Losing my Religion (sanity?)
Offline First, I'd like to say that this is a serious question, and I'm not picking on anyone personally. If you are a theist reading this thread and think I'm singling you out.... remember... you're not paranoid if they really are out to get you... No... seriously, I'm not singling anyone out.
(This is, of course, assuming that FTA is open to theists to read still. I believe it is.)
Anyway, here's what I'm thinking about. Over the course of twelve years or so of atheism, I've watched numerous theists go a bit daft when confronted with the reality that their religion is a lie. This has ranged from eccentricity to plain old bat-shit crazy.
The eccentric behavior is when theists begin by being quite rational about questioning faith, but when it becomes obvious that faith is nonsense, they start inventing rather spectacular versions of reality, or taking metaphysics to startling extremes, so that the world view they end up with is so bizarre that you'd have to call it crazy, but they can still function just fine, as long as you don't bring up religion in conversation.
Bat-shit-crazy would be where a theist goes so far to the other extreme that they stop making sense and start believing in Raelians or telling people that they can heal the sick by dripping wax from prayer candles on their own eyelids or something.
Still, some people become liberated and happy when confronted with the nonsense of their theism. We have tons of evidence for that here on RRS. Do you guys think that this has something to do with personality type? Intelligence? How deeply someone was indoctrinated? Are there people who are just naturally gullible? I notice that when someone posts a personality test, many of us atheists show up with similar types.
Furthermore, are boards like this one similar to elephant graveyards, where theists who are on the edge of sanity congregate? I don't mean this question flippantly. Are we attracting mostly fringe theists?
There was a groundbreaking study a couple of decades ago that demonstrated a correlation between correct perception of reality and depression. In other words, depressed people tend to have more accurate awareness of reality, and non-depressed people often are self-deluded with regard to their own capabilities and influence over their situation. Might this have something to do with it?
Again, this is a serious question. I'm not suggesting that all theists are going to go crazy. I'm pointing out that a few people leave religion and become happier, and a few people go the other way and seem to go kind of batty. Many, of course, just ignore the arguments, and go their own way. I'm just wondering what you guys think about the people who go batty.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
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Is "batty" a clinical term? Seriously, I remember from Psych that belief in "magical thinking" does make one more prone to schizophrenia, and religional definitely fits the bill.
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Yep... there's Bipolar 1,2,3, and then Batty.
But yeah, you're thinking kind of on line with me. Is the tendency to believe in magic a tendency toward personality disorder? This is a disturbing thought. I suspect that there's a certain level of gullibility that is an evolutionary development. It is not good to question everything. If we did, we'd never make a decision. So, it's got to be more complicated than that.
So, what makes people more or less able and/or willing to question "supernatural?" Once they have questioned, what determines whether they go rational or batty, or just go back to believing without questioning?
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Hamby,
I think a lot of the insanity comes when they start questioning, like you said. I think some come here with a fairly rational view(in their own mind) of what they believe. Then they get into discussions and start defending their beliefs in a fairly coherent manner. As more and more of the beliefs are challenged the mental gymnastics begin. The posts become less readable and more laughable. They are desperately clinging to the worldview they thought was true and will perform all kinds of linguistic magic to keep some grasp on it.
I actually think these are the more somewhat rational theists but they are having problems admitting they might be wrong. They understand their arguments are not holding water but do not want to let go yet so they go "bat shit crazy", and their posts become bunk.
*Bump*
In my current theist encounter, the theist reacted to reason by refusing to speak to me for three and a half months. I don't know where that falls on the "batshit crazy" scale.
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BGH, I think your signature relates well to this discussion. I'll record it for posterity: "One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. The bamboozle has captured us. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back." - Carl Sagan
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Thank you Iruka! I regularly change my sig., thanks for preserving it here.
In a way, I think I may be asking a redundant question, because insane, in one sense of the word, means something like "excessively irrational." Well, believing in the supernatural is not excessively irrational, because lots of people do it, and that gives it the perception of credibility. In fact, many people never even get to the point of thinking about whether it's rational or not.
Even so, the theists who come on here have a bone to pick, so they're at least thinking about it. Does this make them more irrational, since they have thought about it and still believe it? Is this a sign of a "less stable" theist? Are the more "sane" ones the ones who never question it?
Do you see where I'm going?
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
{Mod edit - removed post per Freethinking Anonymous rules}
Copying the rules of the Freethinker's forum here so everyone will see them as they read through the posts.
From this point forward the moderators will be destroying posts made by theists in the "Freethinking Anonymous" forum. If you are a theist please be careful not to waste your time posting in this forum by looking at the top of the screen to determine which forum you are in when posting. If you are an atheist and want theists to be able to weigh in on your topic, use "General Conversation" or "Atheist vs. Theist."
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That study on depression and realistic thought processes is interesting. Knowing many of the people I do who are atheist it certainly makes me wonder.
There are a variety of theists here from the childish and nonsensical to the incoherant and lazy, there are even intelligent ones who just can't seem to break free or flip their mode of thinking. I see the main problem as being a backwards view of what is real and what is not. Theist ideology teaches people to start with the conclusion, find stories, situations or objects to fit the story and then claim that it's true because you have things to go with it. Many theists who aren't the "fringe atheists" you're talking about don't like to challenge themselves and I think that's why religion spreads like a disease. It doesn't ask you to question anything about it and usually discourages it. As many theists I've asked this question to they say "It's just easier." It offers "everything" in the form of invented excuses and falsifiable claims on a platter conditioned to suit the unknowing masses. To someone who wouldn't understand the scientific method they're an easy target. It's so irritating when I hear a theist make exuses and try to make a case for their religion and yet they fully understand the scientific method but abandon it because religion just feels better than cold-hard facts. That's why the poorest of countries and the most devout of other faiths are constantly inundated with Christian missionaries. Chances are it's not so much about feeding people as it is to prey on the weak and uneducated for conversions. They make those people think that they'll get food and everything they need if they just believe in their deity. It's one world order at it's finest.
You may very well be right about fringe theists but I think many may think that they can engage and make apologist remarks to the point that we'll just eventually believe in what they're saying...I mean what other reason would they have to be here? Some will make post after post simply saying "It is what it is" or "That's what I believe, that's what you believe." (At which point you have to separate out the difference between a belief and knowledge).
As far as going batty there could be several reasons. 1. They're overwhelmed with the amount of information overload. 2. They're scared that they actually are starting to believe what you're saying. 3. Now that the seed of doubt has been planted they are fearful they're going to burn in hell. What better way to project your confusion and fear than to go batty and make everyone ELSE out to be nuts?
As many people know leaving religion behind can be hard. It's frightening when it's been something pounded into your head from the time you're born. My partner and I went to a wedding this weekend and were asked to stand and sing church songs. As an atheist we don't participate but she stood up because she was afraid of the wrath her family would inflict on her if she hadn't. It's a difficult thing for people to leave behind when there are societal acceptance and very personal relationships at risk for doing so. Some people I suppose just are more prone to going batty because of the fear they have in the reactions others might have.
Maybe the batty-ness doesn't have anything to do with faith. Maybe it's that learning the truth has scared them back into it so hard they feel they have to overcompensate for what they've learned, bury it, project it, forget it and convert more?
Flemming Rose: “When [christians] say you are not showing respect, I would say: you are not asking for my respect, you are asking for my submission….”
So, to continue with my own line of thought...
I believed until I questioned. It's pretty much that simple. Sapient's quote, while it is very clever, doesn't quite cover it. He said something like, "I don't think I'm smart because I'm an atheist. I think I'm an atheist because I'm smart."
Obviously, there are many very intelligent people who believe. I am a pretty intelligent guy, and I believed. I wonder if good research would yield a scale, not unlike the Kinsey Scale, except for something akin to gullibility. On one end of the scale would be people who believe almost nothing that hasn't been proven. On the other would be people who will believe almost anything if you say it with a smile. Presumably, 60 percent or so of the population would fall within the range 3-5, where they question some things, and believe others.
How would intelligence correlate to that scale? What about Myers-Briggs personality types? Within that scale, what percentage of theists would be ones (believing almost nothing without proof)?
I said I wasn't going to single anybody out, and I'll take the moniker of liar now if I must. I intended not to, but changed my mind. Sugarfree is a great example of a 6 or a 7. She is not even remotely interested in any proof that she's wrong, and her best evidence that she's right is that it feels right.
Of course, there are atheists who would not be ones or twos. Again, sorry if someone feels picked on, but I noticed in another thread that several atheists wanted to assume the Va Tech shooter was a theist, despite the fact that there was no information released about him. Others recommended waiting until there was some evidence either way. Clearly all atheists are not ones.
So, with this hypothetical framework in mind, my question is, "What separates the 3s through the 5s into atheists and theist?"
Also, "Are 4s and 5s likely to go batty when faced with a paradigm shift?"
Lastly, "What is the ideal number, functionally?" In other words, being a 1 would make it laborious to get through a day in a lot of cases. What number is the perfect balance of acceptance and skepticism?
Please remember, I used the word hypothesis, and I admit that I just made up that scale. This isn't hard science, kids. I'm just brainstorming.
Any opinions?
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
If you read "The God Delusion" Richard Dawkins came up with a scale very much like that!
Yeah... I knew I had read it somewhere, but as I recall, he was also only hypothesizing. Someone should invent a test for that and actually do the research. It'd be damn interesting.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Be kind of cool to see where you scored. Actually, his version 1 was the most theistic and 7 was someone absolutely sure there was no god.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
Hamby, I don't know the answer to the "best" number hypothesis, but I do know a couple of things:
I think by time these folks get here they are already drooling so every argument posed pushes them further over the edge. I was never the most fervent xian so coming here was a relief to me. Yeah, I had questions and wanted to make sure I was getting answers, but well...I already kinda knew Jeebus did not exist. Don't know where I would rank on the scale but I agree that most (not all) of the theists here are 7ish. Scary, that's what it is.
FYI - because I amuse myself in interesting ways, I found these instructions to xians for debating. I laughed for a good bit about it and thought I would share.
Sadly, I believe that the theists are probably not sitting around on their boards talking about whether we are smart, crazy, or on the verge. I do not know for sure, and cannot say for sure until I visit their boards, but I suspect most of thier discussions are regarding our souls or our damnation. Maybe every once in a while a little sprinkling of how we are trying secularize society and take god out of schools.
jce:
Well, duh on their part. *shrugs*
Skeptic: Aha! So now you agree with me that slavery is wrong!
Christian: No I didn’t!
Skeptic: Oh you didn’t? So you admit then that the Bible promotes slavery?
Christian: It does not!
Skeptic: It says right here in Leviticus 25:47, “You may buy male and female slaves from the nations around you.” If you go against what the Bible says, you’re a hypocrite.
Christian: But that isn’t what it means!
Skeptic: Are you saying that the Bible doesn't mean what it says? You Christian slave mongers have a lot of nerve coming in here trying to save my soul.
Christian: I wasn’t trying to save your soul!
Skeptic: Oh you weren’t? You mean you don’t even care if I go to Hell??!! What kind of a Christian are you, anyway?
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