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PLEASE MAKE
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This is the
Kill Em
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PLEASE MAKE
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FOLLOW THE
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This is the
Kill Em
With
Kindness
Forum!
RULES
PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
RULES!
This is the
Kill Em
With
Kindness
Forum!
PLEASE MAKE
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This is the
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I haven't followed him at all, wasn't really aware of him, and after all he is only a philosopher, not a scientist, although he clearly has studied up on much of the science.
At lot of his ideas seem quite consistent with mine.
Whatever the origins of what exists, God is not, by its very definition, a plausible part of any reasonable explanation, which would be required to explain God himself. 'God' is more difficult to justify than any current ideas about the nature of existence, where existence refers to what exists, of which any God is a necessary part.
Whatever is the 'reason' why 'there is something rather than nothing', I don't find it a useful or meaningful question, when I actually think about it.
To bring in a God to 'explain' it requires that a God create itself which is a logical non sequiter. Or that something be the reason why itself exists, but that does not require that that 'thing' be intelligent or infinite. I currently think that if it is meaningful to assign a 'cause' or reason for existence, that can only be in the nature of the totality of what is, not a part of it, which at a quick scan, seems roughly consistent with what Quentin Smith thinks.
It seems he agrees with me, that if a God exists in any sense, the evidence is that he is evil. Yaay! I like him more all the time.
Hmm.. maybe I should look into his ideas more, he might rate with me up there with Dan Dennet, as one of the few really 'cool' philosophers, who are also very much into Science. Thanks for drawing him to my attention.
What I most value about people like Dennett is not so much as authorities in any sense, but their ability to find ways to present complex and subtle ideas in ways which make it easier for me to 'get my head around them'. IOW to grasp the concepts contained in those ideas, and incorporate them in my own 'world-view'.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
I got this from the introduction of the ESV study bible (English standard version). “Genesis originated thousands of years ago- a fact easily forgotten when it is read in modern English translation. It was composed in an age and culture far removed from the experiences of most modern readers. Due allowance must be made for this distance between text and reader. While modern English translations attempt to bridge this gap, it is not always possible to replicate the nuances and wordplays of the Hebrew original. Moreover, Genesis employs literary techniques not commonly used today…. These feature present obstacles that can be overcome only through patient study of the text.”
So basically the Old Testament was written in Hebrew and when it was translated into the Septuagint and then to the Masoretic text where we get our English text, some meanings do not translate clearly. Some concepts are not fully and clearly conveyed in current translations as in the original text due to changing in the meanings of words and phrases and the lack of perfect parallels when comparing multiple languages. Of course, this is going to happen when books are translated, as is the case with the Bible. That’s why it is important to study how it was used in the original meaning.
While researching this, I found that on day one v.3 –“Whether the sun was created at the same time with, or long before, the earth, the dense accumulation of fogs and vapors which enveloped the chaos had covered the globe with a settled gloom. But by the command of God, light was rendered visible; the thick murky clouds were dispersed, broken, or rarefied, and light diffused over the expanse of waters. The effect is described in the name “day,” which in Hebrew signifies “warmth,” “heat”; while the name “night” signifies a “rolling up,” as night wraps all things in a shady mantle.”
(1) Jamieson, R., Fausset, A. R., Fausset, A. R., Brown, D., & Brown, D. (1997). A commentary, critical and explanatory, on the Old and New Testaments (Ge 1:3). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.
Also, Halley’s Bible handbook describes the creation days like this:
Day one– “the earth’s surface must have been still in darkness, because the cooling earth crust, covered with boiling water, must have sent up dense layers of mists and gases that completely shut out the sun’s light. Light and the succession of day and night, were established on the earth’s surface when the cooling process had diminished the density of the fog sufficiently for light to penetrate. However, the sun itself did not become visible till the fourth day.”
Day two- “the firmament, called “Heaven,” here means the atmosphere, or layer of air, between the water-covered earth and the clouds above, made possible by the cooling of the earth’s waters, still warm enough to make clouds that hid the sun.”
Day three- land and vegetation. “The dense mists watered the newly formed land, which was still warm by its own heat, while the creation of vegetation may seem out of place on day 3, it anticipates what God will later say in v.29-30 Concerning food for both humanity and other creatures.”
Then God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to everything that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food”; and it was so.
Day four- “sun, moon, stars. They must have been created “in the beginning” on the “first day” their light must have penetrated the earth’s mists, while they themselves were not visible. But now, due to the lessened density of clouds, as a result of further cooling of the earth, they became visible on earth. Seasons came when the earth’s surface ceased to receive heat from within, and became dependent on the sun as its only source of heat.”
The ESV study notes for v.16 resolve your point on light being created before light sources : “God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made the stars also. The term made here is from Hebrew (‘asah) and its means that God “fashioned” or “worked on” them; it does not of itself imply that they did not exist in any form before this. “
The Bible is consistent with itself and consistent with reality. This supports the fact God exists and sent his son Jesus the Messiah in human form as an infant to fulfill the Old Testament by dying for our sins and being raised three days later. Now it is Easter and this is what the Christian life is all about, for there is no Christianity if Jesus did not come or die or rise from the grave. I hope you all can see his loving and amazing power for what He truly is.
(2) Jamieson, R., Fausset, A. R., Fausset, A. R., Brown, D., & Brown, D. (1997). A commentary, critical and explanatory, on the Old and New Testaments (Ge 1:3). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.
I got this from the introduction of the ESV study bible (English standard version). “Genesis originated thousands of years ago- a fact easily forgotten when it is read in modern English translation. It was composed in an age and culture far removed from the experiences of most modern readers. Due allowance must be made for this distance between text and reader. While modern English translations attempt to bridge this gap, it is not always possible to replicate the nuances and wordplays of the Hebrew original. Moreover, Genesis employs literary techniques not commonly used today…. These feature present obstacles that can be overcome only through patient study of the text.”
So basically the Old Testament was written in Hebrew and when it was translated into the Septuagint and then to the Masoretic text where we get our English text, some meanings do not translate clearly. Some concepts are not fully and clearly conveyed in current translations as in the original text due to changing in the meanings of words and phrases and the lack of perfect parallels when comparing multiple languages. Of course, this is going to happen when books are translated, as is the case with the Bible. That’s why it is important to study how it was used in the original meaning.
While researching this, I found that on day one v.3 –“Whether the sun was created at the same time with, or long before, the earth, the dense accumulation of fogs and vapors which enveloped the chaos had covered the globe with a settled gloom. But by the command of God, light was rendered visible; the thick murky clouds were dispersed, broken, or rarefied, and light diffused over the expanse of waters. The effect is described in the name “day,” which in Hebrew signifies “warmth,” “heat”; while the name “night” signifies a “rolling up,” as night wraps all things in a shady mantle.”
(1) Jamieson, R., Fausset, A. R., Fausset, A. R., Brown, D., & Brown, D. (1997). A commentary, critical and explanatory, on the Old and New Testaments (Ge 1:3). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.
Also, Halley’s Bible handbook describes the creation days like this:
Day one– “the earth’s surface must have been still in darkness, because the cooling earth crust, covered with boiling water, must have sent up dense layers of mists and gases that completely shut out the sun’s light. Light and the succession of day and night, were established on the earth’s surface when the cooling process had diminished the density of the fog sufficiently for light to penetrate. However, the sun itself did not become visible till the fourth day.”
Day two- “the firmament, called “Heaven,” here means the atmosphere, or layer of air, between the water-covered earth and the clouds above, made possible by the cooling of the earth’s waters, still warm enough to make clouds that hid the sun.”
Day three- land and vegetation. “The dense mists watered the newly formed land, which was still warm by its own heat, while the creation of vegetation may seem out of place on day 3, it anticipates what God will later say in v.29-30 Concerning food for both humanity and other creatures.”
Then God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to everything that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food”; and it was so.
Day four- “sun, moon, stars. They must have been created “in the beginning” on the “first day” their light must have penetrated the earth’s mists, while they themselves were not visible. But now, due to the lessened density of clouds, as a result of further cooling of the earth, they became visible on earth. Seasons came when the earth’s surface ceased to receive heat from within, and became dependent on the sun as its only source of heat.”
The ESV study notes for v.16 resolve your point on light being created before light sources : “God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made the stars also. The term made here is from Hebrew (‘asah) and its means that God “fashioned” or “worked on” them; it does not of itself imply that they did not exist in any form before this. “
The Bible is consistent with itself and consistent with reality. This supports the fact God exists and sent his son Jesus the Messiah in human form as an infant to fulfill the Old Testament by dying for our sins and being raised three days later. Now it is Easter and this is what the Christian life is all about, for there is no Christianity if Jesus did not come or die or rise from the grave. I hope you all can see his loving and amazing power for what He truly is.
Now let me describe the actual early history of the planet.
The Earth started formed from the accumulation of dust and larger rocks, and was very hot, since as that mass collided with growing body, much energy was released.
The early atmosphere formed from gases driven out of the top layers of rock by the heat, and from 4.4 bya (billion years ago) to 4.0 bya there were no gases which could support life, and any water was in the form of vapour, because of the heat. Note: water vapour is transparent, clouds are visible because they contain tiny drops of liquid water.
So, right from the beginning, there was night and day, no liquid water, only clear skies and land.
After about 4 bya, water could begin to condense and start to form the oceans.
Around 3.3 bya, life begin to form in the oceans, probably in close association with volcanic vents.
In the beginning, there was only 'land', water only arrived later in the form of comets and icy meteors from the outer reaches of the solar system. Note: land first, not water. Oceans only gradually accumulated in the lower regions of the surface.
Life would have first formed in the oceans, initially as simple plant life which could extract nourishment and energy from converting the CO2 in the early atmosphere to oxygen, which had to build up in the atmosphere and the oceans to allow animal life to emerge.
The sequence of life beyond simple algae started with marine invertebrates, then fish, and then land plants, which had to become established before animal life could emerge from the ocean.
Initially amphibians came onto the land for part of their activity and life-cycle, then we had reptiles, and mammals.
Flowering plants were the last major group to emerge, which produced fruit. So fruit trees only appeared long after the major groups of animals.
The first flying creatures were insects, very early in the emergence of life onto the land.
Birds were after the reptiles, from which they evolved.
Most of the stars long preceded our Sun, and the moon was captured or formed in the early history of the Earth, well after the Sun and the Earth itself.
You may note a 'few' discrepancies with the Genesis account.... but this account is based on extensive investigation of physical reality, not the imagination of early, uninformed tribes in the Middle East.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
Genesis was ideated at least in 1000 BC, probably before... Why continue to read it as it was written today? Descripition (or scientific description) of creation was not their intent.
This wouldn't matter at all. Even if you got all the translations correct, you're changing the story to account for differences in thousands or hundreds of years. Bible "science" is off by billions of years. It's almost like it was written by a bunch of primitive idiots in the desert.
It may not have been meant for submission to a scientific journal, but I think it was meant to be reasonably accurate, ie true.
I hate it when Theists try to cop out when we point out serious discrepancies like that, and say "it wasn't meant to be a science book". That is a lame dodge.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
What I'm saying is that WE want to know how things work, and it's natural for us to think like that, but millenniums ago this was not so. For that people these stories tells them how to live their life, not how everything come to be. Their point of view was entirely different from ours: it's all about "what am I supposed to do" and above all "what is the chain of command". This is how one should (if I understood everything right) read the first books of 'the' bible.
"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whip cream."--Frank Zappa
http://atheisticgod.blogspot.com/ Books on atheism
"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whip cream."--Frank Zappa
http://atheisticgod.blogspot.com/ Books on atheism
Even back then, there were people who did want to know 'how things work', even within the societies such as you describe.
The ancient Greeks were more inclined to 'enlightenment', altho they did have Plato, who was more backward in his thinking.
And conversely, people with attitudes you describe are still very much with us, probably all fundies could be described that way.
The Bible represents (mostly) the attitudes of such people, who were dominant in those tribes.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
Of course there were curious people back there, if not we would not be writing on internet, but generally the answer (to how things work) was "there's a spirit in it".
The great greeks were always asking "why?" hehe, good fellows.
Certainly that old mentality, "functionism", is still present today, but only in some circumstances. Still their culture was lightyears from ours, that's way we have to study to comprehend them. But you have raised an interesting point: are today's funies like yesterday's fundies? And I think my answer will be: no, back then they didn't have nuclear weapons (israel, wannabe islam), firearms and all that stuff. They would have cancelled each other, annihilated. Our fundies maybe have less mojo... No, really I think that morals follows more the society, the mass, than a sacred text (were the justification comes last).
If, as you say Adam, that things happened in a different order then what is written, then why actually trust anything in the book as it's written? You have proven to us that it is not a reliable text, as it takes all sorts of rationalizations from believers going outside of the text in the "well it says this, BUT..." tradition. It's not as if the writers were there, so why would the deity supposedly telling them the story do so in such an inept manner?
So you listen to the evidence-free rationalizations of religious partisans over the evidence that people see that counters their arguments?
Oh, and Eastre was originally a pagan holiday of fertility and nothing to do with some silly fictional snuff actor. It's only now about Jesus because the early church celebrated it then to try and sucker more pagans into Christianity. Have you ever wondered what all those eggs had to do with Jesus? Yeah, if you said nothing at all then you'd be right!
I especially love the "Bible being consistent with reality" part. Yeah, like how the sun can seem to stand still in the sky, which could only happen if the earth stopped spinning, or that one family could build a boat that could house two or more of every "kind" (whatever that means) of animal with enough resources to survive the duration of a global flood, or that the earth is a flat disc with edges... Consistent with reality? Sorry, but that statement is factually incorrect.
Once some religion(s) can offer some evidence for their incredible claims, I'll take them as more then organized, superstitious foolishness. Until then...
"This may shock you, but not everything in the bible is true." The only true statement ever to be uttered by Jean Chauvinism, sociopathic emotional terrorist.
"A Boss in Heaven is the best excuse for a boss on earth, therefore If God did exist, he would have to be abolished." Mikhail Bakunin
"The means in which you take,
dictate the ends in which you find yourself."
"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government! Supreme leadership derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!"
No Gods, No Masters!