Moving Forward
Offline Is there anything to be learned or otherwise accomplished by debating the average apologist? I feel like I'm wading through raw sewage every time I encounter a "god of the gaps" or "watchmaker" argument. Even the most curious and intelligent theists I've seen have only managed to muddy the waters with logic puzzles. Otherwise, they point out, as if it supported their beliefs over others, that one can't logically disprove something (or anything). I'm taken aback with astonishment at the enthusiasm some regular posters on here have shown to produce well-researched rebuttals to people who arguably don't deserve the dignity.
I feel fatigued by constantly having to return, even just for the sake of pointing out the inconsistencies, to assumptions I dismissed as a child. I have concluded there is literally nothing to be learned from the experience of debating a rabid theist. Most argue from ignorance, and we are forced to plumb the depths of that ignorance to refute them. It's a numbing, tiresome and depressing experience.
What I'm getting at, I think, is I want to know where we are supposed to go from here. I know what my counterparts sound like, what they believe (which varies wildly), but I don't know what to do to get out of the schoolyard shoving match and actually do something to counteract their detrimental influence on our country/planet.
I know the alignment of atheists into a political force is an uneasy proposition, on principle alone, but we have to do something. Churches have become a powerful political tool for dignifying in numbers the most stupid and backward of social programs. I am aware of things like the Atheist Blood Drive, but I'm unclear on how to show support for other things I believe in: gay marriage, embryonic stem cell research, abortion rights, separation of church and state, sex education (here and abroad). I think the next step is to package these things for mass consuption. Dawkins and Harris made atheism an accessible prospect for the average person. Is it time now to move forward and show what we can do?
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Basically I have tried to reach the people I know, the ones who are more rational and have an open mind. I talk to them tell them the reasons I support the issues we are discussing. I try to get my point across, let them know it is okay to think differently than the 'flock'. Hopefully if I make a convincing argument and they support the issue too, they in turn will try to convince others.
The theists who continually use fallacy after fallacy to hide their god away from reason are essentially 'projects', they take a long term investment of time. Some, you will reach and some are WAY to far gone. With the unreachable you have to hold out hope that their children may grow up with a little more open mind.
Hi BGH,
I understand what you're saying, and from what I've read I understand you've been successful in persuading friends to question their beliefs. But what I'm wondering is what we should do, as atheists, to further--at the risk of sounding scary to theists--a secular and progressive sort of agenda.
Christian and Muslim fundamentalists have made it easy for moderates and average people to exercize vast amounts of political power. Unfortunately, they're misleading people with dreams of power and immortality and misrepresentations of the issues. On an almost knee-jerk level I'm appalled at the idea of spoon-feeding people in a similarly condescending way, to achieve an end for myself that its supporters would never more than dimly understand. I want to believe there's a middle ground. A way to make it easy for atheists, progressives, humanists, freethinkers, etc., to voice their consciences without oversimplifying things so that they're not understood.
Leave nothing uncriticized. Leave nothing unquestioned. Question everything. Take nothing at face-value. Use reason, logic, and your mind in everything. Nothing is immune to critique, nothing is unquestionable.
"Why would God send his only son to die an agonizing death to redeem an insignificant bit of carbon?"-Victor J. Stenger.
Here's how you do it with these gimps: Point out that you've actually MET some watchmakers in your time. Same with that other moronic argument of "A painting needs a painter!" ... "Well no shit. I paint. I'm a painter. We exist. DURR." HOWEVER, no, I have never met a god. Not once. Not ever.
Know what else? I'm one of those militant atheists who will say that we never will. A "god" implies "supernatural". The only way a "god" can exist would be if that "god" were actually just an alien-being that early man stupidly thought was a "god". That's all. Nothing worth worshipping about that. That's how I deal with those morons, I go into that spiel. Most of them just pretty much plug their ears and go "LA LA LA", but I have had a couple that just get depressed and quiet. I assume because I partially got through to them. Of course, they always go back to the religion thing because it makes them feel warm and special. They like that feeling, the feeling of importance that religion brings. They can keep telling themselves that they are "chosen", that they are "made in" someone else's "image", like that's somehow a good thing...
And this is where the atheistic and agnostic community has had a lot of trouble. People don't like to be tested or challenged, they like to live as if nothing is or ever will be wrong. The only way most religious folk will turn away from their group is if they are either made uncomfortable or angry by that group or were a victim of wrong-doings of that group. I left the church because it made me uncomfortable and angry to watch the same rituals take place week after week by the same hypocrites claiming to be god's people (and the bigotry, especially against gay people).
As to the original post my answer is: no. The average athiest or agnostic that I have met has a far greater knowledge of religion and it's history than most apologists ever will. Someone who posts on this site had a signature that seems relevant to this forum topic which I will use to finish this up:
Your god's silence speaks loud and clear
Thank you for your responses so far.
I guess what I'd like to explore (or connect with if it's already been established) is the idea of packaging political actions in an accessible way, similar to the way church organizations do it. I've already voiced my apprehension towards this idea, but, while I can't dismiss the risk of oversimplifying the issues, I think confusion, isolation and apathy are a worse choice when confronted by complex social ideas.
Before I watched a lecture by Sam Harris, I had no idea that the proposition of embryonic stem cell research concerned fertilized eggs comprising 150 cells as opposed to a developed fetus. I didn't know the embryos in question were bound for the biological waste container if not used for research or implanted.
Information like this is significant to the way a person views this issue. If forced to choose between a person who is right now suffering from a neurological disease and a collection of cells bound for the trash, the choice to me is clear. What I don't know is what to do about it.
We need information on websites, in print, in PSAs, on video, to tell people things hitherto clouded by misinformation, and to tell them what they can do about it.
My suggestion is that we listen more carefully to the arguments given. Although they make me cringe too, it is important to learn where the theist is coming from. There are psychological reasons why atheism is resisted and that's what we need to address.
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We need to find out why our worldview is counter intuitive to them and address that. I think that the mistake we often make regarding apologetics is to assume that the Christian's belief depends upon them, when in truth they might not fully understand the argument they are giving, but are just trying to speak the atheist language of 'reason' and 'science'.
My purpose in arguing on this site is to hone my understanding of these arguments and my presentation of them, so I get better at presenting arguments in a way that trully addresses the theist's concerns. I actually have a plan to make a small booklet that would present atheism in a clear way that addresses these concerns. It would be a simple, small booklet that atheist all over the world could print off, assemble and then leave around 'Chic Tract' style.
(except my booklet would be advocating rational truth rather than horrible bigotry and scare tactics!
Strafio,
I like the booklet idea. When it's developed, let me know if you want any help. I have a decent background in graphics and layout (Quark, InDesign).
The simplest and best answer will probably take a surprising amount of effort to achieve. That is, just making people aware of what words and concepts really mean. Whether or not they choose to dismiss the concepts just the same, it's important that people know what they mean. Atheist doesn't mean frothing maniac, and evolution doesn't mean the horse evolved from the carrot.
I must say, before I started reading and posting on this site, even though I have a firm grasp of science and evolution in general, my arguements were little better than, "cause there isn't an easter bunny you silly monkey". I'm very anxious to take anti-vangelicalism to the next level. There is a leased cable television station in my area that I'm thinking about broadcasting some sort of rational hour. I like the booklet idea as well, although I'm not very confident in print media these days. Most people don't anything anyway. There is too much junk mail and adverts out there.
A daughter of hope and fear, religion explains to Ignorance the nature of the unknowable. -Ambrose Bierce
Barbaque more kittens. If you are not doing that you are not a "true, tradmark, copywrite, all rights reserved "ATHEIST".
Translation= HUMOR.
Even though I am a bit of a hothead, I do like using humor to show people that I dont have a third eye.
Let me give you an example on a non religious issue.
The last place I lived, I worked for my landlord. I was at one of his complexes and two "good ol boys" were bashing lesbians. I dont mean joking like friends joke about friends, these were homophobes.
I quipped at them, " 6 BILLION PEOPLE AND NOT EVERYONE WILL BE A CLONE OF YOU.......CALL CNN!"
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Gods are fantasies like a cartoon in the mind. Watching someone use logic to chase an apologist around the room reminds me of a roadrunner cartoon. When you have the apologist against the wall, their god can be as resourceful as the roadrunner who would pull out a paint brush, paint a door on the wall then step through it, leaving the coyote or the rationalist with a WTF look on his face. I believe that the coyote and the rationalist would have better luck if they realized that they were dealing with a cartoon. You can’t catch a roadrunner or an apologist if you allow yourself to be part of their cartoon.
I was going to start a similar thread. Half the time just reading some threads here or youtube responses makes me feel like a 3-legged dog chasing it's tail.
When you sit back and observe 99% of the arguments presented and detect the absolutely faulty logic it genuinely makes me want to throw my arms in the air and proclaim that there is no way I am going to be able to have a conversation with the person, let alone anything more.
On the positive side, I have talked to a few people about RSS in my local area and I we have decided to start an active atheist group to aggressively promote awareness in our town.