Free will/Omnipotence
Posted on: March 21, 2007 - 1:00pm
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Free will/Omnipotence
Are free will and omnipotence mutually exclusive? Just about every theist comes up with some usually extremely crappy, although many times creative, answer to this question. Am I at fault for being unable to reconcile how they can be at the same time?
"Foreknowledge is not predestination. Hence why i said he has weird picture of free will. Free will isnt the random element here, but the matter of choice. Having a choice is free will, and of course there will be only 1 decision. And it doesnt matter if a time traveler knows what you will do"
I fail at making sense of the above.
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Welcome to the forum.
Here's a good read:
God the Ironworker by our own todangst.
This old error again.
The problem with this theistic argument is that it studiously ignores that their 'god' is not merely omniscient, but also omnipotent and ALSO the creator of the universe. Therefore, this god does not merely forsee, he preordaines.
Now, if only the bible could give us a clue as to whether one of the books in the bible itself agrees...
Oh wait, it does:
Peter 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Revelations 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
rn:
matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Paul also chimes in and agrees:
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
an old testament version of this same claim:
Jeremiah 1:4 Now the word of Jehovah came unto me, saying, 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee; I have appointed thee a prophet unto the nations.
From a newer translation:
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations." (NRSV)
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
Thanks, that very much clarified and reinforced my original stance on the matter at hand. I can't quite grasp why theists have such great difficulty accepting or even understanding this particular point though.
There's a good reason for that. You have made the unforgivable error of applying critical thought to the statement. You are supposed to merely nod your head and become pacified by the confusing wordplay.
The concept of a god who is both all knowing and all powerful has been disproven time and again. It is impossible to be both.
It amazes me that the concept of freewill actually scares the hell out of people. I suppose that the realization that you are responsible for your own actions is too much for some people to deal with.
I will quote the eminent Neil Peart on the subject:
"You can choose a ready guide
In some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide,
You still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears
And kindness that can kill
I will choose the path that's clear
I will choose free will"
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I think everyone here failed to notice you used the word omnipotence in your first paragraph, instead of omniscience. Technically I see nothing that would make omnipotence and free will mutually exclusive. Omniscience however and free will are mutually exclusive.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Wouldn't the term omnipotence include omniscience? In order to be all-powerful you'd have to be all-knowing? In any case, I meant omniscience.
That's an interesting question. Certainly, to have the ability to do anything, you would have to know all of the possible things to do. Of course, it is possible to do things that you don't know about yet, so I don't think that the two are necessarily related in the way you imply.
Nonetheless, it may have been an honest mistake. We don't expect anyone here to be perfect or omniscient.
Shaun
I'll fight for a person's right to speak so long as that person will, in return, fight to allow me to challenge their opinions and ridicule them as the content of their ideas merit.
That's my view on it. As an example, you don't need to know how to jump in order to be able to jump.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Neil wrote that song? All this time I guess I just assumed that Geddy wrote it. Shame on me for assuming.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
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