Criticism = personal attack
Offline Debating religious and theological topics may seem like a great way to convince someone their belief system is flawed, foolish, and imperfect, but most often it tends to feel like a personal attack. Even if you point out flaws in someone's belief system, or tell them their great prophet did a lot of contradictary things, or that certain beliefs are incompatible with what we know about the world today, such arguments don't feel like a resolution to the theist, but a challenge. The theist feels obligated to develop a counter argument, a line of reasoning, or something to contribute to the "debate" rather than say "ok, you've won, my beliefs are silly, I'm done." Instead, it's more like "yes, tthat seems silly, but if you look at it from this point of view" as if your arguments were a series of test questions that need to be answered to get a passing Theist grade.
So how can you constructively get someone to change their long standing beliefs? I've found "How to win friends and influence people" to be an excellent guide to argument without making the other person feel as if they're being attacked. I'm sure there are similar methods of constructive argument where the recipient is willing to look at themselves and change. Pointing someone to an anti-Muslim or anti-Mormon website only seems to get the response "oh, they're clearly attacking my religion and my beliefs and me personally" making the Theist defensive and more resistant.
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It's very difficult to not criticize someone's beliefs while not making them defensive, especially if that person is very defensive or has not really considered the reasons for their beliefs.
I don't think it's necessarily good to walk on eggshells because of this, but keeping an even temper and being calm, attentive to what they say, and pullig back slightly when they show defensiveness helps. Sayin gthat, there are some people and some points in a conversation where pulling back will not work; sometimes what is needed is a good slap in the fact (not-literally). Finding the balance and timing of these tactics is often difficult.
But what reallt throws me is when people who are not religious also get offended or defensive from people criticising others' beliefs. You are not challenging their beliefs, but the fact that you are challenging someone's beliefs offends their sensibilities, somehow. Often, they claim they just want to live and let live, but they do seem to react emotionally or defensively. I don't know how to talk with them.
Shaun
I'll fight for a person's right to speak so long as that person will, in return, fight to allow me to challenge their opinions and ridicule them as the content of their ideas merit.
I've found in life that there are a lot of people who just don't like argument and debate. They view any attempt to question their position as an attack. After all, if you think I'm smarter than you, you won't question me, right? Therefore, if you are questioning me, you must think I'm dumber than you. Are you calling me stupid?
On the other hand, there are a lot of people like myself that think that smart is as smart does and that you're only ever as smart as you can prove yourself to be. If someone can kill an argument of mine, I'm more than willing to call them smarter than me...until next time.
I think the first attitude may actually be connected to a theistic viewpoint! Remember, if you hold beliefs based on faith, then you are holding beliefs as a matter of principle, not rational discovery. This means that what you believe is tied to your moral character rather than to any particular argument. For instance, if a theist stopped believing in God, he would consider that a moral, rather than an intellectual, failing. So when an atheist questions that belief, it's the same as the atheist accusing him of being a bad person. Thus the anger.
Personally, I consider it a waste of my time to try to convince anyone that their beliefs are wrong. What isn't a waste of time is fighting the political fight to get rationality reinstated as the only legitimate basis for creating public policy. We have all of human history to show us that when religion is admitted as a policy tool, violence and repression are the only results. People will always have different viewpoints. But reason is the one mental tool that unites us all, even if some people would like to pretend that it isn't.
Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown
I think that when some (and not all) theists come to this site, they already have their defenses up and therefore construe anything we say as a personal affront. It always baffles me when they say things like 'it hurts me when you criticize god' and stuff like that. I'm not quite sure what to say to that (besides, 'get a thick skin' or 'why the hell did you come here in the first place'
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Shaun's absolutely correct that it is difficult to try to keep a balance. It's very frustrating when theists dodge questions or just keep hammering away at their stance without even listening to anyone else's.
Not to generalize, but I think a lot of theists think with their emotions and not their heads.
If god takes life he's an indian giver
Just getting a theist to speak to a non believer about religion can be a good thing in itself- this is one time their want to convert us can be an advantage. They're open to the discussion.
Every good point we make is like a seed being planted, over time it could make a difference. I also throw in a bit of personal story of how I moved away from religion now and again. It doesn't sound preachy if you do it right, you're just helping them see how you got to where you are now and why you're on the other side of the fence.
Sometimes it's hard to remember just how strongly we used to believe in these things. I lay it on thick at first, then if they get stuck on a point or resort to 'well, I can't believe anything that goes against the Bible' I soften up a bit and show them I used to think like them, but that it was things like these points that got me thinking.
Personally, I have trouble with them when they come here only to preach and do not answer valid, respectful questions. That said, I do think there must be a better way to have a dialog without it resulting in hurt feelings. Without turning this into a separate argument, the last couple of theists that accused us of being mean had two things in common:
- They were strong theists (possibly fundamentalists)
- They were women
Now, while I do not want to bash my own gender, I think it is fair to say that because of their heavy indoctrination they have also been led to believe that they are inferior to men and praised for their strong emotions. Obviously, most (if not all) of the women on this site do not believe that or we would not be here and I don't know about anyone else, but it is very hard for me to understand these beliefs. This is something I need to spend a little more time looking into and developing a way to deal with it.These were a couple points I read in an article in Parade Magazine regarding political discussions (not the best source, but the advice is good):
Rule No. 1: Don’t expose weaknesses and flaws in the political beliefs of others. It provokes defensiveness, because everyone believes they are right; it makes people mad, because everyone hates to be called wrong; and people who are both defensive and mad are going to be ready to quarrel. Plus, showing people the error of their ways doesn’t make your ways right.
Rule No. 2: Explain the positive basis and evidence for your own political beliefs. People are more likely to adopt new beliefs than to drop old ones; also, people are more receptive to other ideas when not annoyed, and they will listen longer to pleasant, well-grounded comments and points. Plus, your beliefs needn’t be “right”; they need only to be a better choice.
The second rule may be useful for dealing with theists similar to GLAM and SF. For one thing, they love that their own faith is so positive in their own eyes that they want to "share" it with everyone and, for another, this may help them see that we are not all as negative as they have been led to believe.