Heresy - an irrational, self refuting concept
I wrote some of this years many ago. I'm going to edit it a bit and post it here... with one addition: while heresy is a religious concept, atheists could fall prey to thinking in terms of heresy too.... so let's all be on the lookout for this type of thinking when it creeps up in our own thoughts.
HERESY
Definition:
"The act of asking one's pastor or priest a question he can't answer."
Ok, officially, "heresy" is an opinion or a doctrine at variance with established religious beliefs, especially dissension from or denial of dogma by a professed believer or baptized church member.
The concept of heresy ought to arouse any theist's critical thinking skills....in fact it should serve as an indicator of the falsity of a religion, as any system that was undeniably true would hardly need to fear and punish doubters. Undeniable truth would defend itself - denying it would lead to self contradiction.
In science, criticism of a new theory is eagerly sought after by theorists, for the failures to disprove the theory serve to validate its truth. For example, quantum theorists wanted the great Einstein to try and knock their theories down. Sure, Einstein's attempts to do so kept them up at night (Literally, Neils Bohr's wife would later relate stories of her spouse pacing the floor, muttering "Einstein, Einstein!" every time Einstein would offer up a counter response.) but Einstein's failure to knock down quantum theory (particularly the work of Niels Bohr) helped support quantum theory - if the brilliant Einstein could not disprove it, then this served to show the theory's strength.
Of course, the scientists who postulated or even just supported the old, discarded theory may be upset, they are people after all. Some may even commit outright fraud rather than concede error. But "scientific heresy" serves science as a whole, it serves to discard false or inferior theories and it supports better theories.
Shouldn't a true religion equally desire such rigorous challenges?
A Further Example
Here's a way to make my point even more clear. Imagine you are a furniture salesman, about to sell a chair, and you are encountering a difficult customer who questions its craftsmanship. Your chair is one of the sturdiest chairs on the market, and can easily hold his weight. How do you confront your customer?
With anger?
With threats?
By ostracization?
By damning his soul?
No. You invite him to sit on the chair.
Now, imagine the chair is a repainted piece of rickety garbage. You have to prop it up against a wall to help it brace against even a mild wind. Yet you still must sell it. Now, you meet the same fellow, and need to unburden yourself of the chair. Do you let him sit on it?
NO.
You do all you can to pawn off the chair on him, without allowing him scrutinizing it. You might use the above mentioned techniques, if possible. And, if your own guilty conscience rises up during your sale... well, you'll have to use the same methods on yourself, right?
Those who doubt the law of gravity quickly gain an appreciation for the truth of it the second they defy it. "Newtonians" don't need to go around torturing doubters and enforcing acceptance - even their enemies can be compelled to recognize the law's verifiable and replicable reality. Those who refuse to appreciate the evidence defy gravity at their own peril. Burning at the stake would be superfluous - "Anti-Newtonians" would all perish given enough time. Just postion them near any cliff...
Another way to see the problem with heresy is to consider a crude style of bluffing in poker. Some oafs try to bluff you by suddenly placing a large wager into the pot, and then make strong eye contact with you - imparting the message: "How dare you enter that pot when I have this powerful hand? You better fold." The message is clear - it is a threat. But the truth is that anyone who really possessed a good hand would have no fear of your hand and would gladly accept your addition to the pot, after all, its going to be their money. If the player has the best hand, what does he have to fear?! A poker player with a winning hand welcomes challenge. He will win in the end. So he would never threaten you with the prospect of losing. A poker player who does so clearly tips off his actual hand as being weak, not strong*.
From these examples it should be clear that a system of beliefs that fears "heretics" and actively seeks to silence them by threats of violence or excommunication, reveals that they do not trust in, or that unconsciously doubt, the veracity of their own beliefs. Challenges frighten them, yet challenges should only frighten those with false creeds.
I think we ought to all take this to heart in our debates, whatever side we are on... if we find ourselves feeling that our opponents words are heretical.... then we're clearly going down the wrong path.
Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates
* Unless they are clever enough to be using a 'reverse tell', but I digress...
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
- todangst's blog
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todangst
I don't think I've heard heresy used in a long time.
I agree with your view.
It is never a good idea to
It is never a good idea to protect ideas from scrutiny or blasphemy or even cussing. No that is not a call to end religion or demand cussing in every context.
Without that ability to bitch it is very easy to get to a point of protecting egos. Ideas that progress humanity forward withstand the heat and do not need to be protected.
Human rights are a given, but ideas are not humans, ideas are positions people communicate and those ideas are not always right.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
^ Oh the irony...
^ Oh the irony...
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Vastet wrote:^ Oh the
What "irony". You have been cussing me out too, did I ever demand your arrest or stop you from saying what you want?
You once again do not understand what Dawkins means by god belief being a Delusion. You do not understand why Hitchens called religion poison. You do not understand why Victor Stenger says our morality is not in holy books but in our evolution. If you would get your stupid stubborn head out of your fucking ass you would know what they and I are talking about. NONE OF it is advocating oppresive laws or violence to believers.
No one is calling for the forcable end of religion for mearly saying it is poison to use a kaliedoscope as a tellescope. It is no different than knowing guns are not toys and vocanos while dormant and look pretty sometimes are still volcanos.
You simply personally do not like me or my tactic of conversation. So what. Do your worst, call me any name you want, call me a piece of shit. I don't give one fuck.
Your stupid attidude is what allows religion to create oppressive laws and maintain them. You don't help minority Muslims murdered by other Muslims by pretending religion is not the cause. You don't help Christians beheaded in Iraq by Isis by pretending the elephent in the room religion itself is the cause. You don't help gays or atheists arrested in Saudi Arabia or Iran by pretending religion is hunky dory. You don't help women oppressed by prending religon should be given a pass. You dont help Jews or Palistinians by acting like any boo to religion is an act of tyranny.
Now this simply amounts to you getting pissy with me because I wont pretend every context needs to be a library setting. I don't give one fuck how you choose to conduct yourselves with theists or even what names you call me. It still amounts to you being a brat because I didn't blingly bow to you.
No "irony", just you being a childish brat.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Brian37 wrote:What
Of course, if Brian knew, it wouldn't be very ironic.
Brian thinks insults have something to do with it. Poor Brian.
If Brian could actually accomplish this, he probably would do so. We've already seen him call for the elimination of theists (another irony). After all, what is censorship and imprisonment compared to mass genocide?
Brian makes a bunch of stuff up, par for the course.
More lies sprinkled with strawmen.
Brian's martyr complex surfaces once more.
This is your brain on theism. Look out kids! You too might become a hypocritical asshole who spends 99% of his time lying!
Brian doesn't understand politics or economics or societies. But this has already been adequately demonstrated, so it is now boring.
Brian doesn't realise that the US government is directly responsible for ISIS, or ISIL, or IS, or whatever the fuck they call themselves. But everything is so much simpler if religion is the cause of all the ills in the world. In Brian's little mind, the deer that just got hit by a car somewhere in the Rockies died because of religion. The baby that was just stillborn? Religion. The hurricane season? Religion. Everything is religions fault, so sayeth the master of lies.
Hypocrisy, lies, strawmen, and delicious irony. Brought to you by the local tool.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Show me where I said
Show me where I said "eliminate theists" direct quote please. I have said I will not play verbally nice to bigots or those who use religious based oppresive laws or use violence. And in the heat of battle when some violent fuck is armed if he gets killed I certainly will not lose sleep over it. The Isis fucks who beheaded the Japanese reporters would fit that bill.
I defy you to show me where that would include the likes of Malala. The worst she would get from me is "that is not true" or you are full of crap. If we all got to murder someone merely because we get offended, I can imagine what is in your head when you think about me, even if you wouldn't litterally do it. Some humans worldwide don't have that self control, and many of them use religion to justify hurting others because they got their egos bruised.
I do agree with Hitchens in calling religion poison. Hardly a call to genocide. Just like it is stupid to light a smoke while you are pumping gas. It is poison to use a kaliedoscope and pretend it is a telescope. Bad ienough people do light their smokes while pumping gas, but like weeds, you can only contain them, taking your eye off of religion can lead to very bad things. Religion is poison because it allows humans to set up "in group out group", it ignores our common existence and allows far too many humans, to get to the political level to the point of being willing to kill over it.
No Irony, you simply don't like me personally.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Yes I do understand
Yes I do understand politics, religion and economics. Those are all acts of communication designed to convey a message to gain members in order to create groups. That pattern seeking is what all groups do. The problem is that humans think locally not globally, they defend what they are familiar with which sets up "in group vs out group".
Religion is the biggest distraction worldwide, it wont go away, but our species especially now cannot afford for it to continually keep its pedestal causing conflict and diverting resources that could be used for problem solving like famine and poverty and polition and climate change.
We cannot afford for ANY religion to keep trying to take center stage and hold the world hostage. It needs to get put on the back burner. But as long as the climate of the worlds believers keep making that their top priority it will continue to be a problem.
Now for the billionth time moron "Religion is poison" is not a call to force it out of existence anymore than one can remove Mt Fuji with a Bobcat. But you have to treat it like a volcano. Only an idiot would live next to a volcano and ignor it.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Brian37 wrote:Show me where
Brian thinks I'm going to waste my time looking for the actual quote, when Brian constantly makes up things for people to say without providing the quote. In other words, this is more of Brian's hypocrisy.
I might even do so if Brian ever did the same, but he never does. I might concede the point, if Brian ever admitted his blatant lies, but he never does. What Brian will nevrr understand is that I've quoted him word for word, while all he can do is make shit up.
Brian lies.
Brian ironically proves my point without even realising it.
And yet again Brian starts setting up a strawman.
Eliminating Brian could only benefit the species. Sadly my ethics are superior, so I cannot eliminate Brian. I can only do to him what he has done to everyone else.
Yes Brian, we already know you fail at English. Repitition of stupidity does not increase the probability of your delusions being accepted.
Brian makes another strawman.
Continuous failure to English.
LOL Brian thinks you can contain people from smoking at gas pumps. Apparently Brian doesn't even understand what happens when fire, gasoline, and oxygen react simultaneously. One can only hope he finds out first hand, for all our sakes.
More strawmen.
More lies.
Brian should take psychology. I say this facetiously, because Brian could never understand psychology.
And we conclude, AGAIN, with lies, hypocrisy, self delusion, strawmen, and Brian's martyr complex.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Brian37 wrote:Yes I do
More lies.
Proof of Brian's lies.
More proof of Brian's lies.
Brian thinks that extreme lying will change reality. Brian is wrong.
Brian's religion included.
Only an idiot would accept Brian's word.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Brian37 wrote:Those are all
this is exactly what the majority of religions in south, east, and southeast asia are not.
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
iwbiek wrote:Brian37
You are a fucking idiot.
Try doing ANYTHING in your life without communicating, try.
EVERYTHING humans do requires communication. ALL communication is a way of conveying an idea. The more you convince others that your ideas work the bigger the group becomes, or at a minimum, you get the group big enough as to maintain it.
You stupidly think seemingly placid now means that group will stay that way forever.
Not even asia has been violence free. If the world suddenly became all Buddhist or all Taoist or all Jainist you would still have competing groups. BECAUSE HUMANS FUCKING COMPETE YOU DIPSHIT.
Asia's religions are no better than any other religion in th world. They are not the patent holders of human morality anymore than Christianity or Islam or Hinduism. They are still a placebo that sets up groups and social orders. But there was no religion around 4 billion years ago, and dinosaurs survived for quite a long time without praying to statues of fat guys. Cockroachs didn't need Jesus either.
You got stuck on pretty, that is what religous people do and that is the poison I am talking about. Getting stuck on pretty allows people to ignore the dark side of our species evolution.
Then just like Vasit you stupidly think because of my verbal bluntness somehow I am advocating the forcable end of religion.
NO YOU FUCKING MOR0N!
I see my species having proven it's capability to give up on old bullshit. You get stuck on pretty which is why superstitious people believe in "gnats" and think statue of fat guys have some real effect on their lives outside a placebo.
IT IS ALL SUPERSTITION, pretty buildings, pretty art, pretty words, do not make those things pattent holders of our species behavior. Our species behavior is in IS in us, not the religions humans invent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_violencePeople are not bad because they hold a religion, the part you keep fucking missing is the IDEA of religion itself allows people to do stupid shit, and somehow you think Asia is better. NO there is only one species and the same range of human behaviors have always been in us.
Penn Gillete "Don't hate the faithful, hate faith itself, FUCK FAITH" from "God No".
Now unless you have read the God Delusion, or God Is Not Great, or The New Atheism, you have no goddamn fucking clue how much your good intent in reality has the opposite effect.
The Dali Lama is no different than the Pope, no different than an Imam or a Rabbi, they are leaders of comic book clubs. Sure those placebos give them safety in numbers, but those clubs do as much to divide humanity and whatever benefit they provide is negated by the fact that it sets up tribal behavior. BUDDHISM is no fucking different.
By accepting this flaw in human gap filling, which is why religions are invented, you are NOT calling for an end to them by force, but just like you know what causes hurricanes or snow, that evolutionary understanding can help you manage those differences better.
You don't give religion a pedestal outside the human right to hold one. The right to believe something does not mean the claim or the religion should be scrutiny or blasphemy free. For the same fucking reason you and I bitch each other out here.
Life is not bowl of ice cream so stop fucking acting like it is.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Name me one Asian country
Name me one Asian country that does not have prisions. You cant anymore than a Christian majority country or Islamic country are prison free. Isreal has prisons too. So if any religion in the world were the key to peace, there would be no crime or war.
That means our crime and war are a result of our EVOLUTION, and our species is better served by understanding that instead of hiding behind old myths and comic book clubs. Just like our species no longer believes in Apollo or Thor.
Our good behavior as a species is because empathy and compassion produce cooperation, NOT A FUCKING COMIC BOOK.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
i'm not talking about
i'm not talking about buddhism. buddhism is actually an exception because it was a proselytizing religion, at least at its inception. and nobody's talking about whether or not there is violence in certain religions. i'm talking about your bogus definition of religion, which you clearly pulled right out of your ass--much like your einstein quote--and how it doesn't fit half the religions in the world.
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
Brian37 wrote: Name me one
completely irrelevant to the point i was making, as usual. brian again proves he has no idea how to address a point directly.
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
iwbiek wrote:i'm not talking
Do you even know what the root meaning of the word "religion"is. ? It stems from the word ligature meaning "to tie" or "to bind".
Unlike what religion causes far too much, which is "shut up and don't scrutinize me", what are you doing with me here? You are doing with me what the secular wests allows as it should.
Religions are IDEAS, they are all acts of communications, the intent is to explain the world arround them. The pretty words in any of them do not constitute anything more than wishful thinking. You can find pretty motifs in Star Wars and Harry Potter too, but if those fans of those fictions started wars and litterally believed in them, would you call that sane?
Again, when anyone of any religion claims "you wouldn't understand it's complicated", that is stupidly getting stuck on the details when the reality is it is needlessly complex and still is nothing but an argument from ignorance in the form of gap filling.
Now stop stupidly thinking I am out to get anyone in any sense of force. My bluntness here is nothing more than seeing my fellow species doing stupid shit and responding "NO YOU IDIOT, THE YANKEES DIDN'T WIN THE SUPERBOWL".
The reason god claims pop up and religon pops up is because of our SPECIES flawed perceptions. We have progressed as a speices preciesly because many countless humans bothered to challenge those perceptions.
If you want to coddle the insecurites of delusional humans and insecurities because some in our species are afriad of change, you can. I think better of my species. Just because it is a human right, does not mean clinging to that is good.
NO ONE I consider sane should be out to deny human rights. SO please grow the fuck up. If our species never questioned social norms our speices never would have left the caves.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
iwbiek wrote:Brian37
NO you know religion doesn't cure crap. You wont admit that it is nothing more than a gap filling placebo.
You "religion does good"
Yea so? That also allows humans to hide behind that and fight over being patent holders of our species morality.
To summerize Christopher Hitchens "Name me one good thing said only a religious person could say that an atheist could not say. Name me one good deed only a religious person could do that an atheist could not do".
Saying religion does good is like finding corn in your shit. Sure corn is food, but look what you have to dig through to get to it.
Religons in our species history allways start the same way. Someone, or some group of people, look around them, draw off the prior an surrounding ideas and motifs, compete to create their new club. Religion merely survives as a placebo through marketing. It has no pragmatic value outside that and the danger is that that group case of the warm fuzzies gets to a political level to the point of willing to kill over it.
None of the blasphemy above is any sort of call to use force to end religion. It is nothing more than telling your fellow human "WAKE THE FUCK UP".
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Brian37 wrote:You are a
What Brian doesn't understand is that when a complete fucking idiot calls someone a complete fucking idiot, it is actually a compliment. The complete fucking idiot is simply too stupid to comprehend intelligence, and equates it with a lack thereof.
And again Brian breaks out the strawman.
Blah blah blah Brian's strawman is boring.
More strawman.
Still more strawman. It's pretty obvious who the real dipshit is.
Lies, strawmen, and constant demonstrations of ignorance in everything. Typical Brian.
Brian forgets he LITERALLY called for the forcible end to religion. But that isn't surprising, Brian's brain is too broken to recall much of anything.
Sometimes Brian's stupidity reaches epic levels, at which point it becomes impossible to understand what he is saying and what context it could possibly have. When this happens it is best to just laugh at him.
Brian fails to comprehend that anything created by man is a reflection of man. Religion is no different.
Brian drops a link to start on yet another strawman. Or was it to continue one? It can be hard to tell sometimes. His verbal diarrhoea spews in all directions. It's a wonder noone has yet cut off his hands and removed his vocal chords. Maybe one day.
Penn would die of a heart attack if he knew Brian was using his name on his crusade to eliminate theists.
Brian worships these books, never realising that truly intelligent people can quite easily ignore them as irrelevant to anything. They make good paper weights though!
Brian fails to understand that compared to him, every religion ever invented is a step forward.
More lies and strawmen.
More lies and strawmen.
It is interesting that Brian can say this without comprehending it.
More lies, strawmen, and a dash of hypocrisy.
They would be more sane than Brian.
Much like everything Brian ever said.
More lies.
Fortunately I'm here to do this to Brian.
Brian makes up a bunch of bs, again.
More lies and strawmen.
More lies and strawmen.
More lies and strawmen.
A strawman, by implication.
One wonders if Brian actually does this. It might explain a few things...
Brian doesn't know how any religion started, but he pretends to. It's part of his need to be a cult leader.
And Brian concludes with more lies, strawmen, and hypocrisy; with a touch of absolute stupidity.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Now stop acting like
Now stop acting like children. In life, individuals start out liking eacch other, over time their view change, and can end up hating each other. Happens all the time. Now maybe Iwbeik you ignor or have forgotten your post I turned into a poem giving you credit for it, which is still in that poetry thread. If our falling out were based on me thinking you are "evil" like Stalin because you support Marx, why whould I leave that up?
Page 3 of my poetry thread "Drunken Zen Banter" by Iwbiek, edited by Brian37 post #164
I still think that is a amusing poem. And despite our falling out it still belongs there.
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/31771?page=3
And to Vastet, look at that same page above and check out post #194 Where you complement me. And post #200. Our falling out still may not change putting you in that forward, I may still do that, maybe without naming you personally, but some motif describing how humans can change over time. Don't know.
Now we hate each other now, unlike then. But friendships end just like humans get divorces. That does not make you evil. It just means we no longer like each other. Jefferson and Adams went through the same thing politically, they started out friends, but had a falling out, and were very bitter to each other until they patched things up at the end of their lives.
Despite what you might think, I have NOT changed one bit. I have been just as blasphemous even prior to Rational Responders existing. And I don't think you are a different person because we don't get along anymore. It merely means we have changed our views on the other.
Now I really don't give a fuck if you go to your grave never liking me again. But that does not change the time we did like each other. I am quite sure you have family and friends and co workers you love and support you. And so do I.
My bluntness is not an act of bitterness or revenge to anyone here. It is simply a refusal to sugar coat my position.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Vastet. SERIOUSLY stop
Vastet.
SERIOUSLY stop using dead philosophy. I fucking hate that.
All that fucking crap is nothing more than wordgames.
Life is NOT complicated, people create complicated bullshit to justify creating groups. No "strawman".
If humans didn't evolve to communicate we would not form groups. There is nothing fucking hard at all by saing everything we do is a result of evolution. The fucking part you keep stupidly ignoring is that is not claiming humans should act like emotionless robots. It is simply a recognition that our perceptions evolutionary wise are notoriously flawed. So when humans make claims about politics, religion, or economics, claiming that those things work, is not an argument. NO SHIT, but that never takes into account "FOR WHO". Not seeing outside your own bubble allows you to think "it works" and the downside is that causes that group to desire to replecate that pattern to the point of projecting it on others. THAT is the poison religion causes. It allows humans to hide behind it and in tern affects both politics and economics. Recognizing that allows the shift in priorities and can allow more of a climate of understanding our species common condition in our imperfet existence. You do not problem solve by saying "pretty is pretty so give it a pedestal". Lots of pretty looking plants are natural and pretty, but very poisonous. Some snakes have very beautiful colors and are quite natural, but also very posionous.
The concept of human invented religon is a double edge sward. It has pretty claims in it, but the poison is that allows people far to often to ignore that those same flawed perceptions can allow them to hide behind the pretty motifs and justify cruelty to others.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
While you guys can point
While you guys can point out where I slaughter discribing science, there is one thing I am NOT wrong about.
One of the core musts in science when you postulate anything is to not overcomplicate it or add anything more that nessary. KISS keep it simple stupid. If you work and progress and have to add more, you still only add what you need. As long as the buildup in science the more complecated it might get, as long as that adding does not add superflous garbage, the more likely your outcome is going to procuce better data.
Religoin as an IDEA adds wishful thinking gap filling superflous garbage regardless of the common empathy stories they all share.
So if my choices as to what constitutes a more likely anwer are.
1. Kaladiescopes work and are not mere placebos.
Or.
2. Humans make shit up beause they like it.
Now you damned well know, there is only ONE universal way to settle disputes when it comes to competing claims. Religion only works as a placebo. but that placbo has a very poisonous dark side to it. By recognizing it, again, while you cant completely rid the world of religon, accepting the dark side of it, allows the civil west to keep a leash on that dark side.
What you don't like is my simplifying reality. TOO FUCKING BAD.
Religion existing is not an excuse to cling to it. If it were then Galelieo should have been put to death.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Brian37 wrote:Now stop
Brian should take his own advice, since he's the only one acting like a child.
Brian doesn't comprehend that his actions over the last 7 years have made any reconciliation impossible. He also suggests I support Marx, even though I've stated I never even read Marx. How can I support a position I'm not familiar with? I guess Brian thinks that because he does it all the time, everyone else does too. But Brian is wrong, as usual.
Brian doesn't realise that even back then I didn't like him much. I simply tolerated him more because he had yet to branch out from his dogged assaults on Beyond Saving. But that all changed when he started attacking everyone, myself included, with lies and strawen and hypocrisy and stupidity. Apparently Beyond was too much for him, so he figured he should see if he could do better against everyone. Well, that didn't work out so well.
Brian is oblivious. I don't hate. I do have contempt, but that is not hate.
Brian and I were never friends. I don't make friends with idiots.
Perhaps Brian doesn't realise there is no such thing as evil.
Despite what Brian thinks, he has changed considerably. Granted, he was always an idiot. But there was a time when he actually had meaningful contributions to the site. Now all he does is make shit up and make all atheists look bad.
This is one of those times to just sit back and laugh.
Another strawman.
Brian goes off on an irrelevant rant.
More strawman.
I'm not quite sure what Brian is thinking here, but it doesn't really matter. Probably safe to call it a strawman.
Brian says this while living in a bubble. The irony.
Brian is infinitely more poisonous than any religion.
Strawmen, lies, and hypocrisy.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Nope dumbass.You are the
Nope dumbass.
You are the fucking hypocrite, you'd be the moron who would take apart the entire car engine as a defalt start position. Just like men magically popping out of dirt is supurflous and explains nothing. It is extra garbage humans like believing because it makes them feel good.
It does not take a fucking rocket scientist to say "WE ARE NOT DIFFERENT" or "WE ARE THE SAME SPECIES"
Name me one human now or ever that is not made up of adinine, guanine, thymine and cytosine. Now name me any ancient comic book in human history that displays that modern knowledge?
Religons are gap filling placbos that you cannot get rid of completely, but you are the moron that wants to pretend that flawed gap filling is not poisonious.
This isn't complecated.
Your choices are.
1. A god exists
Or
2. Humans make them up.
"It makes humans feel good" NO SHIT, that sense of self importance and feeling good leads to things like the Dark Ages and 9/11. I am only trying to get you to pull you fucking head out of your ass.
"Cant we all just get along"
YES and YES WE SHOULD, political correctness and walking on eggshells is NOT the path to civility.
But sugarcoating reality and pretending there is no poison in religion is absurd and dangerous. You want to live next to that pretty dormant volcano and fool yourself into thinking it should be ignored, go ahead. I refuse to on a planet of religious people who run governments and own weapons and are willing to take me out with them over a stupid fight over a fictional being they have no evidence for.
Religion IS POISON and if you would stop having a fucking childish kneejerk reaction to that fact, you'd understand Dawkins and Hitchens and Stenger.
There is NOTHING complicated about life. There are humans who conoct ideas that overcomplicate the simple fact we are the same species.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Brian37 wrote: Nope
Brian can't accept reality, so like any good theist, he resorts to name calling.
Lies and hypocrisy. A little strawman for flavour.
Strawman.
Strawman.
Strawman.
Brian's gap filling is infinitely more poisonous than any and every religion combined. Even the ones that haven't been invented yet.
Brian is right, it isn't complicated. Yet it is still beyond his capacity to comprehend.
Oh I see another strawman coming. I bet there's a false dichotomy as well.
Looks like I was right!
Brian again demonstrates his skill at making up quotes.
And Brian.
Brian can't pull anyones head out of an ass when his own head is permanently fused to his own.
Actually we can't all just get along. People like Brian are the reason why.
I'm being unfair. The real reason is entropy. But Brian certainly doesn't help matters.
Brian doesn't realise that labelling religion as poisonous automatically makes the labeller poisonous.
Brian thinks that just because people oppose his religion they must support other religions. He doesn't realise that most of us discard all of them.
Brian again alludes to his desire to wipe out all theists.
Brian thinks that if you repeat something enough times, it will come true. Typical theist tactic.
Brian thinks I don't understand these people, when in fact I do. I simply think they are all idiots. Because they are.
Brian wishes life was simple, but the fact that we cannot yet even define life proves he has a lot of catching up to do.
Like Brian.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Nope dipshit. Being
Nope dipshit. Being imperfict does not make me wrong about everything.
When you boil our groups down to the core it is nothing more than our groups survival kicking in.
It does not take a genious to say "we are the same species".
What overcomplicates life in terms of religion, and politics and economic models is the the dangerous bubble thinking logic of "works for me", which is not taking into acount while it does work, "for who", and that is the part most humans miss.
Religion is the poisonous distraction that gets undue top billing that allows us to ignore all those divisions.
Now fuckwad, that that is no different than what a driver's ed teacher will tell you, "Assume the other guy is going to fuck up, and treat even your own car as a weapon". You keep your eyes on the road, even though you cant get rid of that road. You keep your eyes on the other cars even though you cant prevent them from driving. You have rules for that road, you obey the speed limit and keep your distence.
Religion does not promote that. It doesn't have quality controls. It pretends to be a patent holder on all highways and cars. And because of that lack of understanding based on gap filling flawed perceptions, it causes people to have crashes. There is everything common about or species, there is nothing common about religion, other than most people don't like to be introspective about it and go with their emotions.
Cand dumb down that reality any further for you.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Brian37
Unless of course you are using imaginary dead philosophy like fake quotes from Hypatia, Marie Antoinette or Einstein. In that case, Brian loves it.
And now we can add philosophy to the long list of things Brian doesn't understand.
Brian has life all figured out-LOL. Tell us Guru Brian, exactly what is the secret of life?
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
Now again, call me a
Now again, call me a hypocrite by saying "Religious people don't get everything wrong either".
Nope they don't. Newton believed, got physics right, but also postulated Alachemy. Still doesn't make invisible super heros real. Arabs invented Algabra, doesn't make Allah real. The Romans built aquafers and stadiums, didn't make Apollo real.
I've heard the agument countless times even outside this website. Our species pattern seeking existed long before any written religion. We were making tools long before any polytheistic or monotheistic religion. Our ability to be curious again, is in our evolution, not the false placebo humans falsely attach their success to. No different the stupid superstion of thinking you need that lucky bat to hit a homerun when other players don't have that superstition.
We've progressed beyond gap filling, we have much better tools than religion to meaure the nature of reality. There is no Allah theory of thermodynamics. No Jesus theory of gravity. No Hindu theory of evolution.
We do have real science that explains why humans have false perceptions. It is why we know that ink blot is not a real butterfly. It is why we know the shapes some see in clouds is retrofiting after the fact. It is why we know that certain mental illnesses and brain injuries can cause halucinations.
Dawkins in "The God Delusion" explains why religion exists in the same way a "moth mistaking the light bulb for the moonlight".
Yes religion exists. No you cannot get rid of it. But the poison is not understanding it is merely our own wishful thinking, our own false perceptions. You understand in nautral terms why humans create religions, it allows you to manage conflicts and minimize the harm they can cause.
In the entire Cosmos series with Neil, in just about every episode, he showed pleanty of examples worldwide in in human history where humans gap filled only to later find out that flawed perception was wrong. Drawing shapes in the stars was worldwide even with no connection between groups. Fear of comits also.
And the other common things powers did back then regardless, was that when the subordinates started questioning that made the powers uncofmortable and more often than not that power would get scared and retard the progress of humanity.
That is the poison religion causes. Humans get used to a pattern and when someone else questions that social norm, fear of change kicks in and conflict happens. THAT is the poison religion causes. The cure to that isn't to use force, the cure to that poison is to offer humanity better ways of measuring reality, and to be unafraid of being wrong and be willing to give up on old claims.
Science flies us to the moon, religion flies you into buildings(not my quote, but I do agree with it). And the only way to minimize that harm is to challenge religion and not give it a pedestal.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Brian37 wrote:NO you know
Nice try dumbfuck.
No one is claiming religion should be involved in every aspect of somones life. Only Richard Dawkins ass kissers like you are that paranoid to think that.
Religions will happen no matter what kind of revolution happens, they've happend throughout our species history. Some have gone from open religions to closed religion. Others have gone from closed religions to open religions. But the one thing all of those shifts have in common were that the powers got abusive to the point those below them, even if they couldn't do it suddenly, created a climate that time eventually gave those shifts an opportunity to topple that power.
Nothing changes my position.
Groups form because ideas get expressed, all aspects of society regarding ideas require communication to spread. All aspects of society require income to support and spread those ideas. You childishly did this because I neither agree with your religious view or those of anyone who agrees with you. Niehter of you consider a third option.
I support the idea of mixed religions and free speech concepts. Right now though the atheists with the money are monpolizing our system. Reps are not the cause of it oustide being too compromizing and our voter apathy on top of that. Now when I cant even point to a billionaire who would agree with me and not you, you have no case.
Saying things happen, and that those things are unavoidable, does not mean "do nothing" or "works for me" means works for everyone.
WE in America means WE, not you, not atheists. WE. You are doing nothing with your religious views as an argument I have not seen from economics. You live in a bubble, your drug is your party. It isn't religion vs atheism. It is a matter of ballance and right now if you stupidly think our faith gap isn't hurting us you are an idiot. David Green a billionaire (and 3 times richer than Nick) would call you an idiot.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
Brian37 wrote:Nope dipshit.
More strawman. The fact Brian is wrong about everything is why Brian is wrong about everything. Perfection is irrelevant.
Brian doesn't understand that this is only true in very desperate times. Otherwise people form groups for companionship and mutual benefit.
Brian says something both obvious and irrelevant.
Again Brian demonstrates ignorance of everything. The fact is that these things work for the vast majority, which is why they still exist. Even though the average person isn't spectacularly intelligent, they are generally smart enough to know what works. Those who are as dumb as Brian, and don't know what works, tend to get themselves eliminated from the gene pool sooner or later.
Brian is the poison trying to destroy atheism from the inside. Fortunately he is too stupid to.
More fictitious quotes. No drivers ed instructor would suggest you view your car as a weapon.
This is quite laughable.
Lies.
It is probably true that Brian could not get any dumber, but it is better to be safe then sorry, so I strongly recommend against testing the hypothesis.
Brian doesn't know what hypocrisy is.
Brian doesn't understand that those kinds of discoveries and accomplshments were often made possible by religious organisations. The fact that their gods were made up doesn't change the end result.
Brian hears voices.
Brian is very good at making things up, just like most theists.
All lies. The average educated muslim would accept thermodynamics as true. The average christian accepts gravity. I don't know enough about hindu's to assume they accept evolution, but I DO know that Brian doesn't know enough about hindu's to say either way.
This is Brian being absurd.
So sayeth lord Dawkins, it MUST be true. Amen.
Brian continues making shit up.
Brian doesn't realise that's how science works. Technically, religion was the mother of science. It is true that the hypothesis religious organisations made were largely proven false, but the vast majority of all hypothesis ever postulated were proven false, so that doesn't condemn religion.
If Brian knew anything at all about psychology, he would realise this is a flaw in mankind. Religion is hardly a prerequisite.
And that is why Brian is the true poison.
Yet again Brian accuses religion of something that religion isn't necessary for. Which is why Brian is the true poison.
Brian thinks that a psychological flaw in mankind can be cured. Maybe it can. But it won't happen any time soon. And blaming religion for it certainly won't make it go away.
Funny how India's space programme proves Brians quote wrong.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Brian37 wrote:Do you even
yes, i'm very aware of that POSSIBLE etymology. i also know it isn't the only POSSIBLE etymology, nor even the most likely one. the fact of the matter is, we DON'T KNOW FOR SURE where the word comes from.
do you ever do your own research beyond the highly selective corpus of "facts" a clique of new atheist writers have spoonfed you?
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
Brian37 wrote: You wont
brian lies yet again, as he knows damn good and well that i have "admitted" on several ovvasions that religion is a placebo (i've used that exact word, in fact), and i've also asked him what's inherently wrong with placebos. i've received only silence in return.
if religion is the "placebo," brian, what is the actual cure for our existential dread? learning biology? doesn't seem to have worked so far.
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
Brian37
wow, this sounds remarkably like many christians i've debated. "yes, life is black and white! stop using big words! you're just splitting hairs and trying to confuse me!"
brian doesn't understand philosophy, is incapable of understanding philosophy, therefore it's "dead" and "wordgames."
i imagine life ISN'T terribly complicated for an unemployed 40-something with no dependents.
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson