I Could Use Some Advice: Nominally Christian Friend FINALLY Goes Off On Me (After 3 and a Half Months of Non-Communication)
Offline My friend's live-in boyfriend finally wrote me. He said it wasn't my friend's idea. It turns out it was her idea. I don't much like being lied to.
And apparently, I've turned into an "atheist fundamentalist" and she can't handle that. It would have been nice if she'd bothered to tell me how she felt three months ago. As it is now, I'm fucking pissed.
I don't like the direction this is taking. I tried being moderate about religion for years and it just wasn't sitting well with me. Basically, the Christians walked all over me while I was expected to "respect" their beliefs and hold my tongue. I got pissed at them for being pushy and obnoxious, but couldn't push back because I thought I'd be as bad as they were. I found myself vacillating all over the place because I wanted to be able to say what I thought, which is simply this: I don't respect religious beliefs.
I respect people's rights to hold those beliefs, but they shouldn't expect me to just sit by and let them believe without some kind of challenge. Why? Because religion fucks things up.
It's been three long months of dealing with personal shit because my friend suddenly decides to stop communicating with me, won't fucking tell me why, won't anything. And even though I probably shouldn't have opened my big mouth, I tried to make things right and nothing. GOD DAMMIT, I'M PISSED!!!! 
Here's the orginal thread I started 3 and a half months ago: http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/the_rational_response_squad_radio_show/freethinking_anonymous/3806
It would be helpful to read it for background information, I suppose, but whatever. Here's the note she finally sent:
Hi,
First off, I sincerely apologize for not writing you personally and sooner. Chris offered to be intermediary and I took him up on it because basically, I am a coward.
When we spoke via Skype ... you know, I don't even recall exactly what was said but all of a sudden you went off on a huge and long rant. I'm not saying you were wrong or not justified. But in doing so, you scared the living hell out of me. Plain and simple, that's why I haven't been in contact with you. You scared the hell out of me. All the times we talked about the "fundies" who go insane and rant and rave and go on an on and on... in that instance, you sounded exactly like them. It terrified me to the point where I felt I couldn't even risk communicating with you because I was terrified that you would suddenly go off on me again. Yes, I guess we could try to have a "safe" word (maybe not "banana"... see? I read your emails). I want to try. I want to fix this. I miss you, dammit. But I feel like I've been hugely traumatized and I still feel very, very scared. Frankly, I feel sick to my stomach just writing this.
Chris wasn't quite right in saying I lost my faith when my dad died. My faith has been severely battered over the years but the truth is, I never entirely lost it. I am a Christian. I became one in high school. I have struggled dearly with it all these years. But I've never lied to you about it. I cannot bear pushy Christians, cannot bear pushy anybody who insist they're right and I'm wrong and that's all there is to it, it doesn't matter what the subject. Actually, the more I think about it, the more I realize that this doesn't have anything to do with whether or not you or I believe in God. The real issue is that you went totally "fundy-like" and I couldn't cope.
I am willing to try to fix this. If we can't, then I'm hoping to at least part as friends who have just moved on in different directions. I don't want to be in an unstable relationship either and face it, neither of us are terribly stable. But I don't know if I want to just throw away all the years we've known each other.
Think it over, ok?
Deb
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It's funny, she says when you guys used to talk about "fundies" together it was cool. I have a feeling she felt it was cool because she assumed you guys had simular worldviews.
Now you have a different wordview than her and you go off(i'm not sure if was about fundies or not) and she gets "scared". I think what scares her is she thinks your worldview will make you go off on her. Is that the case? Can you guys debate religion in a rational manner or does she get offended when her beliefs are challenged?
Hmm. Strange situation.
I have to say, being a totally nonbiased bystander here, your friend's letter sounds pretty reasonable. I can understand being scared by fundy-like behavior, and I think it was good of her to admit she's a coward over it.
And I can completely understand your letting out all the annoyance and rage in one big spew. It's happened to me more than once.
Maybe if you take the time to explain to her that you aren't a fundy, but what she witnessed was just one big vent from all the keeping it inside you've been doing. Maybe she'll understand that.
Iruka, you have my deepest sympathies! Just recently I had an unsettling argument with my sister and her husband because "It says God right there in the Constitution" and "Jefferson wrote the whole thing" and "Why should we do anything differently if we have been doing it this way for 150 years?" I did not know where to begin! (150 years??) Everytime I opened my mouth they would just yell louder and louder at me telling me I was wrong; I am what is wrong with this country etc. (Btw, this was Easter Sunday - yeah real christian-like) Anyway I sent them an e-mail when I got home refuting each of their statements and provided links and tried to make light of it saying that I enjoyed the debate and look forward to the next one blah blah blah. She called my mother who immediately called me and asked why I am so unhappy. I did not know whether to laugh or cry. Mostly I was just pissed because my e-mail was a good solid argument and they will not even respond to it directly. (They did send me pictures of John Wayne though before I sent the e-mail. Not real sure why.) Anyway, I even made BGH review it before I sent it to make sure there weren't any glaring errors. I ended up telling my mother that I am happier than I have ever been.
I don't really have any great advice to offer because my first thought is to tell her to f-off! She should respect your views and not force you to listen to b.s. If she is not able to do that, then how much does she really care about you? Is she capable of having a relationship with you that is not centered on religion?
Unsettling though my situation is, not communicating with my sister is not a bad thing. I am just more upset that she acted like a 5 year old and ran to Mom.
I haven't run into you yet, so let me say hello: Hello! Gary7...hmmm. Is that the character from the old Star Trek series? This site is inundated by geeks, so if I'm off-base, please accept my humble geeky apology. (BTW, I have geek-like tendencies.)
There are a couple of issues I'm very angry about: 1) Either she or her boyfriend lied about who initiated first contact, 2) I tried and tried to engage her in conversation. I finally wrote her off and moved on. Then after three months she shows up out of the blue expecting me to re-evaluate the situation. I'd already done a lot of internal work toward moving on and she dredged up the whole situation again. I am not pleased.
Another problem is, in the past several months, I have changed. She's absolutely right about that, but I would argue against the term "atheist fundamentalist." You see, I used to be pissed off at proselytizing Christians and decided not to be like them. After reading The End of Faith, The God Delusion and conversing with folks here at RRS, I've decided the "live and let live" approach is untenable. At the same time, I'm adopting a rather level-headed idea put forth by Sapient: Don't engage family and friends.
In the midst of changing my mind is when this happened. I hadn't exactly decided how I was going to engage the theists. The honest truth is I'm completely fed up with theism and want religion to end yesterday. Religion has totally fucked with my life and with the world. It is still taboo to criticize someone's religion, yet they are free to have at my atheism. In the war of ideas, religion will lose. That's why religionists are so adamant about staying in that ivory tower.
So, I've changed my mind about keeping my mouth shut. I feel that all ideas, atheism and the various religions should be subject to open debate. If this movement grows, eventually it will affect the theists in my life. I won't have to be the one to bring them the news that their most cherished beliefs are a load of bullcrap.
However, that one night I was frustrated and vented at my Christian friend. Now I almost feel like I have to explain my position and in order to do that, I'll have to explain why I feel motivated to speak up when at one time I advocated "live and let live." I'm afraid some basic observations about religion might have to be addressed in order to explain my position.
My newfound "voice" doesn't make me a fundamentalist. It makes me an outspoken atheist, which isn't politically correct in society. She's mistaking my lack of political correctness for a radical, fundy-like position.
And yes, she is a coward. She doesn't want anything to destroy her belief in a benevolent sky daddy that will make everything all better. She was perfectly willing to sacrifice a flesh and blood relationship in order to maintain an irrational god-belief. I'm finding myself rather unmoved by this finger-pointing e-mail that came three months too late.
(Look at the other thread if you want to see all I went through to try to make things right.)
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I guess we sort of did for awhile. I wanted to "live and let live." It didn't work. As I mentioned above, the Christians in my life used the taboo against speaking ill of religion while trashing my beliefs and actively trying to convert me back to Christianity.
She gets offended easily and I never know what's going to set her off. This is one reason why I think I'm finished with this relationship.
I probably shouldn't have brought up religion, but because of the changes I was going through, it had been heavily on my mind. I was making the transition from a "live and let live" approach to actively engaging theistic nonsense. I hadn't actually settled on how and when. So I blurted out, "Christianity is demonstrably false." I then gave a bunch of reasons why Christianity couldn't possibly be true. These were good, logical reasons: 1) internal inconsistency of the bible, 2) outrageous claims with no outrageous proof, 3) similarity of the Jesus myth with other pagan god-men predating the first century, etc.
She countered with the idea that faith is a legitimate path to knowledge, which we know is horse puckey. I gave the definition of faith and stated that if it were a legitimate path to knowledge, there would be only one religion. At the same time I left open a path to "spirituality" as long as it could be backed up by evidence. I'm open to meditation, for example, because it can alter brain states.
Her problem is she needs the god crutch. She has to have a belief in life after death because she got dealt a shitty hand in this one. Also, she recently lost a brother and I think she has a need to believe she'll see him again. I can empathize in a way because I had to ditch the whole "life after death" idea and come face to face with my own mortality and the near certainty that this life is all we have.
A part of me is very pissed off that she is too afraid to follow the truth. Yeah, it scared me to death. I went through months of existential crisis once I decided the end was the end. I asked the age-old question: "Then what meaning is there in life?"
I guess it irks me that Christians would rather believe a harmful fairy tale than accept the truth. They perpetuate this fairy tale and make it hard on those of us who get indoctrinated. It would have been better to tell us the truth from the beginning.
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Thanks, jce.
Much of my mind had already moved on, so the delayed note was unexpected and not very welcome. I suppose I should probably give myself some time to think about it, but what irks me is I'd already come to terms with what had happened. This forces me to enter into the situation again.
Right now I'm leaning toward telling her to fuck off.
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I feel like throwing in my thoughts to this problem. Now I don’t know you at all, but it seems like you’ve come to terms with this lost relationship, so I’m going to have to agree with jce, and just tell her to f-off. But again I don’t know what kind of relationship you two had. Though imo, I don’t think a friend who isn’t able to listen to another friends “rant” isn’t a friend worth having. Is that not friends are for? To bitch and complain about things too?
What I found really offensive about her email is that she kept putting you in the wrong. She started off the letter good, admitting that she was a coward, however I find it so annoying how she pulls the “I was scared” card. I find this really pathetic; I don’t think there is anything you could have said that would have scared her into not responding to you for 3 months. If someone says something that I have a problem with the first thing I do is challenge him or her. May I ask what you said in your rant?
Sorry this wasn’t really any type of major advice, but basically I think if there is something worth saving in the relationship, try and work it out. But seeing as you’ve already moved on from this all, I would simply keep on moving past this email.
God Bless!!
I said that Christianity was demonstrably false. I consider the internal inconsistencies, lack of evidence and similarities to other god-men myths pre-dating Christianity enough to discard it. She tried to bring up "faith" as a path to knowledge and I shot that down, saying that if faith were a proper path to knowledge we'd share one religion. At that point, I knew she was getting uncomfortable and decided to stop. I brought the conversation around to "safe" topics.
I brought it up because I was going through some internal changes. The whole "live and let live" idea had never set very well with me. I felt religious beliefs should undergo the same kind of scrutiny as everything else. At this point, I've decided to leave family and friends out of the "scrutiny," but I hadn't really defined how I was going to change. I was mostly venting because religion frustrates me. Christians treat their beliefs as sacrosanct. You don't dare criticize them. It's taboo. Yet atheists are dissed all the time. I was getting tired of the double standard.
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Double standards in humanity? Well I'll be darned.
Organised religion is the ultimate form of blasphemy.
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You said nothing wrong. Maybe I am out of line, but it seems the worst part of this is that she waited so long and then sent an e-bomb to you instead of confronting you in person. Just about the time you heal old wounds, she sneaks in and splits it open.
BUT...perhaps your message sunk in further than you think and she is not so much bashing you as herself...trying to convince herself that she is right. You can try sending a response outlining where you are and why you believe what you do without discrediting her beliefs, but you will be leaving yourself open to future attacks. It is a difficult situation. Stay strong! Talk to us, talk to Gabby...it helps!
Thanks, jce. Your responses (everyone's) have meant a lot. I've been talking to you guys and singing to Gabby. He likes to help me sing.
I've had him for twenty years, so I'm used to his "help." It doesn't distract me. I have four songs to memorize for the "jury" at the college. God, the word "jury" sounds so ominous. The last time I sang for them I had a really hard time keeping a straight face. Everyone was so serious. No one smiled. They sat and scribbled madly on their sheets of paper. The less they smiled the more I felt like bursting out with mad laughter.
I have two new pieces to learn very quickly. One of them is a Newfoundland folk song entitled "She's Like the Swallow." I looked at it wrong once and thought, "She Likes to Swallow." I about died laughing. Every time I look at the title now I can't help but smile. I'm a tad worried about the combination of the very serious jury and "She Likes to Swallow." I can see it now: "Excuse me, everyone. I have to walk outside and laugh for about ten minutes straight. I'll, uh, be back as soon as I stop thinking about sexual innuendo."
As for the situation with my friend, I'm vacillating between anger and sadness. Most of the time I've been leaning toward just bringing an end to it so everyone can just move toward healing. Then I wonder if I should give it one more try. Then I think about explaining my personal changes to her and choke. I think it might turn into an emotional slug-fest. I rather doubt she'll like what I have to say.
I don't think you're wrong about my words sinking in. I think Deb is the type of person that really may need the crutch of religion, but only because she grew up in a society that sanctioned it. Had she grown up without it, she'd be emotionally healthier. I'm pretty sure I'd be emotionally healthier, too. It really pisses me off that religious deception sets people up to be hurt. Someday I hope there's a bigass lawsuit filed on behalf of those Jesus Camp kids: something to get everyone's attention.
Anyway, I may have burst Deb's religious bubble with reason. I think she's less scared of my turning "fundy" than she is of what I have to say concerning religion. I speculated in the other thread that I may have precipitated an existential crisis. I really didn't intend to start spewing forth. It's just I was going through some changes regarding my position on religion and the strain made me uber irritable. Or something. Regardless, Deb's reaction has made me more certain than ever that anything I can actively do to bring an end to religion is a good and decent thing. Had she never been exposed to that crap, she wouldn't have to cling so hard to something totally imaginary to the detriment of a flesh-and-blood relationship.
Fuck religion. Fuck it right in the ear.
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I've mostly moved on, but I can't help but think about my friend. I've written her an unsent e-mail, asking her one more time if she is willing to work on this together. This time I'm asking for a phone call. No more e-mails.
The e-mail is sitting in my drafts folder. I don't know whether or not I will send it.
I'm asking her to get counseling. I don't think I'm asking for too much since she won't have to pay for it (Canadian, eh?). I am seeing a counselor. My counselor aggravates me sometimes, but there are times when I need to be challenged.
As for my friend, I see definite signs of borderline personality disorder. Sigh. I would say I have tendencies in that direction myself, but I don't think I have the full-blown disorder. Still, I have my own issues. I am working on them. I don't think it's too much to ask that she do the same.
I don't know if I will send that e-mail or not. Sometimes I think I will, then I think, "Aw, screw it." I've moved on, but I still don't like ending friendships.
...
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