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Need help with the ontological argument

Posted on: March 29, 2007 - 6:21pm
Medievalguy
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Need help with the ontological argument

Hey, could someone help me understand the ontological argument and why its bull. I think I get it, but it's a little hazy. Thanks Smiling

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Posted on: March 29, 2007 - 7:01pm #1
AtheistInWonderland
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God is the greatest
  1. God is the greatest imaginable being.
  2. All else being equal, a being or entity that exists is greater than one that doesn't.
  3. Therefore, God exists.

Common sense says it's bull. Even Aquinas didn't buy it. Someone posted on a thread before that they could imagine a god who could have created the universe with one arm behind his back etc..

The argument assumes that god exists and that god is the greatest imaginable being. You could switch the word god with anything and then it must exist too I guess.


Posted on: March 29, 2007 - 8:12pm #2
deludedgod
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Why should you need help?

Why should you need help? No one uses the ontological argument anymore. Even Aquinas rejected it. No theologian takes it seriously. When St. Aslem created it originally, it was designed in prayer format to God (as if any being capable of listeing would need convincing of their own existence).

Anyway. The argument is this: God must exist because existence is better than non existence. The ontology still contains a logical leap because it is nonsensical to state the God must exist because it is possible to imagine a being which something no greater than can be conceived. Existence is better than nonexistence, but the key word in the first step was imagined. It does not have any bearing on whether such an entity actually exists.

Furthermore, if existence is better than nonexistence, then Aslem's ontology fails because God is defined as supernatural, which is defined as being the opposite of exist.

 

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

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Posted on: March 29, 2007 - 8:59pm #3
Medievalguy
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Ok, awesome, thanks. Yeah,

Ok, awesome, thanks. Yeah, I'm in a medieval philosophy class and I have to write a paper on it. I think i'm the only atheist in the class so I try to subtly interject reason into whatever we're discussing.


Posted on: March 30, 2007 - 2:20pm #4
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It confuses existence in

It confuses existence in concept with existence in actuality.


Posted on: March 30, 2007 - 5:54pm #5
Iruka Naminori
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Medievalguy wrote: Hey,

Medievalguy wrote:
Hey, could someone help me understand the ontological argument and why its bull. I think I get it, but it's a little hazy. Thanks Smiling

Another rationale is attributed to Melbourne philosopher Douglas Gasking (1911-1994), one component of his proof of the nonexistence of God:

  1. The creation of the world is the most marvellous achievement imaginable.
  2. The merit of an achievement is the product of (a) its intrinsic quality, and (b) the ability of its creator.
  3. The greater the disability (or handicap) of the creator, the more impressive the achievement.
  4. The most formidable handicap for a creator would be non-existence.
  5. Therefore if we suppose that the universe is the product of an existent creator we can conceive a greater being — namely, one who created everything while not existing.
  6. Therefore God does not exist.

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Posted on: March 30, 2007 - 5:55pm #6
MattShizzle
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That one was in the God

That one was in the God Delusion!