that just because I wasn't looking for a fight the other side would leave me alone. Here is an example of why I have decided to become more aggresive as an atheist.
My eldest child is aged 4 and attends a play school. We often find little notes and flyers in her bag after school, but the one I found yesterday made my blood boil. The heading in big, bold letters said: "Because you care about your children - PLEASE TAKE HEED!". No, I don't know how many other South Africans are on here, but warnings about possible dangers, usually related to crime and violence, are quite common. All attentive parents tend to "TAKE HEED" when these warnings are issued. I am an attentive parent, so I sat down and started reading the letter, giving it my undevided attention.
"DON'T LET YOUR KIDS SEE 'THE GOLDEN COMPASS'", was the next line. "Huh?", I thought. "Let us stop this movie dead in its tracks!!!", the letter exclaime. It is worthwhile to inject here that I AM an attentive parent. I do not let my children watch films that I have not seen. I am completely apposed to any type of censorship, because I feel it is the responsibility of parents to be attentive and decide for themselves what their children should and should not see. "If ou don't like it, then don't watch it! But why stop ME from watching it?!". That's my viewpoint. Now I'll carry on...
So by this time I am already suspicious of this letter, but I proceed. "There will be a new children's movie out in December called "The Golden Compass". This movie has been described as 'atheism for kids" and is based on the first book of a trilogy entitled 'His Dark Materials' that was written by Phillip Pullman. Pullman is a militant atheist and secular humanist who despises C.S.Lewis and the 'Chronicals of Narnia'."
My first thought was: "Oooo! Atheism for kids, hey? I wonder if I can pre-order it on Amazon?". But seriously... go read up on Phillip Pullman. I think he belongs on your "friends" wall.
Christians have been force-feeding us god-flavored dung for ages, but let one film be made that shows the opposite side of the coin they are up in arms. So why didn't I get a warning letter when "Chronicals of Narnia" came out? I can see it now: "This film has religious undertones and contains many similarities to the bible. Let's stand together and make sure this filth never sees the light of day!"
Now, my major concern is about what to do next. I am extremely tempted to go to the school and say things like: "You offend me with this religious propoganda. How dare you assume that I have the same belief system as you?", and "If I wanted spiritual guidance or advice about raising children I will find it somewhere else. I pay you to look after my kids while I'm at work. Do that, and don't bother me with this type crap again."
I would love to do that, because I AM angry. But how would they treat my daughter afterwards? Now suddenly I can no longer jsut be worried about discrimination against me, but also against my children. This is unacceptable! I am furious that Christianity and religion has been accepted as the status quo, and that alternatives are not considered. It's like tomato: I hate tomato, I really do. Bu tomato is such a "standard" ingredient that is not even mentioned anymore. Whenever I order a sandwitch descibed as a "Chicken, Bacon and Cheese" at a local deli, I have to specify: "No tomato, please.". Why is that? If it's got tomato on it, then call it a "Chicken, Bacon, Cheese and Tomato", or leave the bloody tomato off! I digress a bit, but this seemingly trivial problem that I face on a daily basis has the same roots as problems I experience as an atheist: People's inability to even CONSIDER THE POSSIBILITY that someone is not exactly like then. The next step of actually ACCEPTING that somebody is not exactly like them can therefore never be achieved.
Anyway, it was this letter, and its potential influance on my children, that prompted me to look for fellow free thinkers. I found this site. I went forth and vented. Hopefully you'll see a lot more of me here. Any "Mortal Kombat" players? I swear, when I read that letter I could here a deep, droning voice shout: "FIGHT!". The gloves are off.
Atheism: My licence to sleep in on Sundays.
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I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes the hit movie for the Christmas period, all the negativity from the Christians only brings the movie more to the attention of everybody.
I don't usually go to the movies myself, but I'll be going to see it just to get the numbers up.
: Freedom - The opportunity to have responsibility.
: Liberty is about protecting the right of others to disagree with you.
I am curious about a few things a) the movie is suppose to remove some of the more "raunchy" anti-religious overtones. b) how in fucks sake does it promote atheism? by saying the catholic church is a tyrannical big brotherish thing? I am unsure how that promotes atheism. c) Maybe the kids would be more enlightened if they saw a movie about atheism, fuck obviously the parents who are making such an uproar about it sure could use it. Also, isn't this a fanasy movie? and thus should be considered ficition anyway?
ON a more personal note, i will be seeing it, if it hadn't been for the controversy it has cause i'd probably never have heard of it, if its a good movie i may just have to thank the christians for getting me interested. It does actually sound like a pretty good movie with lots of cool fanasy things in it.
Yeah, actually the books are "Gnosticism for Kids." God exists, but he's not who you thought.
Supposedly the movie toned down the Gnostic underpinning by making the Magisterium (i.e. the Catholic Church) the bad guys and leaving out the book's references to the Authority (the Demiurge). So now it's just as anti-Catholic as the books, but less anti-Christian overall.
"After Jesus was born, the Old Testament basically became a way for Bible publishers to keep their word count up." -Stephen Colbert
I had never heard of the movie until my local atheist meetup group wanted to get everyone together to go see it.
I checked out the trailer online and didn't see any hint of religion anywhere. I had assumed the Catholic league was up in arms because the movie had witches in it. Kinda like how they hate Harry Potter so much.
I always love hearing about the open minded people warning others that something has an atheistic undertone and should be avoided at all costs!! hehehe.
On another note... I got a huge kick out of your tomato rant as I myself hate tomatos and it's evil cousin the pepper as well. Everyone thinks I'm the pickiest eater in the world but it's mostly because those two items are in almost everything! This is why I joined the reformed church of Alfredo.
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan
about your tomato rant (seems we sould start another thread) i have that problem plus i diss like peppers plus i dislike onions . Oninons are literally in everything. I some times just have to stomach them.
Just let me add my welcome tothe others.
I can't really advise you on how to raise your child, I do know a few books have been written on the subject, specifically for atheists. If you`d like to know more I can dig them up or some nice person who remembers can post that info for you.
Who is putting those flyers in your kids bag anyway? Maybe you can get them to stop?
Morte alla tyrannus et dei
I hadn't really taken any ineterst in this movie or book either. I don't have alot of time for recreational reading lately, so it just flew under the radar as another fantasy novel for kids being made into a movie.
Then I got the an email from both my family and the secretary at work in almost the exact same words as that take home letter warning me that there was a movie for children that was trying to "indoctrinate our children with atheist values". For shame that anyone would use a movie to indoctrinate children *coughnarniacough*. The emails went on past the spammed note on the evil Pullman and his atheism for kids to have the personal attachments about how shameful it is that an atheist of all people would try to make a movie that children would watch... what happens if they learn from it?!
So now that I've been warned about this evil atheist movie and book series, my partner and I are taking the logical action... pre-ordering our tickets and trying to set aside some time to read the books.
The Regular Expressions of Humanistic Jones: Where one software Engineer will show the world that God is nothing more than an undefined pointer.
That actually sounds like grounds for a lawsuit. A public school sending out messages like that attacking a movie b/c it favors one point of view on religion and not another? In all honesty, I would sue them. I know it sounds like a big step, and it is, but it would make a statement. Im pretty sure the ACLU would help, and the Freedom from Religion Foundation. But then there is your kid to consider. It's a tough call. I personally can't wait to go see the movie. I hear in the books they kill god or something.
It's an awful lot of hysteria about a film nobody has seen based on a book series that's geared towards teens/young adults, not children. And Pullman is not a militant atheist (I fucking hate when people put that adjective in front of "atheist" - we're not a heavily-armed militia for fuck's sake) - if you read any interview with him, he puts himself somewhere between atheist and agnostic.
Nobody I know was brainwashed into being an atheist.
Why Believe?
He's in South Africa. The ACLU (definitely) and the FFRF (I'm pretty sure) only operate in the US. I happen to be a member of both.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
Hi all,
Thanks for the guys giving advice... and the guys who share my hatred of the red fruit that shall not be named.
Yes, in South Africa I will be hard pressed to find an organization willing to take up this kind of fight. The school is also a private playschool... my daughter is only 4. I don't think they even fall under standard educational guidelines.
Look, nobody is teaching my children anything that I disaprove of at the school, so I have no reason to pull them out of there or anything. This flier was just the personal vendetta of one of the teachers... and that is what I have the gripe with.
Perhaps I should take the subtle approach: buy a whole lot of copies of the books and donate them to the school.
Or start a little playgroup at my house for after school, and then read it to them. 
Either way, my daughter's going to the "big" school next year, so I probably won't do anything. I have asked some of the other parents what they thought, and most only realised there was something wrong with the letter after I expressed my opinion. Most then agreed, but it really annoys me that so few people give any thought whatsoever to what idots throw at them.
Topic for another thread I suppose... that and the evilo red fruit thing.
Atheism: My licence to sleep in on Sundays.
Yeah, not to give anything away, but God is actually a character in the books.
This is why I can't understand why anybody would label these books "Atheist." The book depicts God, angels, devils, and otherworldy realms like heaven/hell. I would think an "atheist" book would depict a world where these things *don't* exist.
"After Jesus was born, the Old Testament basically became a way for Bible publishers to keep their word count up." -Stephen Colbert
I haven't read the books either, but aren't the characters of God, angels, the "church", etc. cast as the bad guys?
If so, that's enough for Christian groups to call the books atheist. That, plus the author isn't a believer.
Nobody I know was brainwashed into being an atheist.
Why Believe?
I have to say, I think I'm gonna go out and buy this book now.
TAKE THAT JEEBUS
I hadn't even heard of the movie. But now you've peaked my interest. I'll probably go see it. But back off the tomato hate talk you tomato-ist.
Frosty's coming back someday. Will you be ready?
I take my burgers without pickles, so I'm really getting a kick out of some of these replies.
That said, I'll probably go see Golden Compass, just to piss off the Religious Reich.
Seriously, these are the same people who got their panties in a bunch over The DaVinci Code - a book and subsequent movie that expressly stated that it was a work of fiction and that any resemblance between the persons and events depicted, and actual persons (living or dead) or events was purely coincidental and unintentional. Which means that if Dan Brown was right about Jesus, it was by accident.
Good night, funny man, and thanks for the laughter.
Hey, we all know that fundies are about the most narrow-minded prigs in the universe. If you think about it fundamentalism requires a lack of reason. All most of them need is to see a movie trailer they fail to understand or have some preacher make some moronic claim and they pick up their pitchforks and torches and start looking for godless infidels to burn at the stake. In this case the author seems to be disliked by a number of xtian groups and that's all it takes.
Pullman is a humanist though I don't know that he is an atheist. He is at least agnostic. He's definitely not fond of religion and the control it maintains over people. His books and this movie are about this aspect of religion and the "evils" it brings to society.
I have to laugh at the fundies when they start doing crap like this. They always think they're going to scare people away from movies but it always works the opposite. Case in point is a low budget porn flick in the late sixties they got all up in arms about called "Deep Throat." Had they kept their mouths shut it would have gone unnoticed. Once they started their campaign it made almost as much money as any mainstream movie.
What I find troubling about the note you found in your daughter's bag is the attempt to influence children who are not their own. You've talked to others who seem to support your position, and since your daughter will be changing schools soon, I would go ahead and speak to the "teacher's" supervisor or the operator of the day care. They should be concerned that an employee is attempting to influence children and foisting their belief system on clients.
By the way, I got a kick out of your rant on tomatoes. Very well done. Although I must admit, I love tomatoes and the hotter the peppers are the better I like 'em.
Good luck, and don't back down.
"Erecting the 'wall of separation between church and state,' therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society." Thomas Jefferson
www.myspace.com/kenhill5150
Tomatoists Unite!!! There is no tomato, there is no tomato! - that's me praying to the great purple anti-tomato in the sky.
Yeah... the fight's getting bigger. I have now received the same warning via e-mail from a supperior at work, and from a family member.
Thanks for all the advice. I have decided not to react to this directly. I have a plan growing in the back of my head to bring the local atheist community together in a more public way (i.e. not meeting secretly in somebody's basement), and for that I need to stay under the radar for a bit... don't want to give away the surprise!
Just to make sure of my daughter I have had a few talks with her and I'm still happy that we are on track. No fundies comming out of MY family!
Atheism: My licence to sleep in on Sundays.
Well dammit. I logged on tonight to post my own topic about this very subject, but I guess I'm two steps behind. (Not unusual for me).
I've been hearing about the movie for a while, and my fundie parents are already complaining about it and saying that kids aren't supposed to go and see it. It makes me laugh the way they talk about it. It's like they're hiding their children from the gestapo or something. Hurry! Put them in the attic! The atheists are coming!
The straw that broke the camel's back for me, though, was just earlier tonight when my own roommate sent me an invitation to a Facebook group titled Do NOT Support The Golden Compass!!!
I sent him a wall post explaining that I've already read the first two books and am just starting the third, and I think they are really great, addicting books.
I wasn't a dick about it, but I was hoping to point out to him that he's protesting a movie he's never seen based on the opinion of an online community in which not one person has seen the movie either. They don't even know what they're protesting. All they know is that someone heard from their mom's friend's neighbor's sister's boss's niece's teacher's second cousin that someone kills God in the third book WHICH ISN'T EVEN THE BOOK THE MOVIE IS BASED ON.
And what is the protest anyway? I looked at the group, and there are posted articles from newspapers and magazines. Among the claims I saw there was the following:
"Christians bellieve that the upcoming movie is a ploy to introduce children to atheism".
That one sentence makes me want to scream.
1. So a movie that isn't openly atheist but only has an anti-religious sentiment toward the God of a fictional world (we could call it Catholicism at best) is a "ploy" to convert all children to atheism and should be avoided at all costs.
2. However, a movie that is openly and flauntingly pro-christianity is not a "ploy" to introduce children to Christianity. It's just a movie! Kids can make their own decisions!
3. So therefore, clearly, kids can make up their own minds whether or not to believe in God, but they are only allowed to watch pro-Christian movies and are not allowed to watch movies that only suggest (but don't actually argue for!!!!) any opposing viewpoints.
If Christianity is so right and atheism is so wrong, then let the kid make up his own fucking mind. He has a brain. He doesn't need you to do his thinking for him (or her). You are the brainwasher here---not the atheists.
Read if you want to read a good book.
Watch it if it seems like a good movie.
The next Christian who asks me to boycott this film is getting kicked square in the balls. (Or punched in the booby, as the case may be).
Oops, I guess I'm only talking like that because I'm a violent atheist because I read Philip Pullman's books and now I'm a corrupted, angst-filled youth because Iorek was a badass and he wasn't in the second book and that made me so mad I wanted to kill God for not making Philip Pullman put him in there somewhere but God isn't real so all I can do is write these really long run-on sentences which don't help at all!
I better get a grip on myself before a child hears me and becomes brainwashed because children are apparently not capable of thought.
A place common to all will be maintained by none. A religion common to all is perhaps not much different.
As always, it seems to be the fundies protesting something they have not taken the time to watch or read. They always listen to others who may or may not have read or seen the story and take that as gospel
.
I've read of several mainstream theists who have and do not have a problem with children seeing it. But, of course, ignorance and hysteria wins out every time with the fundies. Good luck with your plan.
"Erecting the 'wall of separation between church and state,' therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society." Thomas Jefferson
www.myspace.com/kenhill5150
I would just like to thank all the uptight religious nitwits who are crying about this movie. If it wasn't for them I would have completely disregarded this movie, which looks quite good. If there hadn't been such an outcry, I wouldn't have gone online to research the trilogy and its author. I wouldn't have gone out and bought the series either. I've only started reading a little bit and it's really quite good. I'd recommend it to anyone.
If god takes life he's an indian giver
Ditto. I only bought the book because the Christians are bitching about it. They piqued my curiosity. I'm glad they did, though, because all three books are great. Well, the first two are good. I'm only three chapters into the third, but it's pretty sweet already.
But still... MORE IOREK!!!! I miss his bad assery. =(
This is the same thing David Mills talks about in AU when he writes about internet porn. Kids probably wouldn't look for it so often if parents weren't so adamant about forbidding it.
It's the "Don't Push The Red Button" situation.
Most people push it. *shrug*
Christians lose. Again.
A place common to all will be maintained by none. A religion common to all is perhaps not much different.
My advice to Johannes would be to let this slide for now. As you say, your daughter will be going to another school next year; no need to take the chance of her being discriminated against.
As for me, I saw the trailers in the theater and wasn't too inclined to see the film, then I heard about the controversy. If the catholic league doesn't want my 8 year old son to see this film, I will be taking him on opening day! I only wish the studio had not decided to water down the anti catholic, anti religion themes in the film.
As a side note, I cannot eat anything with tomato in it.
A couple of weeks ago I got "the email" via a yahoo homeschool group I belonged to. Same wording as your note. My reaction was much as you--Johannes--described you wanted to do. I promptly sent off an impassioned missive of my own where I made it clear that I did not welcome other adults admonishing me about what my entertainment choices should be. I also sternly voiced objection to the censorhip they were trying to coerce on the impulsive gullibles that would receive "the email"--or the notes.
My response was not well received. One of the first challengers claimed to be an atheist herself. To sum up, she implied that I was intolerant and mean. Irony anyone?
On the tangent topic, I love tomatoes. Eat them out of hand like the friut that they are. I love peppers, pickles and onions too. A burger is not a burger without lettuce, tomato, pickle and onion.
I'm hungry now!
Anyway, my son and I are looking forward to seeing this movie. I might even buy the books. Than donate them to the library.
Too bad stupidity isn't poisonous.