Moderate Christians...
Offline While talking to a friend about how much i dislike christianity, he said that I should focus my energy on fighting fundermentalist Christians and not moderate Christians, he claims that mods aren't a threat and if faith makes them feel good then whats the problem? He also said that most charities are religious so that means religion is a forse for good as well as bad.
I have my own views and concerns about his viewpoints, but i need to ask: Am I being unreasonable for disliking and questioning moderate Christians?
Please post this reply addressing it to my friend Raymond (Uk) he admits he doesn't like fundermentalist Christians but he sits on the fence when it comes to questioning mod Christians.
I am going to e-mail him the replies to answer his question. I look forward to viewing your replies.
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Would you be unreasonable for questiong moderates of Odin, Mithra, or Horus (to name a few)? No, it's not unreasonable to question irrationality. Moderate Xtians still vote, and still bring their religious ideology with them to the polls. So they still effect us.
If someone wants to maintain irrational beliefs, they should be prepared to defend them.
ETA: clarity
"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."--Stephen F. Roberts
Pluralism is a value most of us share. Unless one finds a very small island one is not going to live in a world where everyone thinks and believes alike.
Yes, there are toxic beliefs: Christian fundamentalism and Islam being prominent examples. They reject diversity, oppose knowledge, persecute others and are foul in many other ways. These groups should be opposed--it is our duty.
I think it's a mistake to transfer our anger to all groups. I'm not a believer, but have no particular animus toward Unitarians, Quakers, many Jesuits, etc. Should I ?
Given some of the big issues we collectively face (environmental, political, social) it would be folly not to make common cause where we can.
Within the Christian tradition there are multiple beliefs. Can anyone here assert there is no difference between Jerry Falwell and Desmond Tutu? Billy Graham and Paul Tillich?
Maybe it depends on the source of the anger, but that's not the subject. I believe the effective way to counter Christian fundamentalism is with political action, not Atheist fundamentalism.
There's the argument that moderates legitimize fundamentalists. I don't really hold to that so I'll let one of the others pick that one up.
Personally it's the effect on the individual believer (and their children since they will hove no say in the faith they are raised in) that concerns me. Religion takes away freedom to learn, think and act. It also reduces self esteem and self reliance. These effects may be reduced in moderates but they are still present and prevent the believer from living fully.
Religion provides all the answers (they are wrong answers, but still answers) and when someone thinks they have all of the answers there's no need to keep looking, or even try to understand when a new answer is presented. Creationism is an example of this and it's not limited to the fundamentalists. I've known people who barely pass for christian insist that evolution is a fairytale.
Religion creates unthinkable thoughts. There is no reason for certain thoughts to be off limits but religion creates a situation where they are. This is probably to make sure the faith itself is not questioned deeply. Once again this is more prevalent in the fundamentalists but I've seen it in moderates too.
Some actions should be avoided (like theft and murder) but religion creates completely arbitary restrictions on actions that do not harm anyone. It also robs you of time when you could be enjoying life by making you waste it in church.
Christianity tells people they are born guilty and need to atone for it before they've even done anything wrong and church is all about sucking up to a being who it better than you could ever be.
When a christian has a problem they pray. They lack the confidence to solve a problem themselves. Then if the problem is soved by chance or someone else they give a fictional being the credit for solving the problem. even if the belief that a supernatual being is helping them gives them confidence to solve the problem they cannot take the pride they deserve in their own victories because in their mind they only did it with God's help.
Naturally when god (random chance) doe not answer their prayers the believe it's because they were unworthy.
Oh, a lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!
I just wanted to point out that the Jesuits are perhaps one of the worst fundie groups. The were more catholic than the pope, and his private army. Brainwashing was a specialty of theirs. One of my favorite sayings from them is "Give me the boy for his first seven years, and I'll give you the man" These were the people who tried over and over to assasinate Queen Elizabeth, the only moderate religious person of her time.
But I digress....When it comes to whats wrong with moderate religious people I echo Dawkins and Flemming. Moderate Christianity (or any religion for that reason) makes no sense. Jesus was only sorta the son of god? Your soul is in danger of eternal damnation, but don't worry about it? (Flemming) The existence of moderates cushions the blow normal fundies would have, and therefore enable the fundies to exist and operate more freely. The fact that moderates can "pick and choose" what parts of a religion to believe in, and what parts not to clearly shows they have the moral and decision making power necessary reguardless of religion. An irrational belief is still irrational no matter what parts of it you choose to believe in.
Thanks guys! I will be sending some of these helpfull points to my friend! I appreshiate everyones input and I am still open to more views.
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Their history as militants of Catholic dogma is well founded, at times horrific. I wouldn't refer to them as fundies--fundamentalism was an outgrowth of Protestantism. Some contemporary Jesuits have been active in dismantling the Jesus story, which I find interesting--but not my point.
Priorities, exigencies: I would work with Stalin and Torquemada to help stop global warming if there was a chance of success. I can't go with the premise that our first goal is eliminating all religion, then dealing with the environment, African genocide, terrorism and aids.
I share your interest in history. Be assured I am not a Jesuit.
[MOD EDIT - fixed quote]
Hi Dillips and welcome to the forums.
When you get a chance, we'd love it if you'd hop over to the General Conversation, Introductions and Humor forum and introduce yourself.
By the way, just have your friend read Sam Harris' The End of Faith. That should explain a lot of things.
Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.
Yeah, I agree, and I know you're not a jesuit
I just find them fascinating to study too. 