Could astronomy spell the end of religion?
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So what happens when/if we do run into an Alien civilization?
Is astronomy the next target of evangelist?
If Jesus was born today he would be institutionalized as a schizophrenic with delusions of grandeur.
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Depends on the nature of this contact. There are two possibilities, either friendly or hostile. If it is the latter, religion will become the least of our worries
He was one of those men who think that the world can be saved by writing a pamphlet. - Benjamin Disraeli
"Is astronomy the next target of evangelist?"
~ When the time comes they will think of somethin' ....
, fixing the tv ,world wide, would sure help things, when are we gonna get really pissed ?
Atheism Books.
Hmmm Scientology and Raelianism become the dominant religions? Eh just a guess...
"I, on the other hand, do not feel it necessary to construct a lofty meaning for myself. I prefer the style of the butterfly myself. I will eat what I want, flit about aimlessly, and enjoy the sunshine. Then, I will die. " - Nero, RRS Forum User
If alien life does in fact exist and is at a point where it can make contact with us (and vice versa), there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the words of the bible will be twisted to match if not even predict this happening and somehow back up the claims that theists make. After all, it is the inerrant UNCHANGABLE word of god.
Organised religion is the ultimate form of blasphemy.
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I think it is most likely that a more advanced species would come here peacefully to observe us and wait until we are worthy of making contact with. Of course there is a chance they will come in search of a planet to inhabit, or raw materials. Any material on earth can probably be found in more abundance other places though. I think it would be more likely that is we are attacked by aliens it would be because galactic politics we do not understand, where we just happened to be a pawn in a much larger war.
Anyway, that was way off topic.
I agree with thingy, and I have said it many times before. Every time religion has been proven wrong by science, religion has changed so it can stay alive. I do think it will decrease the percentage of religious people though.
My best guess is humans won't live that long. From what we know of the universe in our immediate vicinity (that is, the area that is remotely feasible to traverse, given incredibly advanced propulsion and the willingness to spend centuries in space and the ability to deflect or absorb incredible amounts of cosmic radiation which we must assume to be fatal to all organic life) there is little chance that humans will ever meet aliens.
However, if we do, the Christians will be ready. Though some might lose faith, there are passages in the bible that are vague enough that they'll be interpreted as God telling us about aliens thousands of years in the past.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Frank Sinatra - Fly Me to the Moon http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rAsoLm1Ges
WE are the center of the cosmos, It was made for us, by us, we own the place , WE are the nitty gritty, everyone can relax now .... I mean should ....
.... what's the hurry? Where ya wanna be ?
yeah yeah, somewhere free from religion ....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnnqhY-IyIE
from an old fella ! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EiDCUnPGQ18
, couldn't find a worthy fav, by the great Tony Bennett
Atheism Books.
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Actually we have a general idea of the type of propulsion systems we need to travel through space at incredible speeds. Speeds that would allow us to reach some very distant places in our own galaxy, places that would take decades with combustible fuel propulsion would take days or weeks. The main thing holding us back is money.
The radiation would be a problem but take into account human technological advancement in the past 50 years. The rate at which we advance is speeding up thanks to computer. We have no reason to think that travel within our own galaxy will not be possible in 30-40 years. Also the blackhole theory provided by Einstein decades before black holes were discovered also suggests to possibility of wormhole travel. He was right about the existence of blackholes so even a theory of wormhole travel holds some weight. There is also extensive study on faster than light travel trying to find a loophole of sorts.
Now consider that we (Earth) are about 4 billion years old and the universe is at our best estimate at least 15 billion years old. Some other planets have had 11 billion years longer than us to evolve. So it stands to reason that they have had an extra 11 billion years to figure out what we are on the verge of figuring out now. In other words it is highly likely that there are at least a few alien civilizations zipping through space at the moment.
Also running into a space ship is not the only way to make contact. In an atmosphere similar to ours it is likely they use some of the same or similar data transportation methods. We could pick-up some Alien television signal millions of years old finally reaching us.
P.S. I am not a nut who believe in UFO sightings. The belief in the existence of alien civilizations is widely held. Just in case some of you are thinking that I go to UFO conventions or something.
If Jesus was born today he would be institutionalized as a schizophrenic with delusions of grandeur.
Are you talking about the ion drives that could reach Mars in about a week?
Problem 1: Travelling through the galaxy is not like travelling through Montana. In Montana, if you need to pull over and change the water in the radiator, you can pick any old cow pasture with a pond. In space, if you don't know precisely where you're going, you're fucked.
Problem 2: Again, suppose you find what you think is a (Star Trek Reference) Class M planet with your telescopes. You send a ship there, and it takes a hundred years. You get there, and you find out it's primordial with a poisonous atmosphere. You're fucked.
Problem 3: Days or weeks to take us places that would take decades with combustibles still leaves us with centuries to travel.
Well, teleportation is also possible on earth, if you like moving subatomic particles from one side of an atom to another. The difference between a subatomic particle and a human, much less a spacecraft with humans aboard, is staggering in the way that the universe is huge compared to a human.
I'm not saying it's physically impossible. I'm saying that the technological hurdles are matched by the energy requirements, and we're pretty busy trying to kill ourselves by destroying our habitat. I wouldn't lay odds on us getting off this rock before destroying ourselves.
I'm not a cosmologist, but I think you're overstating things a bit. There have been several cycles of element creation, and it isn't until you get a few rounds into it that you get the elements you need for life.
Not to mention the fact that our best empirical evidence suggests that mass extinction is part of the development of a planet.
Again, not saying it's impossible. Just really, really unlikely.
That would certainly be impressive.
I also think alien life is probable. It's just that there are a LOT of assumptions inherent in thinking that:
1) Other civilizations are close enough to contact us
2) They're interested in contacting us
3) They have the means
Let's put it another way. If you were an oddsmaker in Las Vegas, what kind of odds would you be willing to give that aliens would contact us in the next ten years? I'd give a billion to one odds to all takers (if I had the money).
For each subsequent decade, I'd give the same odds. If they could figure out how to keep me alive for ten thousand years, I'd give the same odds. I'd also die a very, very, very rich man.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
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Ion propulsion is old news (1960’s) and as far as I understand it has been used in space already. I am talking about sails (similar to a sail boat) and a few other viable solutions.
Well actually teleportation has been achieved (not just on an atom), the next step I believe now is to transport something solid and eventually something living. I cannot remember specifics but I think the teleportation of light has been achieved. I will look into it again.
Also wormholes are not really teleportation; wormholes are anomalies in the fabric of space and time. The theoretical energy it would take is massive; the alternative to creating them is finding wormholes. I am not saying we can do this tomorrow but when you take into consideration what we have achieved in the past 50 years it is feasible in the near future.
Wormholes are theoretical but so were blackholes before we proved their existence in the 70’s. Wormholes theoretically exist as seen in the equations of Einstein’s theory of reactivity.
I am talking about travel within our own galaxy taking weeks I am not suggesting the possibility of visiting other galaxies with any type of craft is yet even theoretically possible.
Also we know the composition of planets so if theoretically we found a way to travel across galaxies we would know that the planet we are flying to is Earth like. Yes there are no certainties but we would be pretty confident. It is well worth the risk and I know that many astronauts would be ready a willing to assume that risk.
Well not really, our television signals are flying through space right now. One day a long, long time from now it might eventually get picked up by an alien civilization. Scientist the world over are combing the universe for any form of alien signal.
I am not a cosmologist either but planets that started the process of becoming planets 11billion years before us have had 11 billion more years to evolve. It did not just all start at the same time we have galaxies forming now and galaxies dying now.
If Jesus was born today he would be institutionalized as a schizophrenic with delusions of grandeur.
Actually, they may want to convert all us earthlings to their alien religion. Think about the aliens(missionaries) that came to the new world. They could also act friendly just to get us to convert(like Mormon missionaries).
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
hahaha well i am sure everybody here hopes they are not evangelist aliens.
Some religions would adapt (the Cof E and Catholic church for example no longer deny any scientific discovery they just twist the bible a bit to match it) and then would try to convert the aliens.
I personally think the effect it would have on nations would be far more interesting. Really couldnt see the nation state surviving alien contact, countries just wouldnt make much sense after discovering we werent alone.
Seems to be the general sci fi consensus that Earth will be one government post first contact etc
Where are you getting the figures for this estimate of alien life existing?
A light sail will be limited to the speed of light at the most, which, on galactic terms, isn't all that fast. (the radius of our galaxy is around 60,000 light years, I believe).
What is this theoretical means of propulsion that will allow people to traverse the galaxy in weeks?
Well lets start with the fact that we have at least hundreds of billions or more likely trillions of galaxies in the Universe. Logic dictates that is impossible for Earth to be the only life sustaining planet. Especially when even in our own galaxy we have the possibility of life on moons and planets with water.
Also there is the Drake equation which is tough because we do not know some of the inputs definitivelybut even with estimates it suggests an abundance of life.
Wow and here I thought that travel within a space was completely different from traversing that space. You know for example I can travel to places within Australia in minutes on foot but I cannot traverse Australia in minutes on foot.
Ok ok, silly me I must have been wrong when I said sails would allow us to traverse all 60k light years of our galaxy in weeks. Wait a second..... I never said that.
If Jesus was born today he would be institutionalized as a schizophrenic with delusions of grandeur.
I just wanted to post a quick correction to the "when will we visit aliens" discussion.
I'm nearly positive that there aren't 11 billions year old planets out there with life on them. Stars just don't last that long. There might be 11BYO planets out there, but the stars have surely long stopped producing energy.
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan
Lets start out with the fact that the number of galaxies is irrelevant because you've been talking about staying entirely within our own galaxy. Second, in order to determine if it is likely for Earth to be the only life-sustaining planet, you would need to provide some figures upon which you base that estimate. Third, once you have the number of life-sustaining planets, you would need to determine the likelihood of life actually occuring on that planet. Again, how are you estimating these numbers?
Yes, there is the Drake equation. What's your point? What are you basing your estimates for the variables of the Drake equation on?
Your response does not answer the quesiton. Even so, it appears that you don't appreciate the scale of space travel. Consider that the closest star is 4.5 light years away. The difference between you walking around and you traversing Australia is a factor of about a thousand. The difference between the earth and the moon (somewhere we have gone) and the earth and the next closest star is a factor of about a million.
So then what are you saying? How far do you think we can get in weeks, and what is this magic technology that you think is going to get us there? Even something that could get us to alpha centuri in weeks would be amazing.
If there is life on another planet (Dawkins did a great away of describing the possiblity, at least for me) then there are 3 possibilities, it is superior, equal or less to than us. Now what would happen to religion, well for starters some of it will dissappear, others will be strenghten by it (scientology anyone?) and probably depending if it is superior to us or not (techologically speaking and possibly in other ways) then it could start a new religion or religions. Outside of that I highly doubts we will find life or it will find us within our life time. if you think of all the galaxies and solar systems out there, heck our part of the galaxy has roughly 10 billion solar systems, there are over 100 billion galaxies with roughly 10 billion or more solar systems each, what are the possiblities of 2 life forms finding each other, how would they (us) know where to look?
Any form of contact is two sided, obviously the likelihood of intelligent life within our own galaxy is pretty much nonexistent after us. Listen do not pretend you thought I was suggesting that I thought we had life billions of years more advanced than us in our own galaxy I never said or inferred that. Like I thought aliens inhabited Pluto or something....
Any reference I made to space travel I said would be confined within our galaxy. Obviously any reference to intelligent alien life is not localized.
As for the Drake equation several conservative estimates have been used by cosmologist.
I already answered the question, sails are feasible and they can move us at great speeds.
What parts of our Galaxy could we reach in weeks?
How about Jupiter's moons? How about the ice caps of Mars? I never mentioned any transverse of our galaxy you put those words in my mouth. I said that in weeks we could move great distances that would have previously taken years.
You have basically come here, put words in my mouth and then said that those comments you put in my mouth are wrong. Well I am sure they are because I am not ignorant enough to say that.
Also who mentioned Alpha Centuri? I said planets. Why would we go to a star, so we can land on it?
I started this thread thinking I would get some intelligent opinions on what effect the discovery of alien life would have on religion and I got that. Then you show up suggesting that I said we could transverse our galaxy in weeks. Now you suggest I implied I think we have civilizations billions of years old next door to us.
Also look at how you started off your last post, “Lets start out with the fact” it likes you take glee in having arguments with strangers in forums. What is wrong with you?
Look I couldn’t be bothered with this crap, I have better things to do than to argue with a person who just makes things up.
If Jesus was born today he would be institutionalized as a schizophrenic with delusions of grandeur.
@V1per41 As far as I know there are 14 billion year old stars in our own galaxy.
I definitely agree with that, the chances of it happening any time soon are very slim.
If Jesus was born today he would be institutionalized as a schizophrenic with delusions of grandeur.
Damn, children!
It got awfully rude in here after I left. Is all that entirely necessary? How about if from now on we 1) make sure we're quoting accurately, 2) not assume anything about what the poster means, 3) pretend like we're sitting at somebody's house.
In other words, if you wouldn't treat your dinner guest this way, don't treat our fellow rational responders that way.
Constructive conversation is always better than just bitching.
Thanks.
P.S. Even including sail technology, which, if I'm correct, will get to its infancy after we figure out some really big details, I stand by my opinion that the OP is grossly overestimating the chance that we'll ever meet aliens.
Having said that, my original answer also stands -- religion will survive it.
Having said that, I think it's an anthropomorphic fallacy to assume that aliens will think anything like us, or will have any clue what religion is.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
At this point I'm confused. Are you saying that you think aliens we come in contact with will be from a different galaxy? The Drake equation estimates the chance of making contact with life within our galaxy. Please clarify.
I thought you had mentioned transversing the galaxy:
I thought that reaching distant places in our own galaxy would inolve places outside our own solar system. If I am mistaken, please clarify your point.
You mentioned black holes (not in this solar system), planets older than 4.5 billions years (not in this solar system), other earth-like planets (none currently in our solar system). Visiting other planets involves going to other stars.
This is the height of irony, as I was mimicking your post. ("Well lets start with the fact that..." )
Seeing how you have refused to substantiate any of your claims, I would argue that you're the one just making things up.
Much better.
Thanks.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
err... i think that comment is meant for me, but i didn't see your inital comment until after i posted my response, so you're welcome, i guess
Was directed at everybody involved. Everyone was just bitching, and just in a cursory read-through, I could see that nobody knew for sure what the other was talking about. Better to ask questions for clarification (as you've done) than bitch about what we think someone might mean.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
"Who the fuck worrys about this? ; that is beating ourselves up, what is IS, why worry?; we are ONE, all is god, and god is not all KNOWING nor all caring, but god is indeed curious."
said a laughing Buddha.
Atheism Books.
I do not think we will run into Aliens anytime soon I mean we would need to travel to planets hundreds of light years away. If I gave the impression that we would find intelligent alien life soon then sorry about that.
However as for unintelligent life we might be able to find that in our own galaxy. Around Jupiter we have a few watery moons and moons with liquid methane. Here on Earth methane can sustain life so we figure it is possible there too. Also under the Mars ice caps we could have flowing water. Unintelligent life could be found withing our Galaxy.
As for travel within our galaxy sails and a few other things are viable and they can get us to Mars, Jupiter in weeks. So we can basically check out the surface of Mars for unintelligent life in the near future.
As far as faster than light travel is concerned I have had very limited study on the matter and it concerns finding a loophole in the theory of relativity. I doubt it is even feasible yet but like I said at the rate we are advancing it is only a matter of time.
Anyway contact with unintelligent life is very possible in the near future. As for intelligent life there is probably 1 in a 100 trillion chance they will run into us if they do in fact exist.
Also with the Drake equation I was making the point that with some estimates from cosmologist the Drake equation suggests intelligent life within our own Galaxy. So even if it suggests that there is a 0.0000001% chance when you multiply that by the tens or hundreds of billions of galaxies it becomes pretty clear that it is likely there is life somewhere.
At the end of the day this thread has nothing to do with how probable it is that we will have contact with aliens I just wanted to hear opinions on the effect such contact would have on religion.
If Jesus was born today he would be institutionalized as a schizophrenic with delusions of grandeur.
First of all, astronomy as nothing to do with aliens. Sure, there's SETI... ok... but anyways.
The thing about really religious folks is that they have a knock down argument against... arguments :
You
can't <--- notice the bold fonts here
debate them.
God himself could not convince them of His own nonexistence.
---
So no... An alien encounter will not mean the end of religion.
Si Dieu existe, c'est Son problème !
If God exists, it's His problem !--Graffiti on the walls of the Sorbonne (France), May 1968
romancedlife.blogspot.com
Prophet Carl Sagan warned us, religion could be the end of astronomy .....
LIsten up .... Hear every WORD !
Atheism Books.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2381935.stm
Looks like I stand corrected
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan
Anybody watch Stargate SG-1?
I bet new religions might pop up with people believing the aliens to be gods. What if their mormon? >.>