Thanks, and oh I know...the Bible is contradiction upon contradiction.

LL, welcome to the board. I really like the screen name.

And that difference appears to be that some Christians actions aren't desireable, however they still get into heaven.

Accepting Jesus Christ into your life is your free ticket to rape and murder. I'll agree that God can make a judgement call on who is actually a Christian, however I don't think you or any other Christian would want that as it may be you that is refused entry into heaven.

In the bible we see two versions of God. In the OT we see a vengeaful, wrathful, angry, jealous, god full of rage and violence. In the NT we see his "son" who is merely jealous and has small doses of violence, however we do see him claiming that he is here to enforce all of the old laws (even the violent ones). So, with that... from your perspective, while the actions of the Christian serial killer don't bode well for the moral conduct of Christians, it's actually not too far fetched that God could find the serial killers actions desireable and your actions undesireable. If God is to be making a judgement call, I think you have reason to fear, especially if you can so callously claim one isn't a true Christian... maybe it is you who is not.

What assurance do you have that if God is making a judgement call on heaven entry, and that heaven entry isn't merely accepting Jesus Christ into your heart, that you are getting into heaven over a Christian serial killer who murders only abortion doctors?

Have you ever heard of the No True Scotsman fallacy? You've bordered on falling prey to it. Essentially you must realize that someone who accepts Christ into their life is a Christian, whether you find their actions "Christlike" or not. Whether you find their actions desireable they are no more or no less a Christian then you.

You might want to read some of the things posted here and elsewhere - things in the Bible where God himself ordered some pretty evil/horrific things.

You said all you had to do is have Jesus then said kills don't get a free ticket. Which is it? Or is it both? Also I think a lot of people here could point out all the bad stuff in the bible that are in context, but those are other topics...

I left work and went to the gym before I had a chance to respond. This is my longest one yet. If you read it all…or at least portions that seem interesting to you, I give you my deepest gratitude for indulging me (a “crazy” Christian) in conversation.

I write this to the thinker in you guys. Please read this as you would any other philosophical argument. Once again, this is not a personal attack against any of you…I know where I am and what I am doing. Please receive this in the spirit with which it is given.

YES, you are desirable to your friends. I never said that. But apart from himself, how does God view you? I’m sure that you know the answer. The answer to that question is why God emptied (a paradox, read up on kenosis) himself to become man so that he could live a perfect life and then be treated as though he lived the worst life possible.

NO I am not ashamed to say that I fear God. However, my good acts are not done because of a promise of reward or a promise of punishment, but rather because I love God and desire to honor him with my life

Yes, it is.

The writers of the skeptic’s annotated bible would want you to believe that there is a contradiction within the bible when in reality they seek to skew the original meaning of the text to suit their damnable ends. YES, the earthly and temporal (I use the words as synonyms) consequences of certain sin is greater than others, however, the eternal consequences of sin is the same all around…death.

To address the issue at hand, the passage to which you are referring is a tricky one that is often misinterpreted. How can a man receive forgiveness when his entire disposition is contrary to God? And I’m here to tell you that a disposition that is contrary to God is NOT unique to blasphemy against the holy spirit. It is characteristic of all men who are apart from God...whether they accept it or not God, himself spoke it.How can one who completely rejects God ever come to faith and receive forgiveness UNLESS God begins a gracious work in that man’s heart and allows his eyes to be opened to the truth? John 1:29 speaks of the far reaching potential of Jesus’ sacrifice.

So…are you implying that a union that is steeped in sin apart from God and his commands is supposed to go according to what God says about marriage? Really think about that.

Here’s a quote for you:

"Free will without grace has the power to do nothing but sin...The sinner can choose his category, but he can't choose anything other than sin"

No matter how righteous the deed…it is sinful in God’s eyes. Why is it sinful? Because glorifying God is not the motivating factor for anything in your life. You may not have said it that bluntly, but I’m sure that you don’t disagree with that statement. Your marriage, though a noble deed, was sinful. Your divorce (despite the fact that your wife probably did not commit adultery), was sinful. This is not my opinion.

You don’t respond to tyrannical threats, but what about responding to gracious love?

God has been interacting with man since the beginning of time. Heaven is a place for people who love God. Biblically, I will worship him in the beauty of his holiness forever. I truly desire that. Seeing that the options are only an eternity with God, or an eternity apart from God…add to that the fact that you chose a fleeting moment, which was relatively long (I’m talking about your life), to deny God and to rebel against him, where else should you spend eternity? Why would you want to spend an eternity with the very being that you blasphemed against? Satan has blinded you from seeing the beauty of God. I was in the same state as you, but thank God for his grace. It is only by his grace that I am where I am today. I would also venture to say that it is only by God's grace that you are alive to read what I am typing.

Here’s a quote that speaks for itself:

“Love is to enthrall another person with what will make them eternally and infinitely happy; Namely, Christ…If there were a person in this room infinitely beautiful, infinitely worthy, infinitely valuable, infinitely satisfying[...]the most loving thing for that person to do would be to get attention from all of us and say LOOK AT ME!! LOOK AT ME!! LOOK AT ME!![…]but there’s nobody here like that. There is one being in the universe like that, there’s one all glorious being, one infinitely valuable being, one all beautiful being. God, in Christ crucified and risen and reigning and coming[…]And therefore in order for him to be loving he must say LOOK AT ME!! LOOK AT ME!! LOOK AT ME!!”

The question that I’m posing is this: “Do professing Christians who are also unrepentant murderers really have Jesus?” Repentance is a defining characteristic of a christian.

Dude, you totally missed it. Totally. I’ll quote paul again and then expound further.

“We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?"

How can live in sin if you died to sin? Were you ever truly crucified with Christ? Were you truly born again? Or are you just self deceived? Are you one of the people that God is talking about in Matthew 7:21?

Only an unregenerate heart can continue to live in sin after professing to have been changed. But if you profess that change while there is no evidence of a change, you are a liar and a fraud.

LL,

I have a 'righteous judgment' test that I apply to people who say they are christians.

It begins in Galatians 5:19 and continues to 5:26

Now, I understand that we are flesh according to this and as such we are prone to sin. However, A TRUE CHRISTIAN would 'walk in the spirit' and evidence the fruit of the spirit by their actions. Something which you previously mentioned as meaning more than just their declaration or affiliation with christianity.
In my experience and by my judgment, I have NEVER seen evidence of a true christian that 'walks in the spirit'. No human that I've ever come in contact with or witnessed has evidenced these nine traits of 'righteousness'.
Do I still look? Oh you betchya. I want to meet someone that nice. For the most part, if my appraisal of the individual agrees with one or more other people's judgment then I still try to get past my possible bias with regard to my skepticism.

Much like you, I have thought about the idea that:

However, if we are to look and see not then..... what? I understand that your answer might be that 'faith' is needed, but by the scripture faith is a 'fruit of the spirit' implying that the spirit should be upon you and growing before that faith can be manifest.

The first/4th paragraph you wrote sounds to me not much different from something from Osama Bin Laden. I am so glad the Christian God does not actually exist.

jcgadfly wrote:

Unfortunately, that came right after he wrote in Romans 4:15b,
"And where there is no law there is no transgression."
No law->no transgression. No transgression->no sin.
Romans 6:1-2 doesn't make sense because Paul had said that the law no longer applies to Christians..

What did I miss?

Paul says that believers are dead to sin. This was after he wrote that god's law doesn't apply to believers. .

Isn't sin a violation of god's law? If god's law doesn't apply to believers, they can't violate it. It would be like being tried here for breaking the laws of Japan.

If the believers can't violate god's law, they can't sin. Why talk about being dead to something in romans 6 that he said believers can't do in romans 4?

I came here knowing that I was fighting a battle that wouldn’t be met with:

“You know what, I never really thought of it that way. Thank God for Jesus”

All that I can do as a Christian is pray for you all and other of similar mindset.

God is all-knowing, I am not. Could God have prevented the fall? Yes. Did he? No. My take on things is that the fall of man wasn’t because God hated man, but rather because man is imperfect and God wants man to see that perfection is found in him. Through the fall, he is glorified. Is it selfish? No. It is loving. Please refer to the “look at me look at me look at me” quote.

Actually, it’s very clear to me that God hates the sin that people do. His righteousness does not allow him to not punish sin.

Messed up by whose standard? Yes, you are a rational being, but by God’s standard, you are irrational in that you deny him, his sovereignty and the perfection of his will.

That was an extreme example that would’ve placed me in the position of an Israelite in the old testament days. Under the new covenant established by Jesus Christ, no one is called to carry out God’s righteous judgement.

The bigger point is that to you, the will of God will sound crazy because you are a moral humanist. And your morality is relative, while God’s morality is absolute.

I’ll say it again: Contrary to what the skeptics annotated bible says, God’s word does not contradict itself. God’s spirit will counsel you in a manner which is contrary to what was breathed by God’s spirit in the scriptures. The heart is deceitful above all things. We can easily be lead astray by our convictions, while God’s spirit is saying otherwise. Satan is real and he is actively trying to keep man away from God’s perfection.

Why does God allow satan to exist? I’m not sure, but I can assure you that Satan’s end has been written.

God creates universe.
God creates man.
God knows that some men will deny and reject him.
God allows this rejection to happen.

Why? I do not know.

There was an established model for this rejection set when Lucifer rebelled against God with a third of heaven.

Israel had insanely intimate contact with God, and yet they chose idols over God.

There is even rebellion against God during the reign of Jesus (2nd coming). AFTER GOD CLEARLY SHOWS HIMSELF TO PEOPLE. No more faith involved in the encounter.

God created man the way he did for a reason. We die to sin, but we still choose righteousness over sin by sewing to our spirit man as opposed to sewing to our flesh.

I can choose to read stuff magazine, or I can read Christian literature.

I think that this is all that I can say. As I said at the start of this entry, I didn’t expect to come here and mass-repentance to be the result. I’ve been praying for you all since I came here. I know that you all couldn’t possibly care less about what I do, but that is what I’m doing.

this should read:

God's spirit will NOT cousel you in a manner that is contrary to what was breathed by God's spirit in the scriptures.

I tried editing it, but i couldn't.

And as a human you could embrace reason over prayer.

You know the first post I didn't respond to you, my apologies for that. Much of the reason I didn't was because you completely dodged the point. In this post you did it again, yes you answered what you think an answer could be, but the question still remains...

If god can't stand sin why did he create an abundance of it?

Now, new questions have arisen:

How can you think that it's loving to create man as imperfect in a system in which some are punished eternally? Let's take a 5 year old boy in Africa who has muslim parents as an example. How is it loving to send them to eternal torment for being exactly as god made him?

How does it glorify god to have made something imperfect and watch it fall? Sounds to me that would make god feel incompetent.

See this on prayer. (three seperate points)

Third point:
What is the purpose of prayer? What can a finite being on Earth possibly tell an omnipotent, omniscient deity that he doesn't know already?

1.) Humans can't change God's mind for he has a divine plan and is unchangeable.
2.) Prayer can't change God's mind.
3.) Prayer doesn't change anything.
(Prayer may make you feel better emotionally, but it doesn`t change God`s mind.)

Untrue. I actually like you, but it's probably just your screen name.

The main subject seems to be those going out spreading the word and what should be expected in this action.

And brother will give up brother to death, and the father his child: and children will go against their fathers and mothers, and put them to death. (people will kill there family over this, being "the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.")

Then they go into how you will be hated for this. Now if it is that people are killing people for believing you wouldn't they just kill you too and fix the problem? But if people are killing in your gods name wouldn't that be a bigger problem something which would be worthy of persecuting?

I will address this in as straightforward a manner as i can. If the wages of sinning against God is death, what does that literally mean? If you sin against God, and he as a righteous judge must punish sin, what is your punishment?

The answer is death.

Does it say some sin? Does it say these particular sins, but not these other ones? No, it is very clear....the wages of SIN is death. That means all sin. From covetousness to rape. They are equal because their doing requires an equal disregard for God and his commands.

If you are killed by God for sinning against him, you will say "Man, this is unfair", but that does not make the judgement unfair by the standard to which you are being held.

The wages of vehicular manslaughter is 20 years to life. If you commit vehicular manslaughter, would it be justifiable for a judge to say at your sentencing "you're free to go"?

Why, then would it be any more justifiable for God to dismiss sin?

Your next thought may be, but what about being admonished by God and then sent on my way to sin no more?

Have you ever received a speeding ticket? Why did you get it? Here's the answer: Because of a disregard for the established law. Did you learn your lesson at the time, or did you curse the cop under your breath for messing up your day? After getting your ticket, have you ever gone 60 in a 55 (what about 56 in a 55?), even though you know the upper limit is 55? Don't you remember how you felt when you were ADMONISHED for the first offense? If you've never gotten a speeding ticket, please indulge me, or put one of your lead foot friends in your place.

Why is it that not everyone gets pulled over for doing 60 in a 55? The common grace of the police officers on duty.

When someone does get pulled over for going 60 in a 55, are they guilty or innocent?

Just in case my point is unclear. God's sin limit is zero. Do you disregard his law by going 5 in a zero zone? You may ask: "But what about everyone else going 5?" God doesn't grade on a curve. Here's a cool metaphor for you: When God judges christians, though there may have been a point in their lives when they were going 5 in a zero zone, Jesus Christ serves as a retroactive radar gun blocker.

No one has a problem with the law until they get caught and it's time to pay the consequences.

To come back to the larger issue:

I think that you have missed the gravity of this topic. If I'm hearing you correctly as you're typing, you're stressing the word "religion". Like...it's messed up to kill people over religion.

Kinda like the statement. "I can't believe they shot him over $0.25."

You are inherently implying that the matters of God are meaningless...when in fact the very statement "The wages of sin is death" implies that the matters of God are a matter of life and death.

I hope that I answered your question clearly and adequately.

that's why you have to read the entire section to understand the context of the verse.

This section is talking about the persecution that christians will undergo because of the faith.

In the early church, and in most non-christian countries today, christians are persecuted/martyred on a regular basis.

Brother's will give up their christian brothers to authorities because they are christians. Fathers will give up their children because their children are christians. Children will rise up against their christian parents and cause them to be put to death because the parents are christian.

This is just an illustration of the division that will occur.

You have to read the entire chapter (specifically the verses leading up to the 21st verse to fully understand what that scripture is saying).

Voiderest-

Perhaps I can help. Deuteronomy is a message to the Jews living in a world surrounded by poly-theists. The Lord God brought them out from under the slavery of egypt...had personally appeared to the jews as a pillar of fire by night and a pillar of smoke by day...He provided miraculously food for them while they were wandering in the desert...He drove nations out before them who would have otherwise destroyed them...He always had mercy on his people who consistently disobeyed Him and tried to follow after the idols of the pagans..God had performed many miracles before this stubborn people...notice that the jews never argued whether or not He existed...and here in Deuteronomy God instructs them to kill those enemies who try to draw them away from what they know to be right...that is far more severe than perhaps it looks. These weren't innocent people having harmless discussions with the jews, but people who tempted the very people of the one true God to worship their own idols. This was necessary because God was establishing the Jews as His people and teaching them how to live, teaching them the truth about Himself, the only true God...how severe then for a pagan to try to tempt away the people of God to serve idols made of stone and wood. This was necessary for the survival of the Jews. But this was to the Jews, trying to be established amongst a world full of nations who would destroy them for worshiping not worshiping their man-made idols. This is a lesson in history from which we can draw much, but not a commandment from God for believers to kill non-believers. This was written for a specific purpose in time for the Jews.

Matthew 10:34-39 says specifically that Jesus did not come to bring peace on earth, not in the sense that people normally think of it. Jesus came to bring the truth, and the truth divides those who accept it and those who do not accept it. A man or woman who accepts the truth will be set at odds with those who do not accept the truth, even with his own family. It is not what Christians are doing to non-believers or vice-versa, it is what happens when one person accepts the truth and another denies it...they are set at odds...they are divided...it commands the christian not to compromise the truth even for his/her family. It tells us that to gain the eternal life that God offers us we must give up our lives to Him and stop following the course that we choose to take for ourselves.

Even you as an athiest believe that what you believe is the truth...and when Christians come along and disagree, you are divided. That is what the passage is saying.

I also just noticed that the last post before this was almost 3 months ago, but perhaps you will stumble back upon this. Have you thought anymore about this since?