F*CK -- it's KWEK (Sapient -- can you make the background pink or something for this section?). Hold on... let me rephrase my reply.

Respectable sir, may I remind you that this is a public forum, over which you don't have editorial control. If a private conversation is preferable, you may make use of our fine private messaging system, or your own e-mail mechanism.

That was curt.  I do apologize.

I was not assuming really one way or the other.  I was just wondering if you had ruled out the possibility or not.  And I would agree that what occurred in your life was not a "miracle" as Christians typically define it.  It was exceptional ability and luck.  But the most recent one I heard (and I know this is anecdotal, just so everyone understands)?  A man's blindness was healed.  The crowd that brought him could not believe it.  Everyone cheered when they realized he was no longer blind.  A doctor's report would be difficult to attain, you're right. 

I am assuming these are the kind of miracles you're talking about? 

Something you should consider, the oldest copies of Mark 16 all ended at Mark 16:8. The verses you question as to miracles were added in later centuries. See "Misquoting Jesus" by Bart D Ehrman pp 65-68. Many Bibles have footnotes indicating this difference.

See:

http://www.bible-researcher.com/endmark.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_16

My research into this a few years ago took me to this information. Mark 16:9-20 was added somewhere in the 4th century. These verses were not in original versions and were later added. Codex Vaticanus(B) ends at Mark 16:8 as well as Codex Sinaiticus(Aleph) around 330 CE. Apparently by 400 CE there were 4 different versions of the final chapter of Mark. Most  modern Bibles have the warning disclaimer to tell the reader the most reliable manuscripts end at Mark 16:8.

The other Gospels do not have the Disciples-Apostles receiving these instructions.

Perhaps it was never there, which is why it does not occur.

 

 

 

Well.

My father used to do exorcisms. We were watching the programme and he pointed out many things which happened when he used to do exorcisms. Apart from the fact that the guy doing the show was using Bibles and Crosses to push against the possessed people .. which he said was probably just for show, and that is not needed..

But in the show, the demons speak through the people. My father told me that was real, and happened every so often when he did exorcisms. Everything was done in the same way, everything was just how it happened when my father was doing it.

So I believe that show, is real.

 

 

There are many quotes in the Bible which say how towards the end days, which are close - people will be becoming so much more doubtful in God, the devil will have such a grip over the world and how people view Christianity. How people will become scared of the seas, the skies. How there will eventually be one person to rule the world, the anti-christ. It talks of everyone holding some form of identification on themselves at all time - and eventually everyone will have to have a 'brand' in order to buy or sell goods.

That sounds exactly like what the world is walking into. Plans have already gone ahead for a leader of the whole of Europe - the English government created a law several years ago, where any major decisions, such as moving to the Euro currency .. or having a European Government, would be voted on by the public. The Government quickly found out that the majority of England didn't want a European leader .. but the Government did. So they pushed the law aside. Tony Blair has been nominated as the first one to lead..

You've got "people scared of the seas and skies" .. well for starters you have Global Warming. All this nonsence about sea levels rising. People losing houses .. it's not really scary when you think about it, but it's been all bigged up by the Government and people are all worried.

Then you've got general terrorism which has really kicked in during this past decade ...

And plans for everyone to hold a form of identity are already going ahead. In America I believe aswell as over here in England. The Government are REALLY pushing for it to go ahead - but again, no one wants it. And there are no advantages. But the Government just "wants" it.

The world is so influenced by the devil.

You know why people like you piss me off?

When things finally do begin a downward spiral, as the Earth becomes used-up beyond it's capacity for supporting industrial civilization and, eventually, human life altogether (however far down the road that may be), I just fucking know that there you'll be: running around outside and tilting at windmills, encouraging everyone to do the same, spouting this kind of garbage and insisting that the conditions around you are all a 'sign'. While practical people are dying, fighting, figuring and otherwise doing what they can to curb disaster, you and the the rest of the 'faithful' will just be standing there with smug grins and raised arms, wasting space at best, waiting for Jesus to come and rapture you away.

Why do atheists have to contstantly try to put people down as being ignorant if they believe in God?  We all know the most intelligent people in the world are not those who do not believe in God, so why say such ignorant things? I mean, like 95% of the people in the USA believe in God.  So, you actually think the 5% that do not believe in God are the most intelligent?  Sounds like some people are very insecure about their own beliefs.

Belief in God in the industrialized western world, for those not in circumstances of poverty or whose knowledge of the world is not tied to the whims of religious parents, is ignorant in light of the wealth of information currently at their fingertips. They choose to opt in favor of a magical creation story instead of evolutionary theory and/or the primeval atom theory, and that's quite ignorant (holding a belief even after the evidence has contradicted it).

Yes, Leeboy:  spot on.

As for the OP, I have never heard a xian be able to give a proper response to that chapter & verse in Mark. Either what the ol' JC said was 100% true or it wasn't. Read those verses again:

Mark V16:15-18:

“He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues, they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

FALSE! Does not happen.

Point #2: Razorfreak does not know his Bible, so I stayed out of this until now.

I guess the miracles aren't much popular in the media. I have heard of dozens of churches in Russian villages, where statues or pictures of Madonna wept the tears of liquids like olive oil, for example. Locals usually stores these liquids and uses them for healing, there are always some "miraculous" healings around. Or recently, I have seen a photos of a potato, which some women cut through and there was a very precise image of Jesus inside. I've cut through a lot of potatoes in my life, but never saw anything like this one.
It's a similar thing, like some hinduish statuettes drank hectolitres of milk (but this was also in TV), just for christians. Muslims have their miracles too, for example, one muslim had cut through some fruit and there were seeds shaped in form of arabian writing of "Allah" or "God". Yeah, photos were there too. Something similar also happened with one sandwich.
Yes, miracles are in the world, specially in last decades and the number is still increasing, they just never get to the media, believing in anything higher than us isn't a good for most of marketing strategies. Even churches usually keeps away from this. Only independent press documents these events more thoroughly.
There's no logical explanation for miracles, when we don't understand something, we say it's magic, and of course, magic doesn't exist. Well, no problem, these miracles are so frequent for people to see it for themselves, there's no other way for a person using the brain. Feel free to look at any statue's base for an oil or blood hose, leading to eyes from the inside.

I think, the fact, that both people of any and none religion experiences their share of miracles, is very significant. It's a sign of not dividing human beings on believers and unbelievers, a sign of acceptable tolerance, not of a jealous sky daddy.

Actually as a general note I responded with the fact Mark ended at 16:8 in early manuscripts. As Mark is the only Gospel with these instructions to the Apostles and verses 9-20 of Mark 16 were considered suspect, I suggested it was never there at all. See Post #57. If the Mark 16 ending was added by well meaning 2nd or 3rd century Christians then there were never miracles in the first place so not having them today would be not a surprise. I expected someone would react to this statement but no one did.

How utterly ridiculous.  What impact would miracles from a Jewish god have upon pagan peoples who already had their own gods who also performed miracles ?  ( remember pharaoh's  own sorcerers duplicated the same miracles of Moses and Aaron.  Exodus 7: 10-12 )

2000 years ago the ancient world was dominated by belief in miraculous intervention.  They would not be baffled or overawed by such claims.  "Oh your Christian god can performs magic tricks, so what, our gods do that as well. Next !"

 

Miracles would have the most impact upon people living in the modern scientific era.....and not upon those of the ancient world who already believed in them.

 

Think about it: 

Supernatural miracles would completely offset the claims of scientific knowledge and be an indispuatable counter-balance in support of spiritual beliefs !

 

...yet your god was too stupid  to grasp that blatantly simple concept.    Go figure.

I have to say, there are no miracles, or anything supernatural. Everything what exists, is natural. Things like 'supernatural' or 'miracles' are effects of scientific areas of knowledge, which are not yet discovered or approved at this moment, but most probably will be. There is no 'spiritual' opposite or alternative to science, both researches different aspects of the same thing, the world. A desire of the 'spiritual aspect' researchers is to unify these both areas of knowledge into one, which will:
1) bring new, promising expansion of scientific knowledge
2) allow a physical realization of world knowledge and distribute a benefit from it to world public.

However, if you think, that 'supernatural miracles' would have such an effect in this era, you should notice one detail. Current scientific community is in power and controls most of media, considered as credible. The cult of white coats has just louder mouth, shortly said, and it's resistant towards a change, just like any other institution. Science changes itself, but usually from within, when there is effort of it's members. As far as I know, it's quite resistant to outer influences. I'll maybe exaggerate it now, but could a group of common people convince a Pope to change and correct some texts in Bible?
I mean, this is what theologists themselves decide, the process of Bible translations, versions, and so on, common people just less or more believes in their versions of Bible, provided by the religional hierarchy.

I think, that explaining everything by currently approved scientific knowledge is too conservative, it may miss some important details. An effect, explained from 90% may have some dangerous surprises in remaining 10% we don't know of, because our approved knowledge (conservative may be outdated) yet doesn't include it. A "half of truth" is a similar thing like a lie. What is a 9/10 of the truth?
I'd suggest more open-mindness in research, being more careful with Occam's razor, to not cut away something vital.

 

So there is a scientific explanation for the Red Sea parting itself down the middle just long enough for the Israelites to cross and then conveniently closing again just as Pharaoh's armies were within its boundaries ?

There exists a scientific explanation for how Balaam's donkey spoke in human language ?

There exists a scientific explanation as to how Lot's wife was instantly transformed from living flesh into a "pillar" of salt ?

There exists a scientific explanation for the simultaneous deaths of all the firstborn in Egypt ( which include both human and animal victims )

There exists a scientific explanation for the three young Hebrew men, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednigo, not burning to death when they were tossed alive into a pagan king's furnace ?

Care to formulate any theories ?  I'm all ears.

 

Neurologists. Microbiologists. Molecular Geneticists.

Those are the first terms that come to mind for you to go ahead and suggest you look into the work of when you say retarded things like, "Science has never explained how it is our brain works."

There are certain things (subjective consciousness comes to mind) that are yet fully understood, but the brain as a topic is quite well covered.

You're missing the point and are attempting to argue semantics.  Wanna try again?

 

Which leads me to ask, if God's nature compels him to help humanity by using miracles, why no miracles today ?

 

Who says there aren't?  Because you have not been witness to something unexplained does not mean they don't happen.

It's interesting how your mind works.  Are you a half-empty kinda person?

I say that because instead of thinking of the people he brought into the faith, you only see the people who didn't follow. 

Oh, keeping with biblical text, you should also remember, they were not meant to believe either so it should have been obvious that the miracles were NOT meant for the Jews who were not chosen to accept.

You can be as dismissive if my arguments as you please, but the all powerfull god that you worship used to intervene in the affairs of both believer and unbeliever by miraculously destroying whole cities ( Jericho, Sodom and Gomorrah )  using magical plagues to punish the entire nation of Egypt, and even flooded the entire PLANET to show that he's god.....and now he only shows up at those hokey "miracle healing crusades" to cure some old person of terminal liver spots.

 

Your answers are like those of a slick politician..vague and self-serving.

I'm not dismissing anything.  The largest problem I have is I have no clue as to what answer would actually make any sense to you or anyone else.  You stated that Jesus' miracles were a waste.  I simply pointed out how they weren't from a different perspective.  You asked why no miracles today yet I asked you how do you know that?  If anything, you've dismissed my response with a straw man response.  From miracles to God's wrath?  What exactly are we discussing here?  What is this thread supposed to answer?  From my very first post, I asked what would be "proof?"  Should this discussion have begun with attempting to list what I consider to be a miracle and then have you refute it?  Maybe vice versa? 

I'm not trying to be "vague and self-serving."  It's difficult to answer when I'm not sure if an answer actually exists for you to not agree with, but simply understand.  The question was asked about Mark 16; my answer was about context and time frame.  I'm not even sure if there was understanding there.  The responses so far have seemed simply dismissive and regarded as "ridiculous" since no attempt to understand exists.  How am I supposed to respond next?  It's like you attempting to explain to me why you chose that picture as your avitar: if I have no interest in attempting to understand why you chose that picture and I just dismiss each response you give with the same "it's disturbing" response, was anything accomplished?  Was anything gained?  Was any bridge built (if there is even a desire to)?

Do you even understand the point I'm trying to make or am I wasting both our times?

If everyone had a equal point of view or just a general definition of what a "miracle" is, then it would nullify your statement.  Problem is, 10 people in a room will come up with 10 different ideas as to what a miracle is and at least one will say miracles don't exist. 

By the way, "repeatable?"  If a miracle were indeed repeatable, would it still be a miracle?

Different topic for a different thread.  I didn't intent to thread jack this one.

Who said that?  I know I didn't.

Now if you care to read it again, it was about non-believers ACCEPTING miracles, more specifically accepting what was called a miracle, not witnessing them.  Would you care to rephrase your response now?

EDIT: Here's an example...if I called the ability to think a miracle, what would you call it?  And before you call it evolution of the human mind, think for a second, why did the mind itself have to evolve?  It could have remained simple.  It could have remained like that of species that died off before humans like the dinos: simple and instinctual.  But humanity was granted thought, the ability to reason.  I consider that a miracle whether you believe it a gift from God or evolution taking door number 2 for human progression.

Granted.  I suppose I take the high road often enough.  For example, we use the term photosynthesis to explain how plants convert CO2 to O2 using light for energy (I'm keeping it simple so please don't kill me for missing out a few details).  The question as to WHY it happens however I regard as a miracle.  It never had to occur.  But it does and the fact that it does, not how it does, is the miracle.

I know I'm about to get roasted again...

It doesn't have to be "supernatural" however I think to accept that there are miracles, you'd almost have to accept there is something above natural law.  The problem and the reason why I wonder if non-believers even accept what would be called a miracle is this - we, meaning theists, believe that the supernatural made the natural exist.  Not accepting that the supernatural exists means that only nature can produce anything that could be regarded as a miracle and hence explainable, i.e. cause and effect, so it wouldn't really be a miracle after all.

So by that, not how it occurs but WHY it occurs and the fact that it is or has occurred is what I, for the most part, see as a miracle.  By that is how I can say that I see miracles, new or established, every day.  And my faith led me to believe those events are gifts from God.  Human reasoning is something I regard as a miracle but as a single event since you can see humans everywhere doing it all the time.  How a person can learn to be an EMT and use those skills to save others is a miracle because if that miracle had not occurred (or continues to occur), that is to say if we did not have the ability to learn, we would no longer have EMT's.  It's not how a person uses those skills but rather the sheer fact that the individual actually had the ability to learn those skills is what I regard as a miracle, a gift from God.

I agree that example is statistics.  If continued, eventually you'll hit someone or someone will hit you.

When I was in a motorcycle accident recently and it left me with multiple fractures in my leg, the fact that I survived wasn't a miracle.  I wore a helmet, had the right gear on, etc.  Statistics showed that I would eventually be in some kind of accident so I took precautions to ensure that I would hopefully survive.  Once at the hospital, I regard it a miracle that there were talented people who helped me recover.  Anyone can become a doctor but the miracle are those who truly learn the practice to actually provide aid, if that makes any sense.

This supports my point I was making in post 93 as to why I honestly believe non-believers will not or do not accept miracles.  But your post here illustrates one thing that I do not believe no matter the explanation, no matter the argument, I do not believe that a theist and an atheist will ever agree on the subject of miracles.

 

Here's the deal razorphreak ....

(  yuk, what a depressing user name, why couldn't you choose something more uplifting like my user name ? ).....

the source of my frustration comes from the fact that many Christians go to great lengths to assure their faithful brethren that, euphemistically speaking, God is "The Big Dog" the "The Alpha Male" the "End All and Be All" of supernatural power.  Everything from the smallest sub-atomic particle to the largest galaxy to even the universe itself attests to the sheer magnitude of his supernatural abilities. You get it ?

 

The "power of God" is a frequent topic among Christian preachers and evangelists.  Like it or not "miracles" are also  a major part of your ( and my former ) religion.   Well, these claims deserve to be examined; it's an issue of put up or shut up. Either God can...or he can't.

 

Well, like many skeptics, I'm calling your bluff.  All these miracles that you described as only being viable based upon special circumstances, and particular audiences, and cultural contexts, and on and on.....that's bull shit.

 

The excuse that only believers can observe those miracles..well, did the drowning Egyptians ( who were unbelievers ) have any problem understanding that their deaths were predicated upon a miraculous display of divine power ?  How could they not ?  They weren't stupid were they ?

Did any unbelieving observers of this maritime disaster fail to understand that what they were observing was a suspension of natural law because seas don't normally part themselves ? What do you think ?

When the walls of Jericho fell down without natural explanation, did it's inhabitants not also comprehend that  massive stone walls don't normally fall down of their own accord ? They were unbelievers, too but there is no way for them to be ignorant of what they were observing.

 

Christians like yourself who attest to God's ability to perform miracles but who backtrack and obfuscate when challenged remind me of a man who constantly boasts of his ability to knock people out with a single punch and then when challenged to prove himself suddenly makes excuses and backs down....again, either God can do what you say or he can't.  There is no middle ground for you to retreat to.

It's put up or shut up.

 

Btw, Benny Hinn the world famous faith healer, while in the African nation of Ghana, claimed to have miraculously raised a man from the dead, do you believe him ?  Yes....No ?