PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
RULES!
RULES
This is the
Kill Em
With
Kindness
Forum!
PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
RULES!
RULES
This is the
Kill Em
With
Kindness
Forum!
PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
RULES!
This is the
Kill Em
With
Kindness
Forum!
RULES
PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
RULES!
This is the
Kill Em
With
Kindness
Forum!
PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
RULES!
RULES
This is the
Kill Em
With
Kindness
Forum!
PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
RULES!
BigUniverse wrote,
"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."
And science does indeed study existence from the smallest scale to that of the entire visible Universe and beyond, from the purely mechanical to the nature of mind and consciousness, without pre-judging what will be found. The image of the microscope grossly misrepresents what 'science' encompasses. Science does indeed try to understand all of life by studying all of life.
The religious obsess over the 'why' , the 'purpose', but there is no reason that there should be such a purpose to be found, at least outside ourselves. The search for such an external justification for our existence is the vision of the slave, who can only conceive of purpose in his master's will.
Only someone with no real knowledge of the scientific approach could make such claims as a made in that post. Many many scientists will point to the infinitely greater wonders revealed by our investigations into the Universe than the primitive, ignorant, error riddled 'visions' of the relgious scriptures.
The writings of Carl Sagan, for one, give the lie to the sentiments expressed in that post.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
Yes, I have actually.
You say that the Bible is "one the most reflective works on meaning and purpose" - that you know of. You clearly need to branch out and read more then.
I beg to differ. There are many Christians that believe the Bible is the literal, infallible word of god - and believe that every jot and tittle can only be interpreted in one, specific way. The Bible makes some very clear claims as to the ORIGIN of the universe, how the earth and all of it's life came into existence - Claims that clearly have no evidence to back them up - and many of which fly in the face of what science has revealed to us. You keep using the word "reflective", like it means something meaningful; It just sounds like poetic nonsense to me.
What does this tell you about religion then? As science uncovers more and more mysteries, religion has less and less to fill.
Right... Science is an epistemology - it gives us the method in which we acquire our knowledge about the universe we find ourselves in - it helps us define it. From this knowledge, we are capable of forming our worldviews. Without science, humans had a pretty archaic worldview - a worldview which invoked supernatural explanations to natural phenomena, as there were no other alternatives. I think this is what Hamby means as well - so I think we're all on the same page here. However, what place does religion have in a worldview that is defined by science? The supernatural has no meaning to science. The supernatural tells us nothing that can be tested to be true. So what purpose does it serve?
There goes that word again... "reflective". It would seem that you're distilling religion down to "philosophy". Of course, there is much philosophy contained within many religions. That doesn't make the rest of the supernatural nonsense contained within, worth anything at all. Philosophy exists just fine without the supernatural. What specifically, in your religion, allows you to have a worldview that is truer, and better than one that is defined by science and philosophy?
This is another point were anachronistic reflection takes place. The supernatural is not evoked for the purpose of giving an explanation to natural phenomena, but rather evoked to find a means to control the uncontrollable, or to have hope in their present world in the face of an undissuadable tragedy. Those in the ancient world rarely had the means as we do to avoid certain tragic fates, as the victims of floods (they had no FEMA), plagues, wars, etc. How could they preserve any hope in these things for which despair is to prevade?
In an inability to control their fate on their own, they had to project this control to supernatural forces, faith in the only thing that could make the impossible possible, to preserve any sense of hope they could have at all.
An ancient society facing an inevitable war against a superior foe, would have faith in the hands of the gods, to turn their odds into their favor, or they would have to accept inevitable despair. The invoking of the supernatural is in the end only an expression of faith against the odds, an expression of hope in the face of inevitable despair.
This sort of framework is not even foreign to unbelievers, you find similar sort of expressions, though void of the same sort of magically symbolism, are product of magical thinking nonetheless. In replace of religious belief's of divine providence, of MLK's Promise Land, you get visions of secular utopias, such as the beliefs of what communism would bring. In the thoughts of our "new atheist", the Dawkins, Dennet, Harris like we get the magical sort of belief of achieving our true potentialities, of an inherently good nature tainted by outside forces such as religion, that the end of religion will usher in a new and glorious dawn of man. Such beliefs (though somewhat exaggerated for affect, but no less magical) are the basis for why even such a forum like this exist.
Literalism in the expression of some Christian faiths didn't spring out of nothing. In fact modern literalist and our atheists have much in common, in a dewey-eyed devotion to science, and a modern sensibility devoid of poetic imagination. It is why they require from the bible a sort of modern history textbook precision, which is far from the sensibility of premodern men who cared little for what actually happened, but rather for what was the meaning of what happened.
Even this sensibility, in it's modern expression, in the Christian faith, is to reform one's religion into the context of modern of life. With the rise of modern science, and the curiosity it brought along for the privileged, and the desire for such men to find that sort of quesy wonderment in the Bible, some men desired to read it back into their religion.
(this is not to say a sense of literalism did not exist prior to the modern age, but rather the reasons for why it existed than and now, are not the same.)
Now this is where, we see how the atheist and those creationist think alike. The Bible makes no such claims about the Origin (other than god created all) of the universe, or of how the earth and all of life came into existence. Such claims involve a great deal of anachronistic thinking. To say that the Genesis creation story is a claim on how the earth and life came into existence, is no less sillier than saying that the story of the Tortoise and the Hare is making a claim that rabbits and turtles can talk.
It assumes with great of arrogance, that not only were men of the ancient world ignorant, but ignorant of their ignorance as well. Individuals such as yourself, the Dawkins and Sagans of the world, assume that their scientific curiosity about the hows of life, is a biological rather than culturally placed curiosity. That it is something inherent in us, rather than something that developed as the result of having tools to explore such questions, and the privilege needed to devote oneself to pondering them
I can be a testament for this, in that I had no real curiosity about the hows of life, the mechanics of how we came to be. Though I've spent a good deal of time learning about evolution, the desire to learn about it only sprung up when I became familiar with controversy brewing over it. From the earliest age I can remember, I had no problem accepting evolution as the explanation, but had no real interest in learning this explanation, it was trivial to me. It was as if a mathematician had presented a long and intricate equation and said that a certain number was it's solution. I had no desire to explore if he was right or wrong, the solution and the problem were trivial matters to me. Trivial to the questions that really mattered in my life. I had no emotional interest in the solution.
And contrary to what you may feel, I do not buck the norm, in fact the greater deal of humanity is no different than me. The bible is nearly null and void of such reflection, in fact you'd be hard pressed to find one verse in the New Testament speaking of God as creator. It's only the privileged who are so devoted to contemplating these mechanics. For those who live lives of any real suffering, or oppression, meaning becomes the most vital question of their existence, the "is there any hope or meaning in all of this or not"--a question for which their despair and hope hinge on.
I'll assume our common atheist so deluded with their dimwitted way of thinking can hardly grasp this. As they assume this sort of wonderment, Dawkins sense of wanting to bow down in front of the stars is universal. As Bobspence attempts to peddle in his post:
"many scientists will point to the infinitely greater wonders revealed by our investigations into the Universe."
He like Sagan fails to understand that beyond privileged societies, this sort of wonderment is null. The stars and the biology of life is as amusing to me as the taste of a cup of tea before bed. The Bobspences of the world are no different than a stamp collector speaking of his passion for collecting stamps, and speaking of the few in his collection he is fond of the most, but the difference in the intelligence of the stamp collector and the Dawkins/Sagans of the world is that the stamp collector more than likely knows that everyone else is unlikely to share in his amusement.
Well, you pretty much created a dilemma with a blur of an opponent. I find Jesus Christ, a Christ centered worldview to be the truest approximation of life there is, as the pervading voice of what love, beauty, forgiveness, hope, meaning there is to be found. I find the Christian worldview to be superior to any other worldview in this encompassing regard, nor is this worldview void of scientific insights in it's contemplation. SO the question you asked is a bit senseless, in that you would have to define that worldview, like pit the christian worldview against a defined humanist one, and what in this worldview gives a truer understanding of Love and etc... than the Christian one.
But it's been my experience, that I rarely find individuals vouching for any other worldview, besides their undeveloped ones, that have barely thought of the questions that the Gospels attempt to confront. Unlike some theist, I surround myself with works from all sorts of perspective, from Dawkins, and company, to the Bertrand Russells, and Daniel Dennets, to the Sagans, or those very old school philosophers, but I have yet to find a work that reflects on what the the writers of the Gospels reflect on, with even the slighted bit of depth. If you know of such works, let me know, because there's a decent chance i'd look into picking them up.
To quote Pascal:"The philosophers talk to you about the dignity of man, and they tempt you to pride, or they talk to you about the misery of man, and they tempt you to despair. But "Where, but in the simplicity of the Gospel, can you hear about both the dignity of man and the misery of man?"
Well, I for one consider Sagan as social critic, particularly in his work "The Demon Haunted World" to be dimwitted. And I thought this when I was an unbeliever. Sagan is surely no Karl Marx. In fact I wrote a long and lengthy essay on it (as well as on similar ideas of others) some years back for an English class, that my Californian professor now accompanies with the book in every subsequent reading of it. If you desire, i can email it to you.
Another poor assessment on your part. A religious person who finds a sense of great purpose and meaning in his life, conceives of it's greatness as being God's own. If he found a greater sense of meaning and purpose that he felt wasn't God's own, he'd abandon his god, or Gods all together. He is not a slave to the masters will, but freely sees his will as his master's own.
My use of the image of microscope, was not intended to be implied literally, but rather to convey that science is concerned to that which is reducible. Science is not all encompassing, and to understand this distinction in spheres is rather simple. Imagine if your wife were to ask you why do you love her? She's not seeking a scientific answer for it, about the biology of your sentiment of love, nor are you going to provide that sort of explanation for her--unless you're seeking a divorce. She is seeking a "poetic" justification for why you love her. Or if I were to ask what is the meaning of true love, scientist within their medium would hardly be able to articulate it beyond a mere biological sentiment. But rather the question involves the poetic reflection of our everyday lives to explain it, to give it meaning. Notions such as morality, beauty, love, justice, all fall under this sphere, though such notions can be informed by science, science is not a sphere that defines the truth in them, just like thinking more scientifically does not mean that i would be thinking more morally.
And it may just be that such poetic reflection is trivial to the common atheist on this forum, who lives in his own version of disney land, and it may just as well explain ryandinan antagonism to "poetic nonsense". But for those whose everyday lives involves conflicts and struggles with this poetic sphere, such as suffering, and despair, prevailing indifference, it's not this sphere that's trivial, but rather the scientific sphere you exalt
The Bible as books written reflecting on conditions of suffering, misery, and oppression of the ancient Hebrews, which accumulates in the Gospels, with the image of the suffering and humiliated God is a work of poetic reflection not scientific reflection.
And though you and privileged others may be able to shake yourselves off of poetic reflection, for me, even if i were to no longer believe, it would still be a Christ haunted world.
I think I should commend you on your ability to write. Clearly you have a good debate skill and understand rhetoric. Your suggestion that ignorance accompanied by suffering and despair justifies God is still very irrational (I see your argument as justifying why people are willing to be irrational). You say in one hand that such thought is a privilege and that many don't care, but still believe that the many that don't care are (ultimately) right in their belief? If I don't care about something I don't claim ultimate knowledge of it, that is the embodiment of rational thinking. I will agree that many suffering people would come to a religion in order to come to peace with their current despair because of good to come (after death) without questioning it merely because of their situation. What I don't do is validate their religion because of their position or desire for good to come (after death). I argue that although one might cry at the death of a fictional character in a book they are reading the book itself is no more true (non-fiction) because of it. The Bible can be used to introspect our nature and bring hope, it can also be used to do the opposite. Remember that the Bible was written by man, a creature that is known to express its emotions through poetic language.
If I made a bad case remember I only reflect my own thoughts and am unaware of any support from other individuals on this forum.
Actually, you agree with the 10 commandments ot a significant degree. All the stuff you mention as objections are just the differences that make debates and reevaluation of positions possible. If you agreed fully, there would be little to discuss and thereby little to keep our mind on the target.
Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.
I agree that religion is also for the purpose of "controlling the uncontrollable" (as well as explaining the unexplainable). Regardless of the different uses of religion, none of these say anything about whether or not the religion is founded on truth.
I'm sorry, but how in the world is that "magical thinking"? Thinking about a world in which religion is discarded in favor of science, is not a belief. It's a goal. It may be a lofty goal, that may be difficult to achieve, but it's not in the realm of "magic" or "supernatural". It is something that could occur in the real, natural world.
Literalism in the expression of some Christian faiths didn't spring out of nothing. In fact modern literalist and our atheists have much in common, in a dewey-eyed devotion to science, and a modern sensibility devoid of poetic imagination. It is why they require from the bible a sort of modern history textbook precision, which is far from the sensibility of premodern men who cared little for what actually happened, but rather for what was the meaning of what happened.
What purpose does "poetic imagination" serve in a scientific inquiry? Science is used to determine truths and facts about our natural world, through an objective, structured approach. If poetic imagination was inserted into the process, it wouldn't work.
As for Biblical literalists lacking this poetic imagination, who are you to say that the Bible requires such an approach when interpreting it's passages? After all - what amount of poetic imagination is required to soften the meaning of the biblical laws - and specifically, the more brutal, ethically and morally inferior ones, such as: Stoning adulterers to death, torturing/killing your children for disrespect, owning slaves, etc? If this is supposed to be the most perfect, divine document, I wouldn't expect to find such rubbish within.
Now this is where, we see how the atheist and those creationist think alike. The Bible makes no such claims about the Origin (other than god created all) of the universe, or of how the earth and all of life came into existence. Such claims involve a great deal of anachronistic thinking. To say that the Genesis creation story is a claim on how the earth and life came into existence, is no less sillier than saying that the story of the Tortoise and the Hare is making a claim that rabbits and turtles can talk.
The Bible doesn't make these claims? Yes, it does. The Genesis story, in particular, is full of specifics. While I agree that it is silly because I know it's fiction, you re-interpret it from an apologetic, "poetically imaginative" angle, to hand-craft it to be "compatible" with your modern understanding of the universe.
But they were, by today's standards, ignorant. They didn't have the knowledge we have at our disposal today.
Of course our desire to understand our world is biologically inherent in all of us. The "culture" of the person seeking the answsers to the "how's of life", is simply one of many filters that affects the results. The people that wrote the bible were not seeking scientific truth; They were passing along myths as reality.
And why do you assume that religion provides a truthful answer to the "meaning" of life? Because it makes you feel good when you think about heaven? That's hardly a reason to believe something is true - and seems to be the main reason why so many people want to believe it. And "dimwitted way of thinking"? Try Realistic. We're not clouded by religious dogma. This doesn't mean we don't understand and experience emotions such as hope and despair.
I realize you believe in Jesus. But I asked you specifically, what in your worldview was superior to all others. Why does belief in Jesus give you the idea that you have a greater insight into the world and it's workings? The "teachings of Jesus" are not unique to the Bible... Regardless of the amount of "reflectiveness" the Bible may contain, it says nothing about whether or not belief in a supernatural deity is true. These invaluable philosophical reflections you speak of, only attempt to give credence to a book that is mostly founded on fiction. Take out all the supernatural and nasty bits of the Bible, and what do you have? A book called the Jefferson Bible.