This is not hatemail I love you. [YOU RESPOND]
Offline From: Kelsey [email protected]
Please understand, this is not hate mail. I am not going to try and
prove the existence of God; I believe it cannot be proven except through
direct experience or personal revelation, which does come if one truly
desires to know, and seeks the Truth. But even this is (sometimes) not
enough to convince anyone but the experiencer.
In the words of my friend Jake, "Christians: How would you convince a
human born blind that the sky is blue? Would you gouge out her milky eyes
and shove your own in her bloody sockets?"
So I can only say I believe there is a God through my personal
convictions, which have been influenced by the testimonies of others. My
grandfather, for instance: During his childhood, he and his brothers did
horrible things to each other, one of which included someone's finger
being ground in a meat grinder. Today, my grandfather is a Baptist
minister, is married and has reared five children. He has never once
raised his voice at his wife. I believe this change came about only
because of God's forgiveness and grace.
Anyway.
The thing which you are convincing/daring people across the world
to do is not the unforgivable sin of blasphemy.[/b] To commit this sin
requires much more than saying "I deny the existence of the Holy Spirit."
Even Thomas, a disciple of Christ, said he would not believe until he saw
(John 20:24-30), which, surely, is what you are saying. Indeed, if
Jesus... God revealed Himself to you before your eyes, physically, would
you believe?
The unforgivable sin is about knowing certainly that God does in fact
exist, that He created the world and died for you and me, and is risen,
and then saying, "No, I deny the Holy Spirit's influence in my life. I
choose to live my life apart from God."
You see, the Holy Spirit is the presence with Christians today, the
guide for our lives. It is responsible for the personal or direct
experience I described above. If you have this experience and choose to
deny it anyway, you have committed blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
So the question, in a nutshell, is this: If you believed God was real,
would you be for Him, or against Him? Either way, you must believe He is
real first in order to commit unforgivable blasphemy and damn yourself to
hell for eternity.
Again, this is not hate mail. I may hate what you are doing, but I
love you. God loves you, even if you do not believe in Him yet. This
probably means nothing to you, but I am praying for you. I don't want you
to go to hell. I don't want anyone to go to hell.
-Kelsey
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Why doesn't christianity come with a sense of humor?
Hell doesn't exist; god doesn't exist; the holy spirit doesn't exist (hence the challenge - denial of that which does not exist). Basically it is not being afraid to declare non-belief.
Please do not gouge my milky white eyeballs out. Thank you - I love you too.
I have to say, there is something... really fucking creepy about this email. I'm not sure what it is, but I think it may have to do with the gouging out of milky white eyeballs coupled with an anecdote about a finger and a meat grinder.
Anyway, I appreciate your concern for my soul and all, but I'm not too worried about it so don't stress or anything.
If god takes life he's an indian giver
Kelsey do have anything, anything at all, to back up your naked assertion that we must believe in God before we can be damned by denying Him? That's not what the Bible says. Where are you getting your information? Or is this just you wishing really hard that the Challenge would go away and stop encouraging people to go public with their atheism?
Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown
You do realize that most of us were christians here.
¬_¬
There is a difference between, "I don't believe in god", and "I believe there is no god".
I would rebel against god so fast, I would never praise or be on the side of that little shit.
But then again that's me.
Actually no, you don't.
But then you missed the whole point of the blasphemy challenge.
WHY is not believing in god such a giant sin? It hurts no one.
In my best off key singing voice:
Can you feeeeeeel(gouging out milky white eyeballs) the looooooove tonight(finger in a meat grinder)......
When you consider human narcissism, not agreeing with 'me' may be the biggest sin of all. The fact that others disagree with us on any issue can be irksome. We have to learn to tolerate it.
Non belief is threatening to some theists. As much as we may not like to admit it, our sense of truth is built upon consensus, and the existence of intelligence non believers is bothersome to some.
In addition, since god is a projection of the believer, it is akin to an insult to deny that 'my god' exists... you're saying that there's a flaw with my projection, hence, there's a flaw in me.
Not all theists feel this way, but enough appear to feel just like that....
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
Basically, in order to see the Truth you have to want to see it. This is basic Psycholgy. I will believe and see anything that I want too. If I want to really believe something, I will trick myself into seeing and believing.
"Those who think they know don't know. Those that know they don't know, know."
Far too many people equate criticism of a claim(belief) as a personal attack on them. People do need to learn the differance between pointing out flaws in a claim, vs outright insulting a person personally.
When I say, for example "God is a prick". I do not say that because I actually beleive in God. I am merely saying that if "believer X" is claiming, for example "atribute Y of claimed deity is ALL LOVING" then the contradiction of human suffering would bring me to the conclusion that IF I were to take the position that claimed deity existed, the only conclusion I would come to is that it would be a prick for not stopping or preventing horrible things like child murder and genocide.
If I had the powers of an "omni-being" there is no way I would ever allow much of the human suffering concerning crime, desease and war, especially when children are concerned.
But, again, this is a criticism of the claim "all powerfull" and "all loving". It is in no way a personal attack on any believer of any lable. It is merely saying, "If you claim X, then this is the problem I have with that claim".
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
This reminds me of an atheist bumper sticker I saw that said "Blasphemy is a victimless crime."
Atheist Books
If you believed God was real,
would you be for Him, or against Him?
The god of the bible? no, definitly not that piece of shit. maybe another god not of any major religion i know of. but not that.
Please understand, this is not hate mail.
No, you're right. I'd rather call it "condescending mail".
I am not going to try and prove the existence of God;
Of course not. But if you do decide to try, and succeed, remember to mention us when you recieve your Nobel Prize.
believe it cannot be proven except through
direct experience or personal revelation, which does come if one truly
desires to know, and seeks the Truth.
That is ridiculous. A standard circular reasoning fallacy which states that to know the truth one must have a presupposed position towards it in which case it would merely be begging the question, and there would be no truth to discover.
But even this is (sometimes) not
enough to convince anyone but the experiencer.
Well, of course! Why would anyone else take you at face value. When one person has such a delusion it is called insanity, but many people with the same delusion? That's called religion.
In the words of my friend Jake, "Christians: How would you convince a human born blind that the sky is blue? Would you gouge out her milky eyes and shove your own in her bloody sockets?"
Wow. Your buddy has a rather twisted sense of love.
So I can only say I believe there is a God through my personal
convictions, which have been influenced by the testimonies of others.
Why are you emailing us?
My
grandfather, for instance: During his childhood, he and his brothers did horrible things to each other, one of which included someone's finger being ground in a meat grinder.
Wow. That is rather distasteful, I must surely admit. The relevance of that story escapes me.
Today, my grandfather is a Baptist
minister, is married and has reared five children. He has never once
raised his voice at his wife. I believe this change came about only
because of God's forgiveness and grace.
You Christians have a very twisted sense of interventionism. In a world where suffering and dying and ghastly atrocity every day, you dismiss it out of hand saying God gave us "free will", yet you are so downtrodden by this appalling religion that you cannot see your own accomplishments, thusly when something good happens to perhaps your immediate family, you attribute it to God. Tell me, do you truly believe that God would act in such a manner? Subtly crushing the hopes of billions who pray for him, and turning a blind eye, and yet...occasionally feel the need to tweak the life of someone who he sees fit? Is he like an omnipotent chessman or a puppetmaster? Amused as he pushes pieces across the board, deciding the billions to ignore and the handful to save?
Anyway.
At least you admit all the above was totally irrelevant
The thing which you are convincing/daring people across the world to do is not the unforgivable sin of blasphemy.
This is a little late dont you think? That was months ago.
Even Thomas, a disciple of Christ, said he would not believe until he saw(John 20:24-30), which, surely, is what you are saying.
No you condescending twit. We are saying we are not avoid of this vile jurispruding doctrine of hate called Christianity and the insane tenets which it pushes to keep it's chattel-like masses rigidly in line, which you, judging by your prose, are under the iron grip of.
Indeed, if
Jesus... God revealed Himself to you before your eyes, physically, would you believe?
A highly irrational question. If God truly is up there, why not end this wrenching anguish? Why not end the arguments and debates and the various religions and boom his voice from the heavens for all to hear? This is a similar train of thought to picking and choosing a handful of lucky randomites to save while leaving billions without. Religious experience is ridiculous.
The unforgivable sin is about knowing certainly that God does in fact exist, that He created the world and died for you and me, and is risen, and then saying, "No, I deny the Holy Spirit's influence in my life. I choose to live my life apart from God."
Well, I am quite certian that God does not exist, and I am quite certan that said entity is not responsible for creation. But even if I found God to exist, I doubt I would worship it, especially not the Christian God. THe Christian God is the most evil character surely in any fictional accolade. A vile, vindictive, vicious murderer, a hateful jurispruder, an Orwellian dictator, a genocidal deranged control freak, and a petty jealous despotic bloodluster who refuses his creations the margin of a toe out of line. THe only person I can think of alive who matches the desription of your God is the North Korean dictator Kim Jong-Ill.
You see, the Holy Spirit is the presence with Christians today, the guide for our lives.
Dont care.
It is responsible for the personal or direct
experience I described above. If you have this experience and choose to
deny it anyway, you have committed blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
Twice now you admit God is a dictator.
So the question, in a nutshell, is this: If you believed God was real,
would you be for Him, or against Him?
What does for him mean? To worship him? Most certainly not. Any being that demands worship at the price of blood is not worthy of worship. The describing factors I gave to your God still stand. You truly beleive that this God would care in the slightest for human existence? In a universe populated by trillions of trillions of planets and stars, expansions of space so vast as to be incomprehensible to humanity...you think this God cares about you? A being of organic matter on a single planet in a single system in a single galaxy? You believe he cares so much that if you do not follow its command, it will admister ruthless jurisprudence? He must be criminally insane,
Either way, you must believe He is
real first in order to commit unforgivable blasphemy and damn yourself to
hell for eternity.
If there is a God, which I am nearly 100% sure there isnt, then I can be 100% sure he would not care about humanity, and even if he did I would be 100% we wouldnt care about you.
Again, this is not hate mail. I may hate what you are doing, but I
love you.
Ah, there's the typical Christian condescending arrogance!
God loves you, even if you do not believe in Him yet. This
probably means nothing to you, but I am praying for you.
Praying: How to do nothing and still think you are doing something.
I don't want you
to go to hell. I don't want anyone to go to hell.
Why would God send anyone to hell for not worshipping him unless he was as described above? Does he anguish over each human being? Desperately not wanting anyone to go to hell but cannot avoid it unless they kowtow to him like a slave to his master? Is he deranged? Criminally insane? Laying the blood of billions on the sacrificial alter? Tell me, how many billions must be tortured at the hands of your dictator before he is appeased?
You have just shown me in crystalline why Christianity is so belittling to humanity as a whole, and why we would be much better without it.
Good day
"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.
-Me
Books about atheism
I am not going to try and
prove the existence of Thoth; I believe it cannot be proven except through
direct experience or personal revelation, which does come if one truly
desires to know, and seeks the Truth. But even this is (sometimes) not
enough to convince anyone but the experiencer.
In the words of my friend Jeff, "Egyptian Pantheon Pagans: How would you convince a
human born blind that the sky is blue? Would you gouge out her milky eyes
and shove your own in her bloody sockets?"
So I can only say I believe there is Thoth through my personal
convictions, which have been influenced by the testimonies of others. My
grandfather, for instance: During his childhood, he and his brothers did
horrible things to each other, one of which included someone's finger
being ground in a meat grinder. Today, my grandfather is a minister for Thoth, is married and has reared five children. He has never once
raised his voice at his wife. I believe this change came about only
because of Thoth's forgiveness and grace.
Anyway.
Indeed, if
A'an... Thoth revealed Himself to you before your eyes, physically, would
you believe?
So the question, in a nutshell, is this: If you believed Thoth was real,
would you be for Him, or against Him?
Again, this is not hate mail. I may hate what you are doing, but I
love you. Thoth loves you, even if you do not believe in Him yet. This
probably means nothing to you, but I am praying for you. I don't want Ammit to devour your soul. I don't want Ammit to consume anyone's soul.
Your basic thoughts, just with another God inserted. Does this convince you to believe in Thoth or fear Ammit's wrath when your heart is weighed against a feather in the halls of Ma'at? Maybe it would convince you if the name "Thoth" was replaced with Allah, Krishna, or Xenu. If not, then why would it convince us to believe in your God or fear Hellfire?
"The idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I am unable to take seriously." [Albert Einstein, letter to Hoffman and Dukas, 1946]
As I read, images flashed through my mind:
• An old lady rocking on the porch, cradling a shotgun like it's a newborn baby.• A grizzled old man, chewing a sliver of straw, casting wary glances as passers-by.• A guy playing a washboard, and another blowing into a jug marked "XXX."
To cut through most of the nonsense and get to the heart of the email:
1Q: "Indeed, if Jesus... God revealed Himself to you before your eyes, physically, would
you believe?"
2Q:"If you believed God was real, would you be for Him, or against Him?"
1A: I'm pretty confident that I speak for more than 95% of the people here when I say that if a god proved it's existance, we'd believe in it.
2A: I'd have to talk to "him" first. If there was no talk to be had, then I'd be against "him". "He" would have created me as to be incompatible with "him".
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Once again I ask: Just what do xians think they're going to accomplish with emails like this?
What an odd story. Obviously these brothers were in serious need of some parenting.
And just what does that have to do with Grandpa becoming a minister or raising his voice? I also note that you said "at his wife." I assume that means he does raise his voice to people other than his wife.
Oh.... wait.... Grandpa is a BAPTIST minister. That explains your indoctrination from an early age.
*shakes her head in bafflement at this email*
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If you people are so rational then why can't you talk with respect? This person was coming to you in love and all you can do is offer your rude comments. Thanks for that, you offer proof that God really does exist because no truth can really be in people with your types of attitudes. Sorry
If a friend of yours believed that her mind was under the control of an unvisible pink unicorn, would it be respectful for you not to tell her that she's delusional, and get her to seek help?
YOU shut the fuck up! WE'LL save America!
The people of Britain were so determined to show respect to Islam that they let extremist preachers openly call for the destruction of the West in Hyde Park for years. Their reward? The Tube bombings, carried out by native British kids who had fallen under the control of these same extremists.
The time for respecting religion is past. Theists need to make a rational defence of their beliefs or admit that they are nothing more than fantasies and no more deserving of respect than a Star Trek convention.
Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown
Bro, what is the deal with the whole "Pink Unicorn" and "Flying Spagetti Monster" analogys. If we Christians are so mindless, then why is it so hard for people to think up something origonal? I mean you no disrespect.... just asking.
There is plenty of evidence within the bible that it is more then just a fairy tale. But honestly, the same belittlements could go both ways. I believe in God, you guys believe in human understanding. Science is biased... sure a lot of good has come from it but it is ultimately out to prove that men are god's and we don't need the creator of the universe.
I don't know... I just can't find any faith in human understanding. I mean, so what... our knowledge has increased dramatically in the past 100 years (in accordance with biblical scripture) but what does it matter... we are pretty dumb when it comes down to it. What does all this understanding mean if cut down all of our trees and polluted the earth so bad? Wouldn't an intellegent creature find it useful not to destroy the habitat it lives in? It kind of shows me that our species is pretty flawed in understand
I have faith in my God and for good reason
You have faith in your science
WHAT TYPE OF PERSON WOULD I BE IF I DIDN'T POINT OUT THAT YOU ARE LOST AND ARE IN NEED OF A SAVIOR????
Here is the defence that I will always make;
"Pure religion and undefiled before the father is this, to visit the fatherless and the widows in their affliction and to keep himself unspotted from the world." --James 1:27
That is what religion is really all about. and again
"Beloved, let us love one another; for love is of God; and everyone that loveth is born of God and knoweth God, he that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is Love" --1 John 4:7-8
But these are verses from the new testiment... so to be far, I will refer back to the "bloody" old testiment.
"Woe unto them that devise iniquity and work evil upon their beds! When the morning is light, they practice it, because it is the power in there hands. And they covet fields and take them by violence; and houses, and take them away, so they oppress a man and his house even a man and his heritage" --Micah 2:1-2
“Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right, And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbor’s wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman, And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment; He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man, Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.”
--Ezekiel 18:4-9
"He hath showed me, o man, man; and what is good and what does the Lord requireth of thee but to do justly, and love mercy and to walk humbly with thy God" --Micah 6:8
Look, in his life, Jesus was basically anti-religion. But so we are not really splitting hairs here, I will say that the problem with the world is really all about a disobedience to God. Regardless of what anyone say, if every person followed the commandments of God, the world would change over night. If everyone followed;
Thou shall not kill
Thou shall not steal
Thou shall not covet
Thou shall honor your mother and father
Thou shall not lie about your brothers
Love the Lord your God with all your mind and heart and soul
Love your brother as youself
If we all followed those... we would be living on heaven on earth. There are no opinons of this one, friends.... it's truth.
How can you say this when you called me a loser because I believed with faith? I am no one to judge you but I think this is a point where you guys aren't being honest with yourselves. I have been a Christian my whole life and have had to deal with incredible inner struggles in unbelief, hypocracy in the church and hardships but I am still a Christian because I love Jesus. I don't know how you can say you were a Christian when you have now rejected it... I don't think you trully understood it in the first place, bro.
I know you have to tell yourself this so that you feel OK about your choice to believe, but I think you owe it to yourself to honestly consider, for a moment, the idea that maybe some people who were 100% believers took a careful look at their beliefs and found reaon to not believe. I know that everyone, including yourself, has warned you to beware of thinking this way, but you should go ahead and try to challenge those prohibitions and see if what you believe stands up to critical examination. It does not.
Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown
If we all followed those... we would be living on heaven on earth. There are no opinons of this one, friends.... it's truth.
Except this one. It's incompatible with the rest:
Love the Lord your God with all your mind and heart and soul
"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.
-Me
Books about atheism
"Muslims come to you with love and you get ticked when they followers threaten death to a cartoonist? That cartoonist was rude, he deserved it."
Tell me, did that cartoonist diserve death threats because he might have offened some Muslims. Or maybe he was making a point that they should not take themselves so seriously to the point of wanting to kill people?
Insted of understanding the criticism of claim someone makes you take it as a personall attack. If you are going to take what we say as a personal attack, the next asumption you will make is that we are going to harm you. That is not emotionally healthy. If you take everything someone says as offensive, you will drive yourself nuts, and them too.
YOU completely missed the point of these posts.
So maybe I can do a "See Spot Run" version. Or maybe a "Cat In The Hat" level example. So here goes again.
EXAMPLE ONLY: For the ADD aflicted, EXAMPLE ONLY for the ADD aflicted. EXAMPLE ONLY........ok...did I say that enough?
Can I continue now without ignorant assumptions about my intent? EXAMPLE ONLY: TO FOLLOW!
EXAMPLE:
Person X says to person Y, "Blacks are subhuman" =INSULT
EXAMPLE 2, is what we are doing here in these posts.
Person X claims Y.
We are responding "Ok, person X. I hear your claim Y. Here are the reasons why I dont buy your claim"
If you are going to mistake our blasphemy and bluntness for ignorant insults you will never get the point and you are waisting your time and our time.
I think, if I believed in a deity that would demand no one fart in public is not only insane, but incompetent and extremely insecure and would be hardly worth following.
This is not about hate or even rudeness, this is about facing people with things they never bothered to consider. If our packaging(words) bother you, that is a matter of your comfort level and something you either need to accept while visiting here, or obstain from it all together.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
The problem with your belief is that it is never wrong. If one seeks truth, wisdom, enlightmen or whatever you want to call it without having a personal revalation or experienc, you can always defend this outcome by arguing that this person didn't truly desired to know. Off course the opposite can be explained as well; a person seeking a specific "truth" desperately and with passion will start to see evidence for this "truth" at some point. The person doesn't see the evidence because it actually exists, but because he/she really wants to see it. The human mind can be so very deceptive.
You friend doesn't know what he is talking about. First of all, we know that the sky is blue during the the day and little clouds. The existance of god or supernatural is not known. Second problem is that it assumes that the believer in supernatural "sees" more than the unbelieving. This is just plain arrogance towards the unbelieving.
Have you ever considered that perhaps your grandfather just grew up? Many people can be wild and even violent during their childhood, but calm down when they grow up.
Nice way trying to add little more to what the Bible actually says. Your attempt has one HUGE problem: No one can know with certainty that a god exists. That would be knowledge and your religion relies on faith.
Also, it really doesn't matter what people say. I can say "I deny the Holy Flatulence", but I don't do it because I actually believe in it and say some magical words similar to hocus-pocus or abracadabra. I say it because I want the believers to know that they cannot scare me with their pathetic threats and that I am so certain that their religion is bs that I can "damn" myself in the eyes of their religion.
Good news, no one is going to hell, because hell doesn't exist.
A deity could easily repair the situation. So either god doesn't know, doesn't care or then is unable to do anything. Anyway you look at it, the biblical god is not a god.
What a childish notion. If everyone followed X, then we would be living in a utopia. The problem is that everyone following X is not realistic. Nice thought, but entirely unpractical and unrealistic.