Have you ever swayed anyone?
Offline I have been lurking the forums for a while and finally decided to post this. I have been arguing with theists a bit for the past few months, not necessarily for the sake of arguing, but every time there is a good opportunity I voice my opinion on religion. And after a while I noticed something.
Yesterday I've watched the semi-full version of the "big debate" aired on ABC (Speaking of which, tremendous props to RRS!) and noticed how exceptionally delusional Ray and Kirk are. So delusional, in fact, that they kept spewing their vomit-inducing preachings after being pretty much trashed in a debate.
My finding (nothing sensational, I just discovered this for myself) is that no matter how good your arguments are, you can not sway a theist "opponent". I've argued dozens of times and every time it felt like I was headbutting a sidewalk. I can't see what's the point of all this if no one listens?
So my question is: Have you ever found someone sane enough to listen to your arguments?
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I haven't but every so often on here they post messages from people that were deconverted by the RRS.
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I think all that means is that those people didn't form a strong opinion on the subject. If they would have done that, nothing on earth would make them abandon their delusion.
So I guess what I'm saying here is: I feel like it's not worth it to combat the delusional. By myself anyway. I make no difference. For a while I thought that I could make a difference armed with rational thought and logic.
You can make a differece. Just being an example is enough to maybe push someone in the right direction. It's how I came to my views on religion. I followed the example made by people like the ones here.
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There are people who used to be fundies, even fundie ministers that became atheists.
Look at my blog! It's awesome!
I'm also on this Twitter thing
Now wait a minute. I was as delusional as they come and just as obnoxious as some of the fundies that make you want to pull out your hair. There are examples of pastors and priests who have left the fold, too.
Just because there aren't "enough to make a difference" is no reason to give up. It could be that there will come a time when our numbers and arguments will reach a critical mass of some sort. Europe used to be extremely religious (Inquisition and all), but now some European countries are highly enlightened. It's true that Britain is showing some signs of going back to ignorance, but hopefully, the rational will get to them.
Also, we may come across a better way to engage the theists. Maybe what we're doing now is inadequate, but it doesn't mean that all efforts are inadquate.
I'm not ready to give up on this yet. The fight means a great deal to me because I was lied to and hurt by religion. At this point, I feel it's my moral obligation and the one "cause" to which I'm lending what little energy I have.
We're supposed to be rational. Let's figure out more ideas instead of caving in to the boneheaded religionists.
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Unfortunatley it may be quite difficult to tell who is completely delusional and who still has the potential to listen to reason, so that is no reason not to try to make logical arguments.
I've never really tried to persuade people out of their beliefs I don't think, merely argued for my own point of view, point out faulty logic, and dispel myths. I've had inadvertent success way back in the day.
My best friend was a Christian, and we had short uninformed debates as early teens. He is now an atheist and he told me that one of the things that made him change his mind was thinking "phooney is clearly a really good person, just because he doesn't believe 'x' in no way justifies burning forever" and that led him to question several other aspects of his faith etc.
Look at my blog! It's awesome!
I'm also on this Twitter thing
One full deconvert under my belt.
JCE a fellow moderator here on the forums, two years ago she was a believer.
It is described in her own words here:
Thread
And hopefully many others I am unaware of that were afraid to let me know I deconverted them because their pride would be hurt.
Thanks for the replies. I suppose the reason I may be running into such difficulty is because I live in the heart of the mormon cult
I'm glad to see someone actually converted someone else, although I noticed jce wasn't exactly Christian per se, just kind of spiritual which is long ways away from fundamentalists I run into on regular basis.
You are correct about JCE being spiritual, but she was raised christian. She had called herself christian prior to the day of the discussion, but then had recently begun calling herself 'spiritual'.
I think the thing you are looking for is not present in most fundamentalists. A person actually has to be able to admit they have doubts to themselves before anyone else can even begin to have an effect on them.
I don't know that I have ever changed anyone online though I may have had some effect. I just don't know.
But in real life, I used to argue religion a lot with a very good friend of mine. Even then the conversion was not totally due to me. One day, after several months of no contact with him, he gave me a call. One of the things he asked was if I was still an atheist. I said, Of Course. He then told me that these days he was pretty much in agreement.
There it is. He couldn't believe in god or good and evil anymore.
I don't know if i have ever converted or swayed someone to atheism per se, i know, at least from what he said, that i convienced him to go to god, his arguement was that he tried to live my lifestyle and found it wrong and sinful. Let me state that anything and everything we did, he did willingly, i never forced anyone to do anything. Apparently he got "addicted" to going to the strippers, about 5 times a week. Now I went about 1 once a month, with friends....and my wife and their GF's. This was a night out, having fun....not every weekend, not once a week, but maybe, once a month (and we haven't gone now in 3 years because of lifestyle changes) But apparently his addiction to strippers was my fault. As well his smoking weed daily, was also my fault, even though i only smoke at parties or when i head snowboarding at the cottage, again not every day. Yet it was his christian friends that were smoking every day. Also, he rejected me because in the end (this was 3 years ago, and we recently started talking again) because i would not follow god or his teaching, even though i provide more than enough logical reasoning why i don't believe in his god or any god. It wasn't a mere i just don't believe because the evil's done by religion, this was a 9 hour discussion of why i don't believe, all the evidence etc.....his final statement....why don't you just try to believe in jesus. My final statement, if you cannot respect my views then don't bother calling. I on the other hand, have friends of all religious and non religious backgrounds, i don't care, if your cool with me, i am cool with you, i won't tell you not to believe, and you don't tell me to believe. However now that we talk....the whole debate part is back.....it's annoying and i am already thinking it was a mistake to talk to him. If only his brother wasn't such a good friend.
Yes. I've never had someone suddenly drop their religion in the midst of a debate, but I've seen them drop their religion after the debate, when all those questions without religious answers have been swimming in their heads long enough to have got them thinking about it. Part of the problem is that some of them manage to throw the questions out after a re-brainwashing session from their local church. Still, it definately happens. From all religions.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
I have one full deconvert (although he wasn't that religious to begin with), and also others that have believed, or been influenced by, creationism, who I have successfully explained evolution to.
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Sorry for delay in my response. I have been on vacation (Wisconsin is beautiful, by the way).
You are correct in saying that I considered myself spiritual, at least for a short time. Prior to that I certainly considered myself a christian with all of the trappings that went with it. This included a deep distrust of atheists and all theists that were not lutheran.
I had had questions for a long time, but had been taught to believe that I should not ask them. It important also to understand that in the area of the country in which I live, it is not a question of 'do you believe' it is more of 'what church do you attend'. Once this question is answered, the usual prejudices make themselves known in the conversation.
For instance, I knew BGH had been raised catholic. As a lutheran I was taught that catholics are just about the most confused people ever and believed all sorts of crazy things. To me this is a significant part of why I walked away from organized religion a long time ago. It promotes hatred and bigotry.
That conversation with BGH was the first time I had talked to someone about religion who refrained from patting me on the head and telling me I just need to try harder.
I understand that part of my acceptance of what he was telling my was based on the fact that he is a friend. I am well aware of how intelligent he is and I trust him. He did not push anything on me (as I stated in my thread, I am way too stubborn for that to work) but he did answer my questions and encouraged me to test his answers.
I don't think it is possible to de-convert someone unless they already have doubts but it is possible to open someone's eyes if the questions are there. That applies to all levels of theism.
Sorry this is so long-winded but I did want to reply personally. As always, I will never be able to thank BGH for not only being my friend, but for treating me like a human instead of a freak for having questions.
When I've had long discussions with people, I notice that I seem to have more of an impact on the others spectating. When you have a crowd that gathers, and a debate about the existence of god will do that, the people around you pay close attention, and you can see from the reactions they have, that thye notice when the theist starts to project, commit fallacies, etc.
For the person you are talking to, they are committed to the opinion they are defending at that point, and it will take reflection later and time to have them see it themselves.
Talk to your intrlocutor as if you are talking for the sake of those listening. Not only will it temper your reaction to their irrationality (because you are not as concerned with their being convinced), but you'll come acroess as being less attacking (because you are not as interested in their agreement with you, but rather making the points that are rational).
My 2 cents.
shaun
I'll fight for a person's right to speak so long as that person will, in return, fight to allow me to challenge their opinions and ridicule them as the content of their ideas merit.
Shaun this is an excellent point!! Not to harp on him, but this has happened to BGH and it really is something to see when he takes on the holy janitor here. You are absolutely right! It isn't so much about the person he is debating with, but it is also about those listening. There is one person in particular that is starting to waver because of this.