Death of my cat, I need to vent about god believer's logic.
Offline Ok guys, I just really need to vent right now.
Before I do I want to make it clear to theist reading this that this is ABOUT THE CLAIM "ALL POWERFULL" AND "ALL LOVING".
The following argument is based on:
1. Believer, " I claim x atribute about y deity"
2. Atheist, "Ok, I hear your claim, but here is the problem I have with x atribute about y deity"
My best friend of 8 years I discoverd was feeling ill when I got home he progressively got worse over an 11 hour period. In retrospect what I thought was a mere tummy ache was deadly, only the autopsy will tell. It could have been the final stages of cancer. 5 months ago he had a lump removed. But the vet said it could have been anything.
REGARDLESS. Here is my problem with the claim "all loving" and "all powerfull" (keep in mind that I dont believe in a deity AT ALL. I am merely saying if one were to postulate that deity position for the sake of argument)
11 hours, from the time I got home to the time he died. I only realized this AFTER he died because I mistook his normal grouchyness to strangers being in the house. Then I mistook his pain as being a mere tummy ache. In retrospect I would have taken him to the vet emediately if I hadnt made those missjudgements.
But if one is taking the position that a deity exists. What did my cat do to deserve an "all loving" "all powerfull" deity sitting back and watching MY CAT suffer in pain for 11 hours.
"Test" is what you get from some theists. WHO? JUST WHO THE FUCK IS HE TESTING? ME? Ok, FINE ASSSHOLE, then give me the illness if you are pissed at me, WHAT THE FUCK DID MY CAT DO TO DISERVE 11 HOURS OF PAIN?
My anger is not at a fictional being. My anger is at the insistance of people using twisted immoral logic to justify belief in this fictional being. THIS LOGIC PISSES ME OFF!
If you found out that an NFL player was torturing dogs.......oh wait......someone did step and stop it...and it was humans NOT SUPERMAN VS KRIPTONITE
My point is simple, the logic of "all powerfull" and "all loving" is crap as an argument and completely immoral when it comes to a defensless cat who did no one any harm whatsoever.
So why did he suffer? Not because of a divine plan. Not because an alleged God was testing me. He died because he had some fatal illness(hopefully to be determined by the autopsy)
It is insulting to my cat's suffering and insulting to me to postulate that a magical puppiter had anything to do with my cat or me.
So if for arguments sake only one assumes the deity position, THAT DIETY IS A PRICK who has the alleged power to "POOF" end suffering before it begins BUT CHOSES NOT TO?
WHAT THE FUCK WOULD OR COULD A DOMESTIC CAT DO TO DESERVE OR ALLOW SUFFERING FOR 11 HOURS!
That would be like hiring a bank security guard who says, "I can stop all bank roberries all the time.......but will only do so when I feel like it"
That would be like hireing a baby sitter who said, "I have the absolute ability to stop all child molesters...but will only do so when I feel like it"
I wouldnt hire a vet who said, "I have pleanty of rabies vaccine for all animals who come here.....but I will only give it to whom I feel like".
It is not the theist that I hate, nor the fictional being they believe in. It is the twisted logic they use to justify such beliefs.
IF THE THEIST CLAIMS X"ALL POWERFULL"
Then FOR ARUGMENTS SAKE ONLY......that claimed alleged deity I would consider an immoral prick.
I needed to bitch right now because I know what the reality is about my cat. He died from a natural illness void of hocus pokus or magical sky daddy string pullers in the sky.
Reality sucks sometimes. Meteors hitting planets, hurricains, eboli, crime are unfortunate and bad parts of life, but are explained with natural causes void of Superman vs kriptonite.
Just because something is natural doesnt mean we want it affecting us. My cats death was natural. But certainly it had affected him and affected me and it was bad. But I dont incert superman vs kriptonite claims of God vs Satan to explain death, even that of my cat.
He did nothing wrong and still he suffered. But he suffered for natural, NOT SUPER NATURAL causes. It sucks, I lost my best friend for 8 years. But I will not bow to superstition for comfort.
My comfort comes from knowing that I had him and all the fun times with him and his loyalty. No superstion or magic needed to explain the obvious, be it good or bad.
IN LOVING MEMORY OF PAYTON..........I WILL ALWAYS REMEMBER HIM!
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
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Yeah, I had a cousin that got testicle cancer and died two months after the prognosis at the age of 21.
But jesus loved him.
What BS.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
The universe is a cold heartless place with no interest in its inhabitiants
The only good or evil, love or hate in it is what people bring into it.
To say a fictional fairy is watching over you is moral cowardice, which is basically what theists are cowards who can't face reality
I wouldnt call them cowards, not in the "club mentality sense". If one takes a position and believes in their head that this is the only right way, they will do anything to replicate their behaivor to make more success for their label. This is the missfire that Dawkins talks about.
They are not cowards in the the sense that the fight for what they believe. They are intellectuall cowards in the sense that they never consider introspection , they never consider examining the claims they baught to insure quality control.
In other words, it is easyer for them to FIGHT for the club, than it is to consider that they are wrong.
Letting go of the ego is something the species has yet to overcome. It is the fight mechinism that makes belief in ancient superstion possible to believe in today.
I think that Christian warriors are as brave as Muslim warriors are as Jewish warriors and as brave as Native Americans and as brave as Soviet soldiers. They all fight for what they believe. In that sense they are not cowards.
But humans,far to often think in terms of black and white insted of shades of grey, and that causes missfires in dicision making. Anyone can be phyisically brave to save a club member. But that only benifits the club, not the species. It takes intelectual braveness to question oneself to insure that one is not clinging to a missfire.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
I'm very sorry to hear about your cat. I have a cat myself. He's a bit of an anti-social food-eating machine, but he has his friendly moments and they're well worth waiting for. I've only had him for a year, but I couldn't imagine my life without him...
At least in relation to Christianity. The Bible pretty much says that no animals will get a chance at life after death. So the animals are simply things to keep us company and exploit, if possible, through nourishing us or getting us from place to place. The animals don't have souls, yet they feel pain. A raw deal, indeed.
I just wish more young Children whom are being indoctrinated will be told exacly what their Bible says about where their pets are going. I've been lied to about the goldfish of my youth - my Catholic parents sayinf they're going the "Goldfish Heaven". Maybe I would have started thinking for myself at a younger age if I knew differently...
Just to point out, I'm not bitter about my Catholic upbringing. I'm just glad I know enough about it to keep away from it at all costs!
So my best friend of 8 years was a prop? He was just a decoration for my amusement?
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Sorry to hear about your kitty Brian.
Actually, you can wangle any meaning you want from the Bible, so long as it suits yourself. Just search "Where does my pet go when it dies?" and see for yourself all the conflicting views.
I think the default Christian perspective is that animals do not go to heaven as JC only died for humans, and the fact that animals don't have souls. Really comforting, eh? Well, at least the owner earns eternal bliss!
If there are any Christians here, here's a question: How can heaven be eternal bliss when you still have memories of pets of which you may never see again? Perhaps you had a good friend who never made it to heaven; Wouldn't you feel very bad for getting into heaven while your friend rots away in hell?
EDIT: Sorry. I forgot that this is FA. Plus, sorry to seemingly hijack your thread, Brian.
I understand that Christians will try to excape this paradox with mental gymanstics. Meanwhile my cat is still dead and I am still in pain and he still did not deserve it.
But as I said, he died for natural causes void of bearded men in the sky intervention or lack of intervention on claimed deity's part.
With the hocus pokus in play, it makes my cat's death cruel. Take out the hocus pokus and the reality is that death happens and doesnt require magical intervention.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Hey mate i do feel you pain and frustration
Religion/Theists are like a old old box of moldy candy that your kid left sitting in the car in the hot sun too long. The results are imposiable to stomic and imposiable to make heads or tails of what it used to be.
Basically irrational fear mongers who delight in making others as miserable as they are.
Fuck them man.. Its not worth your mental health to dwell on these tards at a time like this. I wish i could tell you everything would be ok about your cat etc but in reality nothing anyone says will take away your pain.
I know about pain from loss.. I know that pain well .. All too well. And their is nothing anyone can say. Eventualy the pain will lessen but it will never go away . You will allways remember your cat/loved ones.
My only advice is to think of the positive times the good times when you and your cat were happy. Just don't focus on the pain .. Focus on the good times.
I wish someone had given me this advice a couple years ago when my father died. It might... Might have changed the way i handled his death.
My mother has always said that what matters most is your relationship with your loved ones.
To paraphrase "Atheist Universe," One child being abucted, raped and tortured to death in all human history eliminates the possibility of an all-knowing, all powerful, all-god (or at all god) being. If the God of the Buybull is real, he's a real asshat piece of shit (and by his description in that asshat book he makes Adolph Hitler look like Ghandi.)
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
If I may summarize your point in short, then your question is:
How can an all powerful and all loving god allow the existence of suffering.
I had some debates with theists about exactly that subject, which is also called a "theodicy".
All answers by theists can basically be put into one of two categories:
1. It is part of gods plan. God wants the cat to suffer and you to be pissed about it. It all serves a higher plan, that we humans with our limited conciousness might not be able to see.
2. God suffers with the cat. In the garden of eden was no suffering. Suffering was brought into existance by <x>. And therefor suffering exists. But since god is everywhere and god is omniscient, he suffers with you/the cat.
for x insert: (Free will of mankind, Satan, fruit from the tree of knowledge, Adam and Eves disobedience, and so on...)
Both answers are not really satisfying to me, because in the first case, then there is simply the question why god can't achieve his plan without the infliction of suffering? Is he not powerful enough for that? In the second case, gods love seems to be of a sadistic/masochistic nature. And I have to say: "No thanks, that kind of love is not really my cup of tea."
Today at work, a co worker whom I love, who was trying to console me said, "At least he is in a better place".
WHAT THE FUCK? Right now he has been frozen awaiting shipment via FED X to the state vet medical examinor. I'd prefure that he didnt die and that he were curled up next to me right now. Better place?
What was it like for him before he was born? The same thing it is now. What happend between nothing and nothing is better and that was something.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Sorry to hear about the loss of your friend Payton. You gave him a good life.
I agree. The god of the bible is a perverted murderer.
Frosty's coming back someday. Will you be ready?
Like the cop on the moffia's payroll, willing to look the other way as long as you pay him enough protection money.
(if one is postulating a diety then my response to such a deity would be)Thanks for taking my best friend daddy. If you were in front of me right now I'd kick you square in the nuts!
But,(here is reality) I cant kick you in the nuts because you dont exist. So my cat died because of a natural illness, it sucks, but thats part of life.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Here is something else I heard today, "He is up in kitty heaven chasing birds". GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK! Why does every sad moment in life have to be used as an advertisment for a religious club?
I have been having my ins and out boughts of crying. I'll be fine one minute and then something will trigger and I will ball. Most of the day today I was simply quiet and reflective. I kept busy and that does help some. But hate the silence because it reminds me how empty my room is without my cat purring or playing with me.
I went to the vet today and picked up my carrier. I lost it at that point. I am going to buy some pet suppies and donate it to an animal chairity in his memory.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Never forgot that God has been created in man's image.
I can relate. My cat died last April 30th from kidney failure. He was sick for three weeks. He was only 8 years old. I kept thinking he was going to recover but he just got worse. I have two new cats now and I love them both but I still miss Sammy. He was a very affectionate cat.
In a couple of days the crying will probably ease up but the happy memories will remain. A year from now you'll still think of him several times a day.
Frosty's coming back someday. Will you be ready?
ERm............. Ok i can see your remark 2 ways and i don't want to jump the gun here.
Are you a theist ?
For what its worth, I am sorry about your cat. I am an avid animal lover who has, previously, and currently has boxers. When my fisrt one died I was devistated. My current baby is like a kid to me. She is the most gorgeous mahogany boxer I have ever seen,with the softest fur EVER. Its going to kill me when she dies one day.
So, I am really sorry.
I don't want to offend you, but seriously:
Just for the case the unspeakable happens, have you considered making some gloves out of her then?
funny.... Maybe I should have stuffed parts of my human family that died.
[MODERATOR'S NOTE: This is the one public forum section where theists are not allowed to post. Theist posts to be deleted at our discretion.]
I know someone who did something like this when her beloved rabbit was suddenly killed. It's a pretty tacky thing to interject here, though.
That's fucked up.
Frosty's coming back someday. Will you be ready?
I *hate* this line. It really pisses me off when theists say this even if they think you're a believer. It's almost an insult - as if getting treats from you, his belly rubbed or just your love in general wasn't good enough.
I'm so sorry for you Brian. I think it's really awesome that you're making a donation for homeless cats though. It means much more than all these bull shit lines people give you for you to do something to enable other cats to get a loving home like you gave your little guy.
If you want to make a monetary donation here is a good place I donated to before:
http://www.alleycat.org
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
I agree. A donation is a generous and loving thing to do.
But even as much as we hate to hear stupid stuff like "At least he's in a better place," these people are actually trying to be sympathetic and comforting. It's just their way of trying to help us feel better.
Frosty's coming back someday. Will you be ready?
That's kinda my point though... unless these random people know kitty had a life of suffering and pain (which it doesn't sound that was the case here) then that statement is an insult. It would be better to say "Well I'm gald he had a great life with you while he was here... or what not" but instead were here these generic lines which make me wonder if the speaker really is trying to be comforting or just on auto-pilot.
Last year my Rottweiler of 11 years died of a variety of degenerative ailments, and he had been in pain and barely able to move for a couple months beforehand...at the end he couldn't even stop himself from spontaneously urinating wherever he happened to lay, and he had the saddest, most pained expression on his face that I've ever seen on a non-human, it was really awful. When my parents finally had him euthanized, I took relief by saying to myself "Well, at least he's not in pain anymore" - I think that's a much better consolation than imaging my dog in some bizarre field-in-the-sky where he will chase small animals for untold eons of time for no particular reason, as Christian sentimentalists will often tell children is the fate of departed pets.
Death is an important part of life, like a bookend, it's what defines all living things. It's sad when a person or an animal companion dies unusually early, but in the long run, everyone and everything alive is going to die, so it's best to gieve the loss and move on and treasure the happy memories. Exacerbating your pain by arguing with friends or co-workers who champion the cause of "kitty heaven" might not be the most productive behavior, even if it seems satisfying at the time.
The lesson of history is that we do not learn the lessons of history.
ERROR
Me a theist? Eh eh eh... No, I am not.
I meant that men created God, do you see what I mean?