A fan of Ray Comfort doesn't believe we exist
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----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: Howie
Date: Aug 10, 2006 1:20 PM
Well I see you've decided you want to be added to my friends list. Well I'd like to have contact with you through MySpace, but because of your Space I couldn't allow that to be something anyone would view from My MySpace. Sorry, so what made you ask anyway? How did you find me? And I take it, you don't believe in a God? ok, I don't believe in Athiest! First to be an Athiest you'd have to prove or have absolute knowledge of the Universe and more to say there is no God. The fact is you don't know for sure, so really your an Agnostic? Its like me saying there is no gold in China as a fact without first having absolute knowledge of every square inch of China! Ok, lets have a civilized conversation, what do you say?
Howie
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I don't know why this is even posted here, as the RRS totally handed that moron Ray Comfort his ass when he was on the show (not sure what exact episode, and I'm too lazy to look it up.) Also, look up under "irrational precepts" the thing about atheism vs agnosticsm.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
Howie,
That is a strawman fallacy. We are not asserting that we know everthing and after deliberating on this infinate knowledge we concluded that there is absolute proof that no god exists.
BTW, no is asking you to "believe" in Atheists.
To be an Atheist one does not have to prove there is no god. Rather, we see no evidence that there is one.
I will not beieve in a thing that has no evidence to support the claim.
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. - Seneca
It was show # 7 by the way.
You can't prove a negative. Simple as that. We don't need to prove a negative either, it's up to the people making the claim to prove god's existance. We don't think they have done so, so in turn, we don't believe it to be true. I will use your example. You claim there is gold in China.......I ask you to prove it. You then tell me that a single book says so (one that is also filled with contradictions) , but that is all you can give me, I just have to have faith with what you tell me to be true. But I can't just take your word for it, so until you can actually prove to me that there is gold in China, I don't believe you.
Funny. He definitely doesn't want people linking to a site filled with atheists. Why is that, exactly? If I read the bible right, he should be sending all of his christian friends here to witness to us. Why wouldn't he want them to do that?
Does he know that by not telling all of his friends about this website, he's disobeying Jesus? Someone should tell him.
Actually, I think I might just do that.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Here's the message I sent to Howie:
Hey, Howie!
I read your post on the Rational Response Squad board, and I thought you should be made aware of something.
R.R.S. as you know, is a website populated by lots and lots of people who don't believe your god exists. In your good book, it says, "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."
I read that whole chapter, and I couldn't find anything that made me think it wasn't talking to every christian.
So here's my point. Why wouldn't you want to send all your christian friends the link to the website? By not making them aware of the place, you are denying them the chance to preach the gospel -- not only to the atheists at that website, but potentially to the whole world! It is the internet after all.
I think you owe it to all of your Christian friends to give them the chance to witness. Jesus clearly commanded it, and your decision not to allow your friends to do their duty doesn't seem consistent with the bible.
Or maybe you're worried they'll be deceived and led astray? Wouldn't god protect their souls if they were trying to do his will?
Anyway, I hate to see someone leave the board. I hope nobody was rude or demeaning to you. I know I speak for the majority of the posters there when I say we'd like to get the chance to discuss things with you. Can you in good conscience turn down an invitation to convince us that your god exists?
Hope to hear from you again soon!
B
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Here's the problem with your statement @ Howie
YET gold and China exist. So how can you use this as an example for god-talk?
So you don't believe in George Carlin, William Shatner, Katherine Hepburn, or Carl Sagan?
Watching Star Trek must be hard.
"Dohooy, who is this Captain Kirk? I see no Captain Kirk!"
What in the name of boston baked beans are you talking about?
Atheists are atheists, becuase they have yet to recieve reasonable evidence of a god.
Remember: Theism is a positive and has to be proven.
Now my good sir, do you belive in Thor, Thoth, or Zeus?
You must believe in them (and their respective pantheons), because (According to you) you have to know everything.
You mean a weak atheist?
Ah, but the thing is, you are making NEGATIVE CLAIM
Two things about it:
1. It's a claim
2. the people making the positive claim ("There is gold") have to prove it.
I say study a little first, these arguments are older than a forgotten easter egg, and have dismissed a thousand-thousand-thousand-thousand-thousand-thousand times before.
This is precisely the fallacy we are discussing in the agnostic thread, where someone tried to argue that a person without any belief at all in theism is still a theist by default!
To be a theist is to hold to the tenets of theism.... to not accept them is weak atheism. Weak atheism is the fallback position. So the writer here is creating a shifting of the burden of proof fallacy (i.e. believing that there is a burden of disproof!) as well as confusing atheism with strong atheism - the rejection of theism.
We'll always have to be around to correct this error, as theists are biased towards it for two reasons: one, it speaks to their intellectual laziness in wanting to hold to theism without any reason (faith) and it speaks to their fear of the concept of atheism: if there are people who can live without theism, then how can they account for it in a world that they believe is run by an all powerful, all loving god who must make himself known to everyone?
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
Hey, well its come to my attention a day or so ago that one of 2 or 3 messages I wrote was posted here....so lets chat...
First I want to say I don't think I know everything, in response to a comment I saw.
Also, I'll chat as long as your civil, I'm not even asking you to be nice...
And I'll post again once I read all the other posts
feel free to contact me on yahoo IM?!!!!
ru_a_goodperson
HowietheChristian
I decided not to do so because there are younger Christian children who see my Myspace account and I didn't want them to view some of the images or language I saw. God promised that He would not let a believer fall away, so I wouldn't be afraid to let other Christians see a link to RRS. However those who do fall away I make the statement that they never truely believed to begin with. Also I don't know of any other Christians on MySpace, thats not to say there are non, so really the only reason I didn't want to add RRS as a friend on MySpace was for the younger ones. (I was a youth leader where I used to live and some of the kids kept contact on my Space)
HowietheChristian
ok, lets cut to the chase.....you mentioned contradictions in the "book" in your response....well I understand you acturally ment the bible...I'll tell you what, I've read the bible, compared verses, even looked at posted proposed contradictions and checked them out. The fact is there are none. Just so you'll be happy about it I'll be happy to take any submitted "contradictions" and explain to you what the verse means so you'll know its not a contradiction.
HowietheChristian
Ten Thousand Dollar Offer!
http://www.tenthousanddollaroffer.com/
As many of us were believers at one time and are now athiests (quite a few after a thorough reading of the Bible), that promise of God you claim is broken.
The "no true Scotsman" fallacy you follow up with doesn't help your case. Your God should be able to work without your rationalizations, shouldn't he?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
No thanks, Howie. Not going to fall for a rigged test.
You and other Ray Comfort disciples would just accuse me of lying when I said I hadn't broken the comandments and weasel out of forking over the 10 grand.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Fucking stupid. That test is totally rigged. And he's afraid to link to this site! LOL!! Link to my video, bitch!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Caeh5j-Q7wE
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
If I said there is no Columbia Clothing Company would I then have to prove it? No, But the next time you go to the mall to would have proof cause guaranteed somebody will be wearing Columbia's clothing and Columbia puts labels on their stuff that say Columbia right on it. (the Columbia company was a random pick)
Now you say you don't see any evidence of God or a god, but if you walked outside there are trees, grass, bodies of water, other people and all sorts of things God made.
HowietheChristian
well, its not my test I just posted the link. And...the issue is nobody has kept the ten commandments! Thats why the guy who backs the test put it up...he'll never have to pay out....
HowietheChristian
Grow a brain moron! The fact nature exists does not prove there is a god. Sorry to be so blunt, but damn!
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
No, the issue is that the test giver refuses to believe that anyone has lived life without breaking a commandment so he's always able to weasel out.
Never mind the fact that he has to break a commandment to give the test (He has to lie about giving out 10 grand to get people to take the test).
But lying for Jesus is OK, right?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
And yet you can offer no proof that your God exists or made any of the examples you claim.
I only have one eye and it's rolling
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Tell you what, Howie, start working on these and get back to us:
www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html
Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown
well, you seem to exist? Not only am I looking at your picture infront of the silly badge, but your communicating with me! So since you exist, can I then know your parents exists? Yes I can. Fact: you can not be here unless your parents existed! Fact: that painting hanging in your house could not be there onless a PAINTER created it! Fact: the building your in right now can not exist unless a BUILDER existed to build it! So if you go out to the beach and find a sand castle you wouldn't assume the waves crashing against the beach over time formed the castle would you? No that would be dumb! And if you went to the park and sat under a tree and found that 20 leaves were laying there all the same direction, color, and shape, side by side, you wouldn't say wow, thats amazing! the wind caused these leaves to line up! No..thats silly! You would assume somebody was there before you, who put them there in that way.
Creation:Creator
HowietheChristian
But you can't prove the creator was your God. That seems to be the crux of the matter.
Solve that little problem and we'll talk.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
your selfrighteous and proud if you think you or anyone else can HONESTLY keep all the commandments for their entire lives! take the test and acturally be honest you've never lusted, stolen, lied, hated, you always obeyed your parents and therefore honored them? Give me a break? You always did everything your parents asked of you without complaning or saying no?
HowietheChristian
the creation is proof of the Creator! How can you not see this?
HowietheChristian
Look, I don't need to take the test - I know better. Granted, some of the things I don't consider sinful (atheist, remember?)...
He had to intentionally deceive to bring people to the test, didn't he? Where's your moral indignaiton for that?
Care to answer why you and the test giver think it's OK to lie for Jesus?
Personally, I can see where Christianity can be liberating. Christians can do things that are reprehensible to the morals of society and even in direct violation of the edicts of their God. If they get caught, all they have to do is pray to their God, ask for forgiveness and promise not to do it again (until it's convenient/beneficial for them to do so) and go on with their lives believing that they're pure and headed for their Heaven.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
If you want to stretch it that way, the creation is proof of A creator.
You have no proof that said Creator is the character you call God.
I do admire your tenacity.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
What lie is there concerning this test? And I realize your an Atheist who doesn't see all the ten commandments as sin but even if you saw 1 of them as sin and broke that one your still not be able to say you kept the commandments you agree are sinfull!
And what lie, again?
HowietheChristian
I checked the 10 Gs offer and still find no lies! Sure it uses 10 Gs to get people to ask themselves if they've kept the commandments! IF THEY CAN PROVE to have kept all ten!
HowietheChristian
ps. I gotta head out for the day, thanks for the conversations...be back tomorrow.
This mole on my neck is proof of skin cancer... oh snap!
Tee hee, polytheism.
What lie?
The test giver makes a $10,000 offer knowing that he has no intention of giving the money away. Lie=a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.
Are you trying to be obtuse? Or are you just fighting to defend reprehensible behavior done in the name of your God?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Yep. Christianity is a polytheistic religion. They just call their version of it Trinitarianism because they don't want to own up to worshiping three gods.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
I could try and explain the problems of the cosmological or design argument, but since I have already done so elsewhere, I'll just link you to a counter-apologetic article I have helped contribute to and an essay I have written.
The Cosmological Argument
(from ironchariots.org)
Refutation of the kalam argument. the kalam argument is a variation of the cosmological argument that contemporary apologists still use today.
In short, if the universe needs a creator because everything needs a creator, why doesn't god need a creator? Why the unsupported special pleading? Why is god arbitrarily different?
Saying God is different because that is what God is is another way of trying to define God into existence, just like the argument from design.
Shaun
I'll fight for a person's right to speak so long as that person will, in return, fight to allow me to challenge their opinions and ridicule them as the content of their ideas merit.
Can a newborn baby request the prize?
You might assume someone was there before you and created all this stuff, but then you would look into the matter further to see if your assumptions met the tests of evidence and logic. Or rather, you would if you weren't a fundamentalist wacko.
Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown
So If I offered you 1 million dollars to run from NY City, NY to Florida in one day under your own energy and effort guaranteed! Would that be a lie?
ah....no it would not be a lie. The guy who posted the 10G's offer would hand over the money should someone be able to prove they've kept all ten commandments! Your just upset cause (just like the rest of humans) you fail at the first commandment.
1. How do you figure he would have to fork over the cash? All he'd have to do is say, "You can't prove it so you must be lying" or rearrange the definitions so that no one could win his challenge a la Kent Hovind. He doesn't intend to give the money (probably doesn't have it) so he made a statement with the intent to deceive (a lie).
2. The first commandment (since you don't seem to know it) says "You shall have no other gods before Me" (NIV). As an atheist worships no gods at all, he has no other gods before, behind, or beside Yahweh (one of the gods you worship). The first two are probably the easiest for the athiest to keep
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Ouch...
I'm waiting to see how words will be twisted to say that is not what God meant.... I know, the assumption is that you have Yahweh, but none others. If there are no others, why even mention it, I wonder.
Perhaps God could have been clearer?
Shaun
I'll fight for a person's right to speak so long as that person will, in return, fight to allow me to challenge their opinions and ridicule them as the content of their ideas merit.
HowietheChristian
You might assume someone was there before you and created all this stuff, but then you would look into the matter further to see if your assumptions met the tests of evidence and logic. Or rather, you would if you weren't a fundamentalist wacko.
Hey Guys,
I sure do enjoy how you guys resorted to name calling. You know if your point was so easy to make and we are so wrong and dumb fundamentalist wackos who are morons then why do you have to call us that?
MattShizzle said,
"Grow a brain moron! The fact nature exists does not prove there is a god. Sorry to be so blunt, but damn!"
Have you guys ever seen your brains before? I sure haven't. How do you know you have a brain? Books told you? X-ray picture showed you? Doctor told you? How do you know that they were telling you the truth? Some guy could have photo shopped the x-ray, the book could have been written by a prankster, or the doctor just doesn't like you.
The fact that you guys don't like being called agnostics is because you would rather have the stronger term of atheist applied to yourself and just because I don't have proof of something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I have no tangible proof of your brains but I still assume you have brains and you do as well.
If I told you that cell phones evolved out of rocks you would assume that I think your stupid or if I told you that cars came from rocks. We know that cars and phones are created because they are intricately complex and designed for a specific purpose. (Not assuming we know the maker or where they make them. etc---) I'm sure we can agree on how complex our cells our and the molecular structure of the cell membrane and how it allows water in and out. That is far more complex than a cell phone or car. So why would you assume that you and I evolved (some of you may not believe in evolution) but something far less complex than you and I didn't such as the car or cell phone? Cars and phones don't repair themselves or make baby cars and phones. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics says everything gets worse overtime. So how can we say that everything got better overtime until where we are today.
If you guys know there is no God then why do you waist all your time disproving it? Why don't you just go on with your lives and ignore us "morons or wackos" as you put it? The fact is you have a conscience and so does everyone else. If we evolved then where did it come from? You say society as always. Then why do all people everywhere consider lying, thieving, murder, disobeying parents wrong? Most of you have seared your consciences by your sinful lifestyles and can no longer hear it as if you basically hung up the phone on it. You have sex, look at your porn and don't feel bad about what your doing because you do it as much as you can.
Have you ever told a lie? Then your a liar. If I murder once I'm a murderer or rape once I'm a rapist so it goes the same for lying. Well you would call me a liar if I told you a lie right? Your going to say no because you know that your a liar and going to try and argue your way out of it. You say liars tell lies always. Well how many lies to I have to tell to become a liar then? 10 then a buzzer goes off? Its only 1. You also can't apply the Dan Barker if I tell the truth what does that make me argument. Your not a truth teller because a truth teller is a perfect adjective. The same way if you have sex your not a virgin. You cannot become a virgin again by just not having sex. Lying revokes your "perfection" to being know as a liar who can tell the truth BUT HAS NOT ALWAYS.
Have you ever stolen? Anything regardless of value? Music off the internet? Then your a thief. If you say what about those who stole for their family to feed them. Did you have a family that was starving? No, you stole stuff for no other reason than to gratify yourself. We all have. I'm speaking to you not any outlandish what ifs living in Africa.
I bet many of you stopped reading this because you don't like your sins exposed.
Have you ever lusted and wanted to have sex with a woman or man or have? Jesus considers that the same as adultery. You probably don't because you love your sex, porn, and masturbation. You drink it in like water
Have you ever taken God's name in vain? Used it carelessly? Of course we all have. You didn't give God's name the respect it deserves or you used his name as a filth word. If I used your mom's name that way you would be very upset with me yet you do that with God's name and call it a victimless crime. I doubt you would stay calm if I used your mom's name that way and called it victimless because I've never seen her.
Most of you have hardened your hearts by now. You claim God doesn't exist. If I claimed gravity isn't real you would laugh at me. You say we can test gravity. Yes, the same way you are going to test and find out if God is real or not. You said you were Christians. 1 John 2:15 is clear on false converts. None of you were saved. You said you knew God but now you don't because he isn't real. YOU NEVER KNEW HIM TO BEGIN WITH! If I say I knew Santa and then now say he never was real then I can figure out that I never knew him because he never existed. The same way many of you prayed a prayer or went to church thinking you were saved. (Many of you intellectually are arguing with me and have no idea what I said in the past couple paragraphs. That’s fine because I'm no longer speaking to you so stop reading this but to those who are reading this I'm speaking directly to you.)
God is going to see us all, you and me, as liars, thieves, blasphemers, and adulterers at heart and should punish us. A just judge should send lawbreakers to jail the same way God should sinners(breakers of the 10 commandments) to hell. It makes sense that he should. The reason many of you are still reading and don't like what I’m saying is because you want your sin and don't want to be punished the same way a thief keeps running from the law. You will die someday , no matter how far you run, how powerful you become, no matter how much you disprove God in your own minds. That day will be to late for you soul. You will have to pay your fine with your own blood by going to hell. God does not want that and made a way out for you. If you want to know what it is then email me. Otherwise DO NOT EMAIL ME! to debate me privately because I will block you.
-Jonathan