Help Me To Understand This
Offline As an agnostic - I don't have any "hard line" views - one way or the other.
What I do have is a very low tolerance for the "bullshit" spewed by "believers" and "non-believers".
For example, I don't, for one moment, think that belief in a God (Judeo-Christian / Muslim or Hebrew) is symptomatic of some kind of a "mind disease". The FACT is that the large / overwhelming percentage of the world's population believes in a deity - both now and in the past. And included in those numbers - both past and present - are some brilliant people.
Conversely, I don't believe that an individual who claims to be an atheist is somehow more "rational" and enlightened that a person of faith.
Here's an example of the "bullshit" I'm referring to.
On the home page, this line appears - "If you are a theist, please feel free to post your scientific evidence for God".
ANYBODY with more than 3 functioning brain cells knows, for example, that the existence of God can neither be proven nor disproven.
Theists who claim they can are full of shit.
And atheists who throw out this "nonsensical" challenge" are equally full of shit.
But assuning for one nano-second that science could "prove" it, let me throw these questions out to you.
1.) What branch of science would be best "qualified" to provide the proof? Biology? Chemistry" Physics? Botony? Medicine?
2). What scientist has the training / education to conduct the necessary experiments to arrive at the "proof? A doctor? Chemist? Biologist?
3.) What institution of higher learning actually has courses on ascertaining the existence / non-existence of God ? MIT? Stanford?Harvard? The Sorbonne?
4.) What sort of scientific equipment would best be suited to ascertain the existence of God? An electron microscope? A telescope? a microphone?
I could easilty think of another 20 or 30 questions, but you hopefully get the idea.
Finally let me throw these questions to any rational responder who wants to play this game.
What's heavier - humility or anger?
What has a "saltier" taste - love or hate?
What's longer - envy or pleasure?
Get the idea - it's a idiotic question - challenging a theist to provide scientific proof about something that has NOTHING to do with the world of science just demonstrates to me that you're more interested in "playing silly little games" than you are in engaging in a constructive dialogue..
Just as it's equally stupid to ask somebody to provide scientific proof about what's heavier - humility or rage.
I see this sort of nonsense on "fundie" sites - I would have expected better from people who claim to be "rational" and thinkers.
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A proper proof would be being able to meet "god". It'd be nice if he/she/it could fly down in it's GodMobile to submit to a nice little interview to settle all the problems if indeed it does exist.
As for you fun quiz, I like it actually:
What's heavier - humility or anger? - Anger weighs more heavily on a persons mind.
What has a "saltier" taste - love or hate? - Tricky one... If love leads to a blow-job, it would be the one... If hate leads to a busted lip, I'd say that one... Hm... can't really pick on that one.
What's longer - envy or pleasure? - I find envy is. People hold on to it far longer than they hold on to pleasure. Once people satisfy one desire, they move on to another. An envy though, seems to last and last until someone gets hurt. Envy makes me shed an emo tear ;_;
I personally think the whole "the existence of god can neither be proven nor disproven." is just something some overly nice person came up with trying to placate both sides. It doesn't work. At some point someone needs to speak up. Especially since the fundies are INSANE and pretty well destroying the world, trampling over the rights of everyone else in the process.
It's not a completely stupid question.
While you can't prove or disprove a theory you can certainly examine claims made of a god. For example answering prayers would be a good place to start. Take a coin and flip it a hundred times after having prayed that heads comes up more often then not. If you get 51 heads then you can't be to sure your prayer was answered, but getting all heads would be pretty convincing as the likelihood of that occurring is only about 10^-30 or so... assuming you used a fair coin.
Revelations are a bit tricker as you don't get to pick your target (if you did it would be a prayer), but the same statistical approach could be taken.
Not all claims can be tested though. "Follow these rules and you'll go to heaven when you die" is untestable as we don't have accurate census data on heaven.
Which are you? I didn't ask what you know either.
Sooooo, because so many people believe it then it must be true? I don't follow and neither does your reasoning.
Soooo, people who believe in a god that they can't see, hear, touch, taste, smell, describe, or locate are rational. Okay. Well I think we're almost done here.
And yet you say that theism is NOT a mind disorder? Theism is a 'belief in a god(s)' and so it would seem slightly more rational that someone would look for empirical, scientific evidence for their god rather than just discounting the effort altogether. In other words, my sweet noob, you are being the irrational one.
Sticks and stones. Rubber and glue. Your opinion sucks. So, fuck you too.
Please see the previous response as to why a theist searching for scientific evidence is slightly more rational than faith or belief/disbelief or apathy like yours.
Oh goody. The alleged 'agnostic' has questions.
Any and all. You're the one that said it was impossible. Even if there were only three brain cells in your head, I'm sure that you could remember that.
It's about the science, not the scientist. It wouldn't matter if a third grader found Noah's Ark, it would still be Noah's Ark.
That was a pretty irrational question.
Are you planning on trying to get into one of those? If so then we've got a long way to go toward getting you prepared for real school instead of the one the short bus takes you to in the morning.
I'd say any, because it comes down to what you learn, not where you learn it.
All.
I know a good one. How about an experiment where I stand inside and you stand outside and we both ask it to quit raining when it isn't?
Oh please do post them. I really don't think these have been as much fun for you as they have for me.
Oh goody. More myspace memes.
Darn. I don't know either one of those people.
Hatefucking always works up more of a sweat, but I love that so....
Darn. This is tough.
I'll go with love.
Envy because it is a longing for something.
Aww. You're the one that suggested we play along with your games and now you're denigrating us for doing it? What a bitch.
Wait. I know this one.
Osmosis. right?
And I would have expected better from a 'fundie' than you delivered.
Wanna play some more games?
How do you keep an 'agnostic' in suspense?
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Stop with the ad numerum arguments (original poster). It is a logical fallacy to argue that just because many people believe something, that it must be so. In fact we know this is false. Just because many people believed the earth was flat, was it so? Absolutely not. It lends no credence to the logic or the answer.
This also means that theism is subject to classification as a mind disease. Merely because many people believe it, does not make it correct, rational, or even sane. Many examples from history on this.
When you come down to it, you nor anyone else has been able to develop a positive ontology for the existence of a "god". The concept is not falsifiable and is internally inconsistent.
http://www.rationalresponders.com/god_is_an_incoherent_term
take a gander
And lose the ad hominem in your arguments, it really makes you look silly
OH.. and I cannot forget---
I see that you tried to use a NOMA argument (non-overlapping magisteria). Do you really understand what this argument consists of? This theory has been debunked and put down by many scientists and philosophers. It is the idea that the magesterium of science cannot reach the magesterium of religion or god - and it is absolutely bunk.
Biochemist & Law Student
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." -Thomas Jefferson
I would love to take the quiz as well; I find these questions to be awesome!
What's heavier - humility or anger?
- I’m going to have to go with humility, it “brings you down to earth” it has be pretty heavy in weight if it can do that!
What has a "saltier" taste - love or hate?
- Definitely hate. Salt is a way to add flavor, love is pure; it has no need for a fake flavor.
What's longer - envy or pleasure?
- I’m going to have to go with envy, though I hate too. Both answers already given are excellent. However I think if you find love and happiness and use this as your pleasure then it will out last any envy you have.
If you have anymore please post them!
As atheists we all have of course heard of the Angry Atheist - but I must say this is the first time that I could ever call someone an Angry Agnostic!
My word! ;D
Biochemist & Law Student
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." -Thomas Jefferson
Darth_Josh:
When you have something useful to say, let me and everybody else know.
22jesus22:
You thought my questions were AWESOME..!!
Dawg, like that's so kickin it - I mean that's so awesome that you think my question is awesome.
OOOPs, son, I think your momma is calling you - time for beddie - nite nite..!
Awesome chatting with you dude.!
Thraxas:
Just because many people believed the earth was flat, was it so? Absolutely not. It lends no credence to the logic or the answer.
No - of course, it doesn't make it so - I NEVER said it did.
But I'm sure there were alot of very smart people who held the common belief that the earth was flat once upon a time - it doesn't mean they weren't smart - it simply means they were wrong about something.
By the way, and PLEASE don't take this personally, but why the reference to biochemist and law student in your signature?
Do you feel that people won't take you seriously unless you convince them that you're educated?
John
B. Comm / MBA / CFA
Regional Vice President
VISA International
(and blues guitar player extraordinaire if I do say so myself..!!)
Most people DON'T take you seriously unless you're educated.
Who's opinion is valued at VISA more?
Your's with all of your education, or the stock boy who dropped out of highschool?
You may have the same level of intelligence, but your education says that you have the higher level of knowledge and expertise.
http://atheismisrational.blogspot.com/
I'm with you that you can't prove or disprove the existence of a god. Which is why most people here are technically agnostic.
However, we can look at the claims made about the characteristics of specific gods that people believe in. Take Yahweh for example. The way he is described in the bible is self contradictory. We know that no such being could possibly exist, just like we know that there is no such thing as a square circle.
If I were to put money on it I would probably bet that there is no supernatural divine being, but I agree it wouldn't be very logical to say that you know that no such thing exists.
When talking to a theist I never ask for proof of their deity. Most admit that it's an impossible question so it's not really worth asking. A better question is to just ask for some evidence. Any evidence. At all. When they fail to provide any then I ask them why they believe in such a being.
As far as theism being a mental disorder. I'm a little confused as to how theism is all that different from schizophrenia as they share many of the same symptoms: Delusions, hearing voices, Difficulties attending to and processing of information, in understanding the environment, distorted perceptions of reality, disordered thinking, etc... If someone believed that there was an invisible squirrel outside their window that commanded them to hate gays, atheists and muslims while also promising them eternal salvation if you gave him some acorns would you not think that he was suffering from a mental disorder? Your argument that some very smart people believed in a deity so it isn't a mental disorder doesn't make any sense. John Nash was a brilliant mathematician, does this mean that he didn't actually suffer from schizophrenia? Of course not, you can still be smart and suffer from mental diseases.
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan
Ok, so if the majority of humans, after being demonstrated ad nausium that the world was flat, you'd say, "Hey, what harm is there in believing that the world is flat"? That people believe false things is part of human nature. But it is a desease to humanity that we cant seem to overcome. You are trying to make this out to be a "We hate you" issue when it is not.
What is a plague on humanity, be it about celebrity, politics, nationalism or religion, is that humans still have not evolved to the point of introspection and examination to do the right thing and give up on debunked claims.
"Worship" means in it's litteral origin, "to bind". If a human's natural disire is freedom, then "binding" yourself to a person, party, nation or religion is contrary to that natural human behaivor.
"Clubs" are what all these things are and are natural. "Clubs" are not going to be elimininated by any means, be they national, political or religios or sports.
The "desease" is the hicup in our evolution that because we seek "safty in numbers" we still have the desease of not checking our ego's at the door.
Example:
Galileo, "The earth rotates around the sun"
Church, "You are attacking our faith, we dont like that"
Galileo, "No, I simply am pointing out something you believe that is false"
Church, "How dare you. You will remain under house arrest for going against popular belief".
THAT IS A DESEASE! And that type of pollitically correct autoritarian rule still plauges humanity today.
ANOTHER EXAMPLE:
Plato's Appology:
Socrates, "It is good for my students to question and not buy something because someone in autority claims it"
Senate, "You are undermining our authority. Stop it"
Socrates, "No, I am simply saying that a better way to educate is for the student to have the ability to question and even correct a teacher if the teacher is inncorrect. Shouldnt a teacher have correct information?"
Senate, " How dare you question authoritarian figures. Now drink this Hemlock".
Your reaction comes, not from us being hatefull. Your reaction comes from being uncomfortable with things that challengs set norms. We would never have grown out of the dark ages if no one asked questions.
The packaging bothers you. So, insted of asking the people here to sugar coat life, maybe you should spend time examining the claims people make. That is how society learns, by going outside their comfort zone.
"Question with boldness even the existance of God, for if there be one, surely he would pay more homage to reason than to that of blindfolded fear" Thomas Jefferson
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams April 11th 1823
Do you think Jefferson shouldnt have said that? Do you think Jefferson would buy claims of multiple armed deities if he is classing the birth or death of Jesus in the same mythology of the polytheistic ancients?
Do you think someone who claims that Jesus sent little green men to our planet "Scientologists" should be considered credible? Do you think that Marshall Applewhite should get a pass?
Just because the three worlds major Abrahamic religions are popular does not mean any three of those claims are credible simply because people like them.
You could argue that it is not a desease, but a side effect of human evolution since early humans didnt have the same information they do today. But the fact that humans cling to absurdities such as ouji boards to us is no different than claiming that a girl can get pregnant from a "spirit".
Side effect, or deasease, either way superstition of any kind, be it out of the weekly world news, or out of the Reg Vedas, or OT or Quran, is still superstition. Mask it in popularity all you want. A lie is a lie weither the person believes it is or not.
I dont think that is a good basis to live your life, "It makes me feel good". Thats fine untill it starts affecting other people."Worship" of authority of any kind, be it Hitler, or a King, or a cop, or a religion or a theocracy without question is a desease.
This is not about "Cant we all just get along". DUH
But that should not come at the cost of pollitical correctness or censorship just because someone might hear something they dont like. If people want to shut us up the best way to do that is come up with evidence. It doesnt matter to us weither you are talking about Thor or Isis or Jesus or Allah. I dont buy anything simply because someone claims it.
We are well aware that 6 billion people are not always going to agree with us. The fact that you are criticising the tactics this site uses is evidence of that. But this is not "Shock" jock value.
I think lack of skepticism and questioning an blindly following ANYTHING, is a desease. Forgive me for seeking truth, that is such a horrible thing.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
I don’t understand your post directed at me? You didn’t even respond to the answers I offered or post more of your awesome questions! And why is my mother calling me for bed? Could you please be kind enough to clarify?
Garrett
First Year College Student
Unemployed
Avid Hockey Fan
(Should I be bragging?)
Oh quick. Someone put me out. I'm so on fire from that burn. Oh my poor ego may never recover.
U R SO MEAN. IDK Y U HAYT ME. boo hoo.
Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server, which houses Celebrity Atheists.
You're either a theist or atheist. There is no semitheist. There is no halfway position unless you're schizophrenic.
Oh but there is another possibility, you don't know what the word 'agnostic' means.
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
The question of God's existence is a scientific one.
Either God exists, or he doesn't. If God exists, he must have some evidence of his existance. Science, if this evidence existed, would be able to find it. If God leaves no evidence, it means he has no effect on the world at all. And if that's the case, why call him God?