Atheism
Offline This topic is a continuation of a discussion I am having with BGH, though I ask everyone to chime in here.
Basically, BGH says that my refusal to define myself as theist or atheist is illogical at best and cowardly at worst. I'm not mad at what he's saying - theism is a belief in a god, not believing on one makes you an atheist by default.
What annoys me about this definition is that included in atheism are the things people do and say on this website that make it more of a belief than a default. First of all, the very existance of this site shows that there is a common belief in something - most groups are founded on beliefs, not lack therof. Second is the active anti-Christian and anti-religious overtones here as well. This is compounded by the foolishness called the Blasphamy Challenge. If you don't believe in God, why do something that flies in the face of society if not to make a political statement or simply state your beliefs? Hell, most here are so staunchly against religion I'd swear that in other times we would have declared holy war on Christianity a while ago(ironic term, isn't it).
The problem here is that we have two types of atheism - the definition, and the brand that the Rational Response Squad and others push so fervently. And the sad fact of the matter is that people like Brian Sapient and Richard Dawkins represent the whole of atheism to the average man. This would be like if all we saw and knew of Christianity came from the Baptists - many Christians might be unwilling to label themselves so if this was the only choice.
I am not trying to criticize anyone's beliefs here, I'm just trying to be honest and explain why I cannot identify myself as atheist.
I hope that when the world comes to an end I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to.
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Ok, you are saying that because we do share a common belief other then the lack of belief in god that should also be included in the def?
No it shouldn't anyone who lacks a belief in god is an atheist. We share many different beliefs, some believe we should be critical of religion, RRS and Dawkins. Others believe we should leave it alone and not talk about it , Michael Shermer. So what you have done is you see a group of atheist who believes the former, then conclude that all atheists believe the same thing. This is patently wrong.
But again, the only thing that connects all atheists on this forum is the lack of belief in a god, what the individual does with this lack of belief is another story.
You are an atheist, you may not be 'militant', you may be agnostic, you may not agree with things done by other atheists... you are still atheistic because you lack belief.
There are things done by the American goverment that I do not agree with but I cannot deny that I am an American citizen. It is not a belief system to be 'American', it is something you merely are.
Atheism is not a belief system, it is a lack of belief. As I tried to illustrate in the other thread the ONLY thing all atheists have in common is a lack of belief in deities. They can be pro-science/anti-science, spiritual/anti-spiritual, good people/bad people, intelligent/ignorant, happy and cheerful/sour and angry, tall/short..... in essence the list could go on and on. When it comes down to it, they only necessarily have one thing in common... LACK OF BELIEF.
That's it, it's that simple.
What YOU do with your atheism is up to YOU, and YOU alone!
It sounds like you just don't like the more aggressive atheists. You'd probably prefer bertrand russells style of debate to george carlin's style of shoving it down your throat as most reasonable people don't like having anything shoved down their throats but, this is precisely the type of behavior the whole world has been putting up with from christian control freaks for centuries. from children being forced to memorize bible verses to people being burned alive. from a flaming trash can full of beatles records to the library at alexandria. I realize it must be frightening to have been so controlled your whole life and to finally lay your eyes on people who refuse to submit but, I'm afraid I have no sympathy for you, its been a long time coming. as for me, when the world ends I will not breathe a sigh of relief. NO, when the world ends I won't do anything. I promise.
No, I don't think that all atheists believe the same thing, I just believe that in the public eye they do. The only atheists I ever hear of in the media are all very similar to the brand on this website.
BGH, I do understand what you are saying - by definition, all people who do not believe in a God are atheists. You are correct. But what you don't realize that the definition and the reality are different. Atheists are identified by the public by the people they see, and the fact is the face of atheism to the world is very different from my own.
And that last sentence of yours was beautiful.
I hope that when the world comes to an end I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to.
If you feel atheism should be represented different isn't it up to you to show another face of non-belief? I disagree with the statement that the only atheists you hear about are similar to the agressive brand you meet here. There are the Michal Shermer type who are "live, let live", there are the Bill Gates type that never really discusses his non-belief, there are the Dan Barker type who challenges state church seperation issues in court, there are the Mother Theresa type who hide it away and are deceitful by putting on a face of "faith", there are the George Clooney type who readily admits his non-belief but does not focus on it, and there are the type who founded this website, they agressively stand up and say, "your belief in magic and myth is not beyond question and has not earned respect, therefore it is not off limits and deserves scrutiny".
Basically just as any other thing you encounter in life, there are many different types that make up the whole and you cannot pick one brand and say they represent all. Do you feel Fred Phelps represents all christians? Do you think David Koresh is the face of christianity?
See above paragraph, not all atheism respresented in the public eye is the same or akin to the type you disagree with here.
LOL. Is this sarcasm?
So because of public perception, you are afraid to admit what you are? Are you afraid that a group of atheists is going to knock on your door one night and hand you a pitchfork and tell you that you have to help them hunt down xians? Just say no. LOL
BGH made some very excellent points and I encourage you to review them carefully. The one that struck me the most was the comment regarding American government and being an American. We don't always have to agree, but we are who we are.
And yeah, that last line was beautiful. No sarcasm.
To the world? or just to the US? I've lived in Germany, one of the more religious countries in Europe, and the word "atheist" doesn't have any stigma. Almost half of Germany is atheist, and no one bats an eye, not even the religious, when you identify yourself as such. There are even more atheists in other European and Asian countries.
If you don't believe in any gods, you're an atheist whether you call yourself one or not, although I understand wanting to avoid the many assumptions people can make, since I live in Texas. If people ask me what I believe regarding religion, I start off saying I'm not religious, and if they want clarification I explain that I don't believe in any supernatural stuff like angels and gods and ghosts, eventually easing the word atheist in at the end. In Europe, I could say I was an atheist and no one would assume anything. It was so much easier. Here in wonderland, most people make lots of assumptions, and I try to correct them by explaining my lack of belief beforehand. That usually minimizes their nagative reaction.
Do You Worship an Evil God?
Xamination,
If you want to hold to the standard you've set forth in your first post, than to be consistent you must also refuse to use the word "human" to describe who you are. Surely you're ashamed to have people associate you with the likes of Bin Laden, Napoleon, Kim Jong Il, etc... etc...
Man up... you're an atheist, try not to find ways around it that are so damn easy to poke holes through. We have labels that describe us. I don't whine about the title of "man" for fear that someone will equate me to the actions of other men that I'm ashamed to be related to, and there's a reason for that... I'm honest with myself and the world around me. Try it.
Vote for Democrats to save us all from the anti-American Republican party!
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In the wise words of NoFX.
So go ahead and label me
An asshole cause I can
Accept responsibility, for what I've done
But not for who I am
Don't call me white
Me neither. Too many white people have done too many things I'm ashamed of to be considered white. I prefer to refer to myself as not black, and not white, I'm somewhere in between. Also, don't call me man... I prefer to think of myself as a non woman non man, something in between the two because both types of people get bad raps for quite a bit of the shit they've done.
Vote for Democrats to save us all from the anti-American Republican party!
Please become a Patron of Brian Sapient
Thanks for the response everyone - I reaaly do appreciate it.
But Atheism is a minority in America, and rarely get their voices heard. The Atheists that get heard are loudest, and usually most extreme. No, I understand what atheism is to people here, but there is a very different view of it in my society.
No. I'm never sarcastic.
There's an interesting question in there: what do people think of when they think of "human"? The first thing that pops into my head is myself, but what does everyone else think? But back to the question, I would say that "human" is not a belief but is more existential. There is no real alternative I could call myself besides human anyways.
Man up? Is this a question of bravery?
Who calls you a man?
Besides, silly, you forgot about eunuchs.
[MOD EDIT - fixed quotes]
I hope that when the world comes to an end I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to.
If you read that back to yourself doesn't it sound like a cop-out?
You are essentially saying that because you feel atheism has some type of negative connotation in society you will not stand up for yourself say this is part of how you see yourself.
Homosexuality had a more negative cultural association until the gays started standing up for themselves and saying this is who we are, we are doctors, lawyers, butchers and athletes. They decided to change an insult that society used to denigrate them, they made it their own and showed they weren't afraid of a little 'word'. I am sure you know the term, 'queer'... their mantra was, "we're here, we're queer, get used to it." Society no longer could chastise them with a word they were proud of, they effectively took all of the power away from the insulting usage of the terminology.
Same thing for 'atheist', the more people who stand up, say this is who I am and I am not a bad person, the more likely atheists will be accepted in America. People will begin to see atheists are doctors, lawyers, butchers and athletes, they are just like everyone else but without the belief in mythology and magical gods. What has to happen though is people like you have to stop being afraid to admit it because you are fearful of the stigma that goes along with it.
Like I said before, you are an atheist. You can put your own face on atheism if you disagree with the more aggressive tactics. You can just be yourself and admit that you are an ATHEIST, that would be a great start.
Homosexuality was blasted as a whole though. If someone was gay, and all that anyone saw of gays were one's wearing pantyhose and speaking in Pig-Latin(purely hypothetical), he would be less likely to come out because homosexuality would be linked in peoples minds to that kind of outrageous behavior.
I do understand what you are saying though, BGH, but I'm still not sure I can call myself atheist yet. There may be too many mental blocks left from the past that keeps me from doing so - I don't know. But don't worry - you can call me atheist if you want to.
I hope that when the world comes to an end I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to.
Do you believe in a God(s)?
xamination, I sort of get what you're saying. I refrained from calling myself atheist for a time because I didn't want to confine myself to the sterile skepticism I perceived from the likes of James Randi (who I still have mixed feelings about). However, I think it was a speech by Sam Harris that pushed me over the edge. He addressed meditation, neuroscience, and developing fulfilling new disciplines, elaborated on by proper research, to explore the whole of the human experience (including the subjective). If you don't like what atheism means, it's up to you to flesh out other parts of the demographic.
Homosexuality was/is considered something unnatural and perverse still. Does that mean all homosexuals shouldn't speak out. By your reckoning they should just say, 'well, I'm not a hetero but I'm not a homo either'.
Shit, I lost my point. Anyway, who cares if people think you suck because you're an atheist. If you're an honest, decent human being and they don't like you because of your religious inclination or lack thereof, that's there problem. You should never change something about yourself to make someone else more comfortable with their own opinion.
Look, my mother, who is an atheist herself, still whispers whenever she talks about it. You know, like people whisper the word 'cancer' in a conversation as if saying it aloud might cause something terrible to happen. I think that's a useless thing to do. So I don't do it. If I make someone else uncomfortable because I simply state I lack a belief in god, it's really not my problem. It's theirs.
If god takes life he's an indian giver
You must understand then that atheism right now is also blasted as a whole.
You are saying that if gays felt all that was being represented in society was the more flamboyant brand of homosexuality they would be less likely to come out. I disagree. I think the gays who wanted to be treated as equals would come out and say, we are human, we are your brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles and friends, we want to be accepted. I think that is in essence what happened with the 'gay revolution'.
I am not trying to beat you into submission, I am only trying to get you to realize it is okay to be who you are and you can give your own face to atheism if you disagree with how it is perceived or how it represented.
Xam, it takes all types, I like to debate and discuss. In a face to face debate (which happens quite often at work, jce can attest to this), I like to ask a lot of questions and then let the theists see where the holes are in their logic and how theism does not make a lot of sense when looked at objectively. You might think I am too aggressive at times, but with the theists I debate regularly, I am respected because I am not afraid to say what I do not believe and why. We have great discussions without hard feelings and if anything I help them think about why they have faith a little more than they normally would under other circumstances.
There are all different types of atheists (you do not have to brand yourself 'aggressive' ), but until people stop being afraid to admit it and show all the faces of atheism we will be stigmatized by society.
LOL! Happens to me all the time!
Exactly!
Oh yeah. All the time.
Again, this could not be more true. At times I join the debates, but I tend to get a little emotional so I am working on that. The thing is, the people he debates really do have a lot of respect for him and I am gaining my own because I am working on my arguments (thanks to BGH, Pariahjane and this site) and I make my points. Women are a little different to debate so my technique has had to change, but I am getting there. (Off topic and probably should be moved to a different thread - women tend to debate the effects of religion more so than the actual beliefs held.)
At any rate, as BGH said, no one here is trying to force your hand, but please take the time to think about the posts here and find the strength to be who you are.