Hamby,

 I could not agree with you more.  Well said.  I don't care how good the sex is, if you are not going to be compatable in the long run it isn't worth continuing for the long run (i.e. kids).  And the only way to figure out compatability is through asking questions.

LINK TO ARTICLE

to the OP: read this post I made on child indoctrination. I agree with everything Hamby said. Taking children that young(any age actually) is asking for later resentment and deluded minds. they will believe ANTHING at that age,and it will stay.

Sorry to be rude, but shouldn't you have thought of this before you got involved with a theist? Even a recovering one(who goes to church?) Don't make your kids pay like this.

[MOD EDIT: replaced link text.  On the new board, the link was not functioning.  -HD]

  Remind her that Jesus scorned the church religion B.S.

so they killed him and his message

and are still doing it.

I'm speaking as an adult who was terrorized  by religion as a child.  Even if my parents hadn't been religious, they had no control over what I heard in Sunday School, church and the fundamentalist Christian school I attended.  Would you really let your impressionable children be exposed to the doctrines of original sin and hell?  Not all Christians believe the same thing.  What the pastor says in church may not be what the Sunday School teacher says when he / she is alone with the kids.  And kids are not always forthcoming when it comes to talking about something that scared them.  I know I wasn't.  Personally, I wouldn't let kids out of my sight near a church and I sure as hell would not take them to a church on purpose.

Plus, sexual predators hang out at churches because they know the kids are taught to do what adults say--without question.  I know of many sexual predators that used the churches and schools I attended as their own personal preying grounds.  One of them asked my mother if I could go with him into the church to help him find his bible.  After several incidents and a trial that took approximately 1/8th of my life, the church took the side of the predator and the court let the guy cop a plea.  Then there was the pastor / teacher who molested little boys until he was caught.  One of the boys committed suicide.

(My community was very small.  Nearly everyone knew everyone else.  There were about 80 to 100 students in the school - K through 12.)

This sort of thing is not limited to the Catholic Church.  I don't have statistics, but I bet it is just as rampant in Protestant churches.  The only reason we know about the Catholic problem is because they are organized.

Religion is poison and allowing it near impressionable children is unconscionable.  That opinion is not very popular in society at large, but it is one I hold very strongly.

Geirj, I want you to take this in the nicest possible way because you're a very valuable poster here, and I respect where you're coming from pretty much all the time.  Having said that, I really, really hate this argument tactic.  This is slightly less insulting than when a theist says, "You can't talk about my theism because you don't believe it, so there's no possible way for you to understand it,"  but only slightly less insulting.

The reason science is better than theism is because you don't have to be a bird to understand bird behavior.  You just have to trust the evidence and the scientific method.  While it's true that a person who isn't married to a theist can't claim to have felt the emotions in such an arrangement first hand, and a childless person can't claim to have experienced the complex emotions inherent in parenthood, it's damned insulting to suggest that they can't understand the emotions and complexities.  Any competent scientist with an accurate understanding of human psychology can understand parenthood in the same way he understands, say, the dynamics involved in drug addiction.  We don't insist that all psychologists spend several years of their life addicted to crack before they can counsel crack addicts.  Why would you insist that a person be a parent before they can speak about parenthood.

I've noticed that most of the time when people resort to this tactic, it's because they don't have anything better to bring to the table.

Since you're not the parent of a teenager who's been raised in a mixed religious/atheist household, I'd say you're less than qualified to diagnose your arrangement.  It's pretty easy to think it's great before the kids are in preschool.

(See.  It's a pretty crappy argument, isn't it?)

We're all entitled to our opinions on this matter.  I'd just like it well understood that this whole "you're not qualified to talk about this" thing is not a legitimate argument, and doesn't contribute any validity to your opinion.

Just be honest with yourself.  Do you really believe that your children will be terrorized in Sunday school?  As I grew up in a christian family I never had nightmares of burning in hell because I lied to someone.  Most of my problems came from my parents who always felt that I wasn't religious enough.

Think about what really concerns you about sending your children to church.  I have witnessed your situation in the past.  Families are torn apart because of it.  Seriously.   Churches see the non-religious parent as a danger to the child and seek to 'protect' the child from it's influence. 

Once you understand why  YOU have a problem with it, try to articulate your reasons in a way that your wife can understand.  For example, don't go on a rant about how evil the church is; she probably wont listen, and you'll make the situation even worse.

From your description it does not sound like your wife is fully indoctrinated, at least to the extent the catholic church would normally like to see its members. Nor does it sound like you and your wife have given much time to discussing the issue of religion at all up to now.

On that basis I am assuming that your question is being asked before your wife's full committment to sending the children to church has been ascertained by you. You are, in other words, making an assumption based on her affiliation to the church that she will naturally want the children to attend mass etc, and wondering how you can voice your opposition to this.

I would suggest therefore taking the exercise in a series of steps. The danger in these situations (and by "situations" I mean handling differences of opinion between couples, not necessarily questions of religion at all) is that one acts on assumptions that are in fact false, thereby opening possibilities of further misunderstanding, needless friction, argument and discord where in fact little or no grounds for these things really existed.

Firstly you must find out your wife's rationale. Many people send children to church simply because it's "done". Others (even non-religious people) weigh the social consequences as heavier should they not do so over if they should. Others are on automatic pilot in this regard and need only the gentlest of nudges to wake them up to the implications of their actions. You really need to talk to her first and foremost about how strongly held her opinion is, should she hold one at all. You don't even need to say at this point what your own view is - and especially if in doing so you merely cause her to be more entrenched in hers.

What you do next depends very much on what you learnt in the first step. If your wife is open to discussion on the matter then discuss it. Prepare in advance a list of reasons why you feel it will be detrimental to your children's welfare and well-being to risk indoctrination into a mindset that is designed to control the way they think. Make your points as specifically as possible. Don't embark on a quasi-theological debate about the pros and cons of rational thought over superstition. Accentuate instead the real danger of corrupting the (hopefully) evident signs exhibited already by your children in their own inimitable and personal way that they have already begun applying curiosity and rational assessment to understanding the world that both of you have brought them into. Demonstrate and stress their sense of wonderment at discovering things for themselves and their immense satisfaction when they do so. Provide examples to show that your opinion is not based on some atheistic theory but simply on valuing your children, and your encouragement that they should grow up as intelligent, independent people. You get the picture.

If, on the other hand, your wife is unwilling (or unable) to discuss the issue, then attempt a compromise. Not because you want them to be "half christian" but because evidence suggests that children with at least one parent grounded in reality have a better than fair chance of growing up to be people for whom rational thought means something. Explain that you are opposed in principle to almost every value your children are being made to forcibly adopt through her action, and that you - as a responsible parent - will do your utmost to correct every misconception and superstition they will receive, or even are likely to receive. Explain that you have no alternative but to do this as to do otherwise would be dishonesty on your part. It is up to her to decide whether her received religious values when acted on would include forcing someone into being dishonest, and if they do then maybe they are values that deserve a little scrutiny. That's her problem, not yours.

But in correcting their miseducation do not adopt the extremist approach. Question your children's take on religion as they express it and cause them to question it too. Let them discover the inaccuracy and innate irrationality of religion on their own terms, with nothing more from you by way of guidance than simple statements of fact and observation. Accentuate at all times scientific rationale and the joy of discovery. Do not, in other words, fall into the trap of thinking that indoctrination from one source merits or requires counter-indoctrination from another (you). And above all do not let your wife think that this is your strategy either. There is a real risk if you go down this road that the issue will overshadow all of your relationships within the family (a unit open to enough external stresses without introducing more from within). And I need not remind you of the adolescent's normal reaction to being preached at in any case, should you adopt that role at home in the cause of godlessness!

Play it by ear, never underestimate your children's own individual take on what's happening, take each step as it comes and, above all, keep it real. Good luck.

I'm an equal opportunity arguer.  Glad to help.

I will have to disappoint you a little, though.  You're the only person yet who doesn't seem to understand why my comments were relevant, so I'm going to avoid a lengthy threadjacking.  Should another question ever come up about the best way to raise a child, and you disagree with me, I'll call you out on the ad-hominem of "You're not a parent, therefore you're wrong."  If I offer an opinion, it is backed with data.  I don't have time for parents who think that personal anecdotes are valid arguments against data.

 I'm going to pile in here in support of Geirj. Hamby, it is the content of your comments that makes it obvious that you have little experience with marriage or child rearing. People like Geirj and I don't just throw that out there as an ad hominem because we want to discredit you. You should know by now that neither of us want to do that. It's nothing to be embarrassed about: I didn't know shit about marriage until it happened to me and I don't know anyone who did. Note I'm not saying that it is impossible to know anything about marriage and kids without experiencing it, just that it is clear that you don't have the perspective on these matters that would come from experience. I know, I know, you have done a lot of research. Believe me, the most in-depth, long-range, multi-participant study ever invented could never begin to scratch the surface of the complexities Geirj and I deal with every day.

The idea that two people would find out everything they need to know about each other and come to mutual agreement on all important points before getting married is a great one on paper. Unfortunately, it is impossible. There are just too many things to have opinions about in this world for everything to be discussed and agreed upon in advance. There are so many things that it is probably statistically impossible, even with 6 billion people to choose from, that you would ever find someone who does agree on everything. Add to that the human reality that people who are in love want to be together and do not want to enter into terminal disagreements that will destroy the relationship. That has a pretty serious chilling effect on any controversial conversations.

I realize that this is an argument from irrationality, but you show me a rational marriage and I'll show you a marriage doomed to failure. Marriages happen and work because people fall in love with one another and share a determination to be together even when it is impractical, inconvenient and even painful.

Even leaving all that aside, it is not uncommon at all for people's opinions to change over time. Many people go into marriage with no intention of having their kids baptized or attending church, then find they feel completely different once the kids are actually old enough to do these things. Should one party be blamed because the other changes his/her mind?

I don't think it is necessarily true at all that the kids will be all fucked up because the parents disagree on religion. The important thing is that the parents love each other and the kids and that everyone knows that. The other important thing is that no one in the family lets the issue of religion become more important than the love thing. It is also helpful if the parents work together to compromise and make sure the kids cannot use the religion issue as a wedge to play one of them off against the other. It is true that often all this stuff doesn't happen. It is also true that it often does. It is even more true that kids are very resilient and are capable of surviving and thriving even in families where the parents are carrying out low-level war over issues like this.

In the final analysis, there are no perfect circumstances for marriage or child rearing, but, obviously, people have to try anyway. I wouldn't get all pissed off at people for getting into situations that are suboptimal when optimal situations are nothing but a Hollywood fantasy. 

...So, because you didn't know what marriage would be like until you were married, and nobody in your social network knew what it would be like until they were married, it must be incomprehensible to the bachelor (however educated)?

Actually, that's exactly wha you just asserted. Almost word for word.

This is exactly the same argument as, "Well, of course I can't prove God. He's beyond human understanding. You just have to trust me and feel the Holy Spirit moving through you for yourself."

Basically, you're saying that marriage is this mystical social contract, floating above and beyond what empirical study might be able to tell us. And, of course, without supplying any supporting statement beyond, "Aw, c'mon. Just trust me, man."

 EDIT: If you guys want to take this one to the mat with me or whomever, I started a new thread so this one doesn't get derailed.

I married a fundamentalist Christian right out of high school. I was young, she was young. We had a child when we were 20. I was in the army at the time (great way to pay for college, as long as a Bush isn't in office).

At the time, I was agnostic. Though I was an atheist, I still thought we just didn't have enough information to determine God doesn't exist. (Now I know better.)

We got divorced after five years. Don't get me wrong -- my wife was great. She rarely tried to convert me, and after a couple of years, even began to open up to me. We had a talk about our 3-year-old daughter wearing God t-shirts. (My argument: "That's about like me dressing her in a beer T-shirt." She understood how I felt, and it never happened again while we were married.)

Her friends kept trying to convert me, of course. We were even ambushed at a dinner once. She'd invited a nice couple from church over for dinner, and the man showed up with a buddy, and left the wife at home. THAT was an uncomfortable evening. I was much too polite to tell them to get the fuck out of my home. As I said, I was young.

Eventually, she admitted to me that she believed there was a huge conspiracy among scientists to discredit the existence of God. All physicists, biologists, and geologists were in on it, as they all had evidence for an ancient earth, and evolution, and whatnot. As I was a physics major at the time, it kinda put a little stress on our relationship. After all, she was an intelligent woman; how could she not see how ridiculous her position was?

Anyway. We got divorced, my daughter has been raised fundamentalist, and is now 20, and attending college. She's never held hands with or kissed a boy, so there are some advantages. But it makes relating to her, and with her, very hard sometimes.

So let me assure you, I do understand marriage, and children, and the issues with a marriage between theists and atheists.

I wouldn't trade in my daughter for any other person on earth. I wish I could've been there every day, to help counteract the influence of her fundamentalist upbringing; but she's a good kid, and though she supported Huckabee, she has a good head on her shoulders. I have had emotional pain from only one source, and that is my daughter. Not because of her, but because of all my regrets and hurts and frustrations. I'm sure it can't be easy for her, either.

Theism is a big deal. Marriages between theists and atheists are difficult at best, as the theist will hurt every time they think of their loved one going to Hell. The atheist will hurt every time they find out a new nugget like their wife thinks the atheist is part of a conspiracy to destroy God. Both of you hurt thinking the other has a thinking deficiency. Having children compounds the issue, as the theist will see it as a battle for the soul of the child, and the atheist will see it as a battle for the sanity of the child. Coming to terms with this before having children is the only responsible thing, but there's no easy way to compromise.

At least, that's my experience. I was married to a fundie, though, so other experiences will probably differ.

Now that made me laugh. Holy shit that's funny.

It's always boggled my mind how people can get married without discussing things like this. Or even become pregnant and not even bring up "Hey, what about your religious beliefs and our kids?"

Like whaa?

I will take a different tack than the majority of responses. First, find out exactly why she wants them to go to church. Does she want them to be religious, or is she looking to expand their social circle? Is she looking for cheap babysitting? If the answer is anything other than looking for a religious upbringing, then simply come up with an alternative to church. Suggestions range from martial arts to swimming to various other non-religious activities.

I suggest this because recently I have encountered a number of people who send their kids to church for reasons that have nothing to do with religion.

So this is actually a really good point. My mom took us to church because we moved all the time and never had a community or friends - church seemed to be an easy tactic to meet people and be involved in fellowship and events.

Granted, I still experienced very similar social problems as I did at school because the church-goers were actually even more arrogant than the 'normals' at school and in the neighborhood, and my mom never lasted in a social group at church because they figured out she was relatively poor in comparison or not a feminist advocate or not as young or just not welcome in their cliques.

Deterring yourself and others from the 'social' aspect of church-going is a great way to express what a horrible idea it is in the first place, and to identify the real issue that provides the first step in finding the solution to the actual problem of the lack of the community feel.

But it would be be intolerable for me if a helpless child of mine was going to be pushed into church. I experience the torment of a fundy upbringing every single day.

Could I force the same thing into the mind my own child? Nope. God belief would be a deal-breaker for me - even if my partner was too thoughtless to understand the damage it might cause.

Is marriage a balancing act? Of course it is. But I'd be doing my log dance a long way upriver from the point the OP is at today. If I found myself in this position I'd be hostile without a shadow of a doubt.

I know it's about compromise and I'd compromise on her maxing my credit card and dragging me over to her parents place twice a week and anything else I could afford or tolerate. But not this.

And um. Yeah. I'm divorced.

"I experience the torment of a fundy upbringing every single day."...

This puts a gnarl on my face.

I have to jump in here:

  Do you really have no problem with your kids beeing exposed to such indoctrination, and being confused by this? I mean your kids are going to reach the age of reason and mature beyond that to make there own decisions on the matter anyways, but are you really unconcerned about the potential power that exists in religion.  It has the power to take ANY one, as shown by many rational athiest who were had by it's drug for many many years.  Some that get hooked can never be taken away, no matter how much you poke holes in there arguments and point out flaws.  At that point there mind is already had, which started of with the indoctrinating ground work.  You are allowing the groundwork to be laid, you as well as I hope your kids grow up to be rational adults and choose to disregard the myth of Christianity , but you and I both know better than anyone the power these religions have over people, and especially the power these religions have over the young mind.  I just don't understand how you can allow the groundwork to be laid.  But different strokes for different folkes I guess, I certainly could never allow my kids to go to church, I know the kind of things they tell kids there.  I know the potential power the church and religion have over believers, I would be terrified my child would become one of the "had" teens that grow up to be "had" adults who you can never get back. 

Gotta say, lots of interesting viewpoints in this thread (yes, I know the thread is a little old).  I came across this site because of this thread, and because I'm in a similar situation as the OP.  I'm thinking some of the later comments are probably the most accurate for my situation.  My wife is taking my kids (ages 2 and 3) to a bible study thing, mostly for recreation, as she's always trying to find something 'fun' for the kids to do (to the detriment of her own free-time/sanity).    She used to do these functions as a kid, and always remembers them as a lot of fun.  (They're sort of a summer carnival sort of thing, not the traditional bible study situation, but nevertheless, still potentially damaging).  I worry most about the 3 year old (almost 4).  She has an amazing mind, and is not just inquisitive, but already thinking critically about nearly every situation.  Still, i know how good the church is at breaking that down, and she's just so susceptible at this age.  She (the 3 year old) is also very strong headed, and she already challenges me on almost everything, which to a point, i respect, but I fear that she may not listen to my contradictions of what she hears from the 'fun people' at the church.

I'm not really here looking for advice, mostly just to find others that would relate.  I've pretty much been a rational thinker my whole life, even though I was going to various churches with friends/family for most that time.  I don't feel church is necessarily a bad or evil thing, there are many in out population that simply lack the rational thinking skills required function in society, without SOME sort of guidance from the church.  I'm far from a 'combative atheist', but I feel there is an age to be exposed to religion, and 3 is far too young.

The "social aspect" is the primary reason for going to Church, if I had to make a guess. I've said as much already, but it bears repeating. It's also true that theists tend to put a carrot at the end of a stick in the form of "afterlife", but the primary reason for most mainstream religions is 'siblinghood beyond family, nation, and station in life', which might explain how so many religions have become so viral over the millenia.

I've seen this just like Superman or the Easter Bunny analogy suggested a lot in helping children to fend off the crap they might hear in Sunday school. I'd just like to warn caregivers of children to be careful with this. A friend of mine was the nanny for a really nice, and somewhat well-educated, smart kid of about 8 or 9, I'd say (he might have been younger, it was a long time ago). It was right after Jurassic Park came out, and the kid and I had both seen it. Somehow we got on the topic, and I said "yeah, it was great, the special effects were really fantastic!" He says "what special effects?" And my friend had to gently remind him, "you know, the effect of making the dinosaurs. Dinosaurs aren't real (alive), right?" "Oh, yeah!"

As believable as photo-realistic CGI can be, I fear that stories might be even more insidious because they allow children to use their own imaginations to fill in the blanks. And we all know how vivid a child's imagination can be. Even though this kid knew dinosaurs are extinct, he still didn't register that incongruity while watching the movie.

Wait wait wait...you think the fact that your TWENTY YEAR OLD daughter has never had any contact with a member of the opposite sex is a GOOD thing????

*facepalm*

Same exact experience here. I found the cliques were exactly the same for the most part, but with self-righteous judgment attached to it, as well. And the times when it did seem I was being accepted in, even at the socially fragile and confusing age of 13-14, I could still just SENSE that there was something fake about it, without value. In other words, if you're only being friendly to me because Jesus told you to, what good is that to me? Those aren't REAL friends, quite the contrary.

You're going to have find something a less-recently-posted-in than 1 day.

You don't seem to grasp the (admittedly slang) concept, unless of course Kayoubi is your sock puppet.