Hardly impressive, magicians can do much more effective tricks.

I wonder if he'd repeat this 'miracle' in front of James Randi.

Indeed...and spoon bending is a better trick in my opinion.  Or be like David Copperfield and make the Statue of Liberty dissappear.

Except that what is on the video is no trick.

StMichael said, "... but I think it very probable as such."

You must have either spent to much time in seminary school and are unaware of how easy an illusion levitation is to perform or you have an emotional need to believe such things. In your case I suspect both cause you to believe this "miracle". Any magic store carries books and videos on how to do these tricks. Just a simple monofilament can levitate an object like the one in the above video. I suspect this is what was used as I notice that if wobbles around when first leviated which would be what one would expect with a monofilament.

Here are some video on how to levitate:

 Levitating an object with a monofilament

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbkQfWaNJgA

Chris Angel revealing how to levitate himself

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRMHmnr4b60 

David Copperfield levitation tricks revealed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGzIXcu4OZ8 

Of course, even every Catholic is free to be skeptical until the Holy See decides anything about it.

Needless to say, however, that nobody had an interest in rigging a miracle in this case. Further, it goes without saying that this would be sacrilege to manipulate the Sacred Host in this way.

Also, it does not seem to be fishing line at all. The motion of the host is rather odd in that it wobbles, but levitates straight up and without swerving, which is rather odd if it was being hoisted with a monofilament.

Oh, and to cite the article: "Poichè il filmato con queste immagini è abbastanza lungo e ricco di primi piani, si ha la possibilità di acquisire, con ragionevole certezza, che non si tratta assolutamente di illusione ottica o di inganno di prospettiva. Esperti del settore, dopo attento esame del filmato, hanno escluso nel modo assoluto una manipolazione tecnica delle immagini."
This basically says that the film association and some other folks reviewed the film before multiple experts in illusions and the like who all testified that such was not a fake.

Ungh... puh-lease!

How do you know? How could you tell wheter  magicians are just tricking you if they didn't explicitly say so?

David Copperfield could become a bishop instead of a proffesional magician, while still practicing magic as a hobby, and do the whole Statue of Liberty trick, but claim it was an actual miracle, and poor fools like you would yell 'Halleluyah'!

And try looking at it from a different perspecitve: is your god totally bored?

"Behold humans, I the creator of the world, the one that has made everything from the deepest depths of the oceans to the highest mountains, the creator of your sun and moon, all the stars and galaxies, the entire universe, shall make my power known to you: I shall make a paten levitate a quarter of an inch above a table!"

Come fucking on...

One more question: do you have any links to stories of this miracle in English? I actually want to send it to Randi.

I thought you were were at least a little rational ... until I saw this.

I am ashamed I gave any credit to your so called rationality to begin with. How are we supposed to consider both sides when someone such as you posts such silly videos.

Well, there is no obligation for Catholics to believe it. The position of the Church is always skepticism toward these things. However, it does not seem to have been disproven yet.

No one is disputing the authenticity of the film itself, but the film beeing authentic does in no way prohibit this bishop from doing the trick.

If I film a magician's performance the film will be authentic, but the cutting of the woman in half won't.

The point of that article was both that the film was undoctored and that experts in illusions on film attested that they could see no trick being performed.

So what if they couldn't?

No one can actually see a trick beeing performed when a magician does it, if they saw it, no one would be entertained.

People know it's a trick only because magicians, unlike this bishop, have enough decency to inform the public that what they are doing is, in fact, nothing more then a trick.

And could you please explain, what the hell is the Creator Of All Existance trying to show by hovering a plate thingy less then an inch above a table?

I think the point of this miracle, as with any miracle, is to provide evidence for people who do not believe that Revelation is correct. More specifically, to probably show the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. And it is not a thingy; it is a Host - a piece of bread which has been consecrated and become the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ, retaining only the appearance of bread.
Further, it is quite unlikely that the bishop has intentionally rigged this. First, because it is sacrilege. Second, because he has a good reputation which would be at stake. Third, because, as I said, there do not seem to be any evidence in the video that the Host is being supported by any mechanism.

Yours In Christ, Eternal Wisdom,
StMichael

Then why not do it in a less ambigous way?

A big flashing sign in the night sky:

"Yo bitches,

Revelation is correct, and more specifically, Christ is really present in the Eucharist.

 Cheers!

-God"

It would be much easier to understand, and much more believable then something that can be replicated by an amateur magician. 

No, it's a thingy.

You have yet to prove that any single aspect of your religion is true, so forgive me when I remain sceptical to your claim that this thingy is magically transformed into the body of someone who you have yet to prove ever existed. 

Pedophilia is not only a crime, but also a sin, and a pretty serious one as far as I know, but it doesn't stop some priests from doing it 

 If you film any (good) magician, you will not see any mechanism, or any evidence that would show it's a trick, unless he will let you.

First, I think miracles make quite clear the message in a much more dramatic way.
Second, I did not mean, though I admit it may sound like it, that you must accept my belief in the Real Presence. It does, however, have a proper name, which is a Host, which does not designate, in the term itself, any truth or falsity to my belief.
Third, the bishop in question has more to lose than a parish priest. So, any incentive against a parish priest is much more increased/multiplied with a famous Archbishop. It does not prove it with certainity, but it makes it quite unlikely.
Fourth, the people they consulted had experience with magicians on film. The Host had no sign of wires or any evidence that it would be a fake. Magicians do leave traces on film, such as wires or evidence that a portion of the trick was not visible, or that the sleight-of-hand is able to be dissected in stop-frames.

Also, of course, the bishop breaks and later consumes the Host at the end of Mass, so wires tied or fixed onto the Host are not a possibility.

Yours In Christ, Eternal Wisdom,
StMichael

If the thingy is some form of bread that might explain why it wobles. If it stick on the plate some how it that would have caused wobbleing.

I was born and raised in Italy, I have seen the holy sites, I have been blessed by the most holy of preists, (thanks to grand donations from my mother, I think the money would have been better spent if it was given to me), I have seen these supposed "miracles" first hand.  They are a dime a dozen all over Italy.  It's the way the church keeps it's sheep in a mindless trance.  Dazzle wazzle magic tricks bro.  People who are predisposed to believe in god through years of conditioning and social stress, will buy into these "miracles".   The irony is that these "miracles" only happen in those places where people want to see them.  Ironically you never see the Madonna appear in Mecca and you don't see Mohammed appearances in the Vatican.  I wonder why that is?  hmmm... one would think that a god would want to be seen by those who doubt him the most?  I just find it very convenient that the miracles only happen to those who want to see them.  Where was the miracle of saving the thousands that died during Hurricane katrina?  

Even if this was true, and I don't in a million years believe it to be true, but for the sake of argument, even if it was true, why would I ever wanna worship a god who would rather perform silly levitation tricks instead of giving is the true miracle of stopping countless wars in his name or stopping hunger and disease for the millions around the world.  Why doesn't the miracle manifest itself in ridding the world of malaria?  Yeah..these silly little catholic tricks are nothign more than more propaganda.   

and another thing, the reason why this is happening in France is simply political. France is becoming more and more secular, so the church is trying to gain it's foot hold back. 

It takes a bit more than a little magic trick to convince ratioanal people....that god exists.  And it's only mindless sheep who are dazzled by little plates hopping up from the table for a second or so.  I think some of the magicians here in the states do much more formidable tricks.  Penn and Teller...atheists, perform better tricks. 

Wonderful. That doesn't mean that they are thus false.

Of course, only if you start off with the assumption that they are both false and deceptive.

The miracles in Italy and in the rest of the world are easily ascertainable by any believer or non-believer. Those that are permanent, like that at Lanciano, are easily investigatable.

God has often done things like this. However, I don't know. You'd have to ask Him. He allows certain bad things to happen for the greater good, in the end.

I think also that the overwhelming number of these miracles is fairly compelling.

Yours In Christ, Eternal Wisdom,
StMichael

I think the most surprising thing in the video was that the priests performed the ceremony with no expression of surprise or amazement at what was happening. This tells me they rehersed and expected it.

Now come on. If the priests had rehearsed a dramatic event for national television to convince everyone that a eucharistic miracle had occurred, would it do well to pretend it wasn't happening? That is one good reason in my opinion that it is true. It was not terrifically dramatic and it was suppressed for years before it surfaced just recently.

If a real miracle was occuring right in front of them you think they act if it's no big deal? Oh sure, these miracles occur all the time. Ho hum.

Magic is not real. You are desperate because of liking certain things cant see how easly fooled you are.

If I claimed I had a $1,000,000 and and got 1,000 people to make the claim that I had $1,000,000 and doctored a check book and made a phony bank statement you'd be gullible enough to buy it.

I think the wise person would say, "Ok Brian, I hear you claim you have that money. I hear other people claim you have that money. Now Brian, prove it, go to your bank and withdraw it"

What if I kept making excuses as to why I couldnt withdraw it?

This lack of questioning you your part allows you to buy claims of levitation and virgin births. 

Levitation is an illusion and virgin births are fiction. You want to believe people so bady whenever they make a claim you like that your brain shuts off. 

StMichael, 

Took a look at the video.

It looks like there were a line on each side of the plate and they were pulled out of sync - hence the wobble.

The lines on the sides of the plate also solves the problem of the priest taking some of the host - he took it from the middle to avoid the lines.

What really concerns me is the "I'm skeptical until the Pope says it's true" view that you hold. It leaves you way too open to be sold anything. All someone has to do is claim to represent the Pope and claim that he recieved a statement about X from him. then it becomes dogma to you because after all, the Pope has no reason to lie when speaking ex cathedra - indeed, it is impossible for him to do so (you believe). 

The Holy See finds a miracle credible, but does not obligate anyone to believe in a specific miracle. The Holy See does not define these as dogma, nor does it make sense to do so (they are not articles of faith!). He does have the ability to define dogma infallibly, but this isn't an object of said infallibility.

However, as I said, any cables or lines are out of the question as the entire Host was broken and consumed.

I own the Brooklyn Bridge. Did you know that?

I am an authority of that claim because I am real and the Brooklyn Bridge is real too. I'll sell it to you since I own it.

True...but what I was saying is that I have first hand account of these "miracles" and let me tell you....the vendors are not far off with their statues of mary etc...right at the holy sites.  it's a big scam...all of it. 

It's not an assumption it's a rational realization that magic does not exist. 

Ha,  yes.. I knew this was coming. First of all...the vatican and churches allows no scientists to study these supposed miracles...under the sanctity of the church, secondly these miracles seem to be one of a kind occurances....would this priest repeat the miracle?  this is hocus pocus man.... designed exactly for people like you.  The non-skeptics.   

I've never heard of such things....and even if there is a "supposed" apparition..the ratio between the apparition in europe and south america vs. the apparitions in the middle east or india..is by far.....outnumbered....interesting fact. 

Well then let the scientists in.  Apparently only 1 scientist has investigated the "flesh" and perhaps it was flesh but it could have been from anyone....no?  I urge the church to give up this flesh and let it be studied along with the blood from St. Gennaro in Naples. Put your money where your mouth is, I say (not you, I mean the church who claims these things).

Oh believe me, I've asked and asked..got no response..kinda like a room full of crickets.  Greater good huh?  Innocent children dying of malaria every year is for the greater good?  Anancephalic babies being born is for the greater good?  Cancer, HIV, tsunamis, earthquakes, tornadoes, rape, murder, war, hunger, menstrual pain, misogyny, etcetera etcetera etcetera...all fo the greater good?  How exactly does a poor child in Ghana in some small village suffering from cyclic 48 hour bouts of 107 degree fevers, whose anemia has reached critical levels and who's cerebral capillaries are clogged by cerebral malaria, caused by a small parasite of the genus Plasmodium, come into play for the greater good?   What is exactly god's idea when he created malaria?

I just think you are disillusioned, my friend.  It's no fault of your own. I just think whether you'd be the same person if you were born in Afghanistan. 

And one more thing... I find it ironic how that "specific" mass was videotaped in such detail as the miracle was occuring.  I don't know how they do it in France, but Italy's masses are usually not televised or videotaped. Did they know the miracle was going to happen? Did they get a fax from god saying..oh today a plate will wobble on the altar? cause the camera seemed perfectly positioned and all the actors seem ready on cue....hmmm........... 

So the top wafer dries out a bit more and turns inside out? It didn't hover. The close up shows one curved up on top of one curved down.

-Triften 

Right, people do make money off of lots of stuff. I just find it curious they would make money off of god. hmmm........ 

Faith based fallacies.  Following your logic there is no reason why not to believe in zeus or or any of the other 3000+ Gods that have been invented by man kind.  Your assumptions of belief stem from faith, and faith is not rational.  It is lazy.  Faith cannot be tested, empirically speaking, therefore not worth wasting time on it. 

You make the assertions here so show me peer reviewed sceintific journal entries, proving miracles exist, show and tell....

I find it ironic that the priests were not even shaken with joy at the "miracle" instead they seemed to have expected it.  This is a hoax much like the lochness monster.

As I mentioned earlier, you make the claims, show and tell. 

Oh that's convenient isn't it.  If San Gennaro's blood is so divine, surely exposing it to air would not ruin it.  there is no way you can study blood within the confines of a sealed vial and confirm it's blood. It's so convenient.  No the miracel of Lanciano was studied once by Odoardo Linoli in the 80's and he concluded that the tissue is of human flesh. However, this does not prove that it is divine in nature, it does prove however that the church will go to great sick lenghts to keep miracles alive.  Also, I have not seen his work published in ANY peer reviewed sceintific journal. As I said show and tell.  For all Iknow he could have lied, it is Italy after all.

That's what I kept asking myself...who exactly am I talking to? It is an imaginary friend. 

Then god is not omnipotent. 

Then god is not omniscient. 

Then god is not benevolent. 

Is that so?  Explain that to the kid dying of cancer for no apparent reason whatsoever but to fulfill some imaginary person's sadistic desires. 

Really? and how exactly is that supposed to help, again the innocent child dying of malaria?  You talk much talk but give no answers, and you claim ignorance of God's ways. However, you insist that you have some kind of divine knowledge that god has a plan.. So what is it..do you or don't you?

Love? You see the love this god is creating here on earth...it's a love of hypocrisy, hatred, bigotry, greed and war. 

No, the camera was positioned straight on the plate...don't say it wasn't..caus you would be lying. Never have I seen a mass videotaped where they zoom so close to the altar almost cutting the preists head off.  that is your wishful thinking.  And anyway, as I said I've seen Penn and Teller do better tricks and they are atheists. 

St. M wrote

 "Non-invasive techniques tend to be preferred in those matters."

Gee, I wonder why? Could it be...obfuscation?

I'va also see my share of EWTN and I've never see any mass where they focused exclusively on the host during the celebration. When are you watching that you've seen this? 

Not in all miracles. Just in San Gennaro. They don't want to unseal the vial. Other shrines have given full clearance to investigate their miracles. I think Naples is afraid that if they open the vial that the miracle will stop. I can't claim to know a lot about it, and the Church itself has not verified that miracle, so I would be hestiant to bring it up.

However, going to ewtn.org, you can watch their daily Mass. You can see how they zoom in on the Host during the consecration and elevation.

Perhaps, not an argument against its validity, but it certainly supports the idea that people make money off of this, and in my opinion..if it's such a miracle/holy occurence, why would any right minded religious person feel the need to profit from it? I just find it curious and non-conducive to the validity and truthfulness of the event. Anyway...I guess this is a moot point.

I believe now you are putting words in my mouth. Name one thing I beleive that is not open ot empircal and falsifiable scientific testing. Veneration of saints from a body who considers itself divine enough to support the existence of god, yet humble enough to not know "god's plan" is not exactly the kind of empirical testing I'm talking about here. That's in a way, like defining the word by using the word in a sentence. It's circular logic. Plus you never really answered how then would it not be possible to believe in the the 3000+ other gods out there..... You never know how many of them you are pissing off right now and who's hell you're going to end up in. You take it on faith that your religion is the right one...well so do the followers of the other 3000+ religions out there.

oh wait do you mean this?

Complete spontaneous regression of cancer: four case reports, review of literature, and discussion of possible mechanisms involved.

By: Walter Y.M. Chang MD, FACS

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=DisplayFiltered&DB=pubmed

Where he describes remission of cancer and the Possible mechanisms involved in cancer regression.

hmm...let's see here.....let's see....

oh here we are: Spontaneous regression or remission (SR) of cancers has been defined as the disappearance of the malignancies without any treatment or with obviously inadequate treatment.

here is what it says as potential causes: The literature of SR of cancers was reviewed and various mechanisms possibly involved in the disappearance of the cancers were discussed. Although immune modulation has been stated to be the most likely process causing SR, other mechanisms, such as genetic therapy, withdrawal of carcinogens, infection, fever and vaccine roles, apoptosis, antibody, antiangiogenesis and maturation mechanisms, withdrawal of therapy, natural killer activity, endocrine, hormonal, and pregnancy factors, and prayers or psychoneuro-religious participation were also mentioned. Induction and inhibition of malignant protein expression and repair of gene damage may prove to be the more important processes in cancer regression.

This was stated in the abstract of this review journal article.

I will say this...this is not by far any conclusive evidence regarding SR. This does not prove by one bit that it was God who performed a miracle. This is taken by the faithfully blind who know nothing of immunology and cancer biology as faith. Why? Because it's easy to default to it. It's lazy. God did it end of story. The immune system is a complex system. Involving genetics and epigenetics, cell signaling and modulation etc... There are a million reasons why cancer patients can go into remission. Also here is another little story you might be interested in:

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/thuo-hypothesis.html

The author of this story, presents a more plausible, testeble idea. IOW: not lazy.

Faith based healing has been shown scientifically to not be true http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/health/2002901053_pray31.html

So do you have any other "evidence" or is God in all his glory only give you a short phrase in ONE scientific article about a miracle.

Cause it seems to me...if this is all you have to go by..then...the evidence is not on YOUR side.

ok, we've gone over this one as well.....circles.

They were looking right at it, especially the priest behind the one holding his hands out.

If you knew anything about spectrophotometry you would realize that you cannot use a circular glass sphere to analyze lightwaves, due to the fact that the glass sphere may in fact bend the light waves giving false results. also, the thickness of the liquid/solid of the supposed San Gennaro's blood would not allow spectrometry or spectrophotometry to work. You would have to take a sample, solubilize the erythrocytic proteins and run the sample through a spectrophotometer. The true explanation on why they don't want the vial opened, is simple: their hoax would be discovered.

How do you know they don't go to the freshly delivered corpses a the cemetary and take samples, or pay the morgue to get fresh samples as the one they have decays? Can you prove without a shadow of a doubt that they are not doing that? Also, can you prove that the tissue is NOT fixed? You can't, and I'll tell you why, there has only been one study done on this..over 20 years ago.

Sorry, I'm not convinced and neither is anyone who has a rational mind.

Well what good is it if it's not accessible to the public? THat's the beauty of scientific literature. also, please post his report from a non-biased source.

you see no reason period.

If god knew it would happen, but did not intend it..then he cannot by logic be omniscient or omnipotent and if he knew it was going to happen and let it happen anyway, then he can, by logic not be benevolent. How can a benevolent god use evil? If we have free choice, then god is not omniscient, because if he knows we are going to do evil, then our path is set. And if god creates everything and lets us do evil, then he is not benevolent. Get the twisted logic here? And what IS this greater good you talk about?

And how is this any relevant to human suffering? What he suffered so we must all suffer? including innocent children? And you tell me this is the works of a benevolent god?

So you're only semi divine in nature. You claim to have "knowledge" based on revelation, yet you don't know what that knowledge consists of...hmm....oooookkkk..

How bout that christ died is a guilt driven propaganda (now bein exploited by hollywood) to convince the masses using human emotion of a lie that never really existed.

I agree... I research malaria. I'm doing something..what about you?

Well that's easy for you to say isn't it? I find this to be a lazy cop-out.

But...god is the creator, therefore created sin and evil...again...turning to the whole benevolence, omniscience and omnipotency argument. If god did not create these things, then he is not omnipotent.

I don't see suffering ending on earth...so I don't quite think there has been any death knells that were dealth.

I've been to plenty of masses. But...even if you are right, it doesn't prove the miracle true.

If there were no external signs of immune activity, if the white blood count was normal, if no natural mechanism seemed to be at play in this case, if the healing occured instantly with prayer to Fr. Damien, it seems credible to associate the healing directly with the prayer to Fr. Molokai.

You forget that the good doctor himself attributes this case to God alone, while the others he attributes to other causes. And I think he knows a bit of biology.

Yours In Christ, Eternal Wisdom,
StMichael

Then why are people like you (already believed in the first place) the only ones convinced of its miraculous nature, while the rest of us are rolling are eyes?  If god is trying to convince us skeptics, you w think he'd catch on by now that he needs to try a little harder.  

Your refusal to acknowledge it is not my or God's fault. He has provided clear evidence to confirm His Revelation in Christ. The least you can do is not claim that my faith is irrational. It has clear reasons, but you do not accept them. Mind you, I could not bring up the MANY miracles both approved and unapproved which have occurred. Further, the prophecies, growth, and stability of the Church likewise shows its divine character. They are clear reasons why we can believe with a reasonable submission of intellect and will to what the Church teaches.

My refusal to acknowledge it is god's fault, Michael. As you said the purpose of these "miracles" is to win skeptics like me over, not to give believers like you the tingles. If these things are to be more credible to me than "2 + 2 = 4" (as they are for you, by your own admission), god needs to stop being so amateur about it. Tell mr. omnipotence to take it up a notch. The least I can do is to claim that your faith is irrational, rather than question your basic intelligence (which I don't). Wouldn't you think it irrational if you saw a video of a falafel floating in the air at an Eid celebration in Riyadh, which an imam was touting as evidence of Allah's greatness? But a holy wafer doing a backflip in France? Yes, very rational.

"Submission of intellect" is very revealing. You have an intellect, Michael. Use it - don't bend it into submission.

It is not to give me the tingles. Do you think I post it for my health? I am posting these miracles because they are evidence to support my claims. I have not seen anyone else claim so widespread miracles and evidence of this sort to support its claims. Protestants have generally eschewed this, and Muslims do not have it. The Jews don't have it, nor do Hindus, or many other major group. Catholicism is the only one that continues and has consistently pointed to miraculous things as evidence of its divine charism.
Further, the problem is on your end. There are a good deal of miracles that exist and have existed. It's your problem that you refuse to accept the evidence sitting before you. What would you want God to do? He has provided clear evidence here and elsewhere that it is He who really is revealing these things. The levitation of the Host is merely a little example of this, indicating belief in the Eucharist.
And, submission of intellect to faith is the only way the intellect can truly understand things beyond it. Open mindedness is good, but it exists with the goal of putting something in your head, not letting everything fall out.

Yours In Christ, Eternal Wisdom,
StMichael

It wasn't levitating. The wafer curved the other way. The closeup shows this.

-Triften 

With this video in mind, I must resign my atheism.

This man truly is the messiah. I have seen it on celluloid, visible proof that HE is real!!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG6IkL-yjCs

You can clearly see the bishop's vestments under the host. It is not upheld by anything. You also ought to look at the other videos that are on the website, which has the fuller video that shows more than the one I posted.

Yours In Christ, Eternal Wisdom,
StMichael

I'm not saying that it's being suspended from above, mind you. But if it were, you could still see the bishop's robes under the host.

Your statement adds nothing. 

It cannot be suspended by any strings or threads. It was completely consumed at the Mass! No threads removed, nothing. Further, as I said, nobody who evaluated the film who has expertise in these areas could find any mechanism to cause this action.

Expertise in what? catholic dogma, or sleight of hand?

I really hope, for the sake of your god's dignity, that this isn't a divine miracle. It would appear he/she has way too much time on his hands. I'm picturing some old guy with mild dementia clapping his hands and saying gleefuly, "Oh looky-look! I made a piece of bread float! Wheeeee!"

Even that statement doesn't add anything as the host could simply be broken around the string and consumed.

Also, people with "expertise" who want to believe are sometimes the easiest to fool.

Again, I'm not saying that that's what happened. I just like finding other, more conventional possibilities instead of "God did it"

I never claimed it to be infallible proof. It is good proof and reasonable evidence for the truth of that doctrine, however.
And, no, the folks who authenticated it were not specialists in "dogma" but in sleight of hand and illusions on film.

The wafer merely turns concave. You can see the vestsments to the left and right of the center. Look at the close up. It is clearly curved.

Also, look at their movements:the frame rate has been altered. This would make the small bounce that occured when the wafer curved appear longer than it actually was.

-Triften 

 Never said you did. You're going to wait until you receive word from the Vatican that they think it's infallible. Then you'll be chanting it as well.

Every time I hear someone talk about "experts" in such matters I am reminded of all the scientists and other experts who fell for Uri Geller hook, line and sinker. It also reminds me of Bill Frist's diagnosis of Terri Schiavo from looking at a videotape.   

Perhaps, but if you look at religion as a whole..it's makin' a whole lotta money for a whole lotta people...I mean you know..look at the vatican, their own tv station, the vast resources allocated etc..etc..etc... the catholic pastor at my mother's church: St. Louis, used to drive a corvette..hmmm...yeah..if righteousness in religion is guaged by the lack of money, then my friend you're in the wrong religion. Then we have the evangelicals and  your Pat Robertsons, your Jerry Falwells yeah religion is big money..BIG MONEY.

You did not just ask why only empirically verified truth is true.  If we followed your school of thought, we would be nowhere as far as medicine or technology.  Would you be willing to take some chemo-therapeutic chemical for cancer, that has not been empirically tested?   Would you buy a 3000 dollar HD tv if it's never been tested to see if it works?  Would you buy a used car without testing it to see if it works?  I mean if you would take all this on "faith" then you should stop being a hypocrite in life and take EVERYTHING ON FAITH.    Also, the moon is not made of cheese, because 1, we've empirically verified it.  Do you forget the trip to the moon?  And 2, even IF we would not have gone to the moon, the default position that it would be made of cheese is wrong.  Just like the default position that a god exists is wrong.  And only empirically testing that assertion would I believe it to be true.  If you make a claim that the moon is made of chees, my friend you better prove it, and as such, if you claim there is a god, then my friend, you better prove it.

What I mean here is that you believe someone who claims divine knowledge by then justifying your belief by that very same body.  You take the bible and what the vatican says as truth, yet when questioned about those beliefs, you use the bible and the vatican as proof. That's not independent verification, that's circular.    Also, you have so much faith in God's plan wihtout even knowing what God's plan is...how can anyone in their right mind, believe that?  If you were to buy a car on the assurance of the salesman, without really knowing any background info on the car OR the salesman, would you buy the used car?  If you're a man of faith, you would, I supposed, but that's just irrational.

Faith is not reasonable because faith is knowledge without proof. As I said, if you feel it to be reasonable, then I suggest you stop taking medicines when sick, and rely solely on prayer.  You believe it so much, I'll make you a wager....for the rest of your life, stop going to a doctor, stop taking medicine no matter how serious the illness. Rely on prayer alone, if you are so convicted in your faith, then you should have no problem relying on prayer alone to fix your ailments. If you get a headache, don't take that secular medicine called tylenol, if you get cancer, don't take that evil secular drug called chemo.   Would you be willing to take this wager on faith? 

Again this is faith.  You are positive of the existence of god without proof.  And again if your faith is so strong see the wager above.  That is not natural reason, that is faith based boloney. You seem to be unable to give me fact based evidence only faith based evidence...and again, if your faith is that strong...you should then survive on prayer alone.

Here we go again..circular reasoning...we know we know we know..yet you have provided no proof of such knowledge. 

What??????  again assertions with no proof.  We know We know We know...  why do you know? oh I know because I know, so that's settled.  Um..not quite. 

no, there is no credibility because it's all unsubstantiated. And I'll make you another wager.  I'll bet you that a muslim will have the same reasoning for his belief and his would be just as strong as yours...now why would you not believe him?  And the same reason why you would discredit his religion, is the same reason why I discredit both of them.  Get the drift here?  Both make assertions with no proof.  I mean a muslim will tell you he has positive knowledge that Allah is God almighty with muhammed being his prophet who rose to heaven on a horse.  You would then say, well that's silly why do you believe that? And the muslim would reply, it's in the Qu'ran, the oldest text there is and it's true.  Why wouldn't, you then believe him?   

Then why is it mentioned as the probable cause in the abstract, then if that's the case, the whole article is crap. 

No, because it has not been proven that it was prayer that did the healing.  Plus, another study has shown that prayer does not work. And..this is only ONE semi-documented case... which is not credible anyway. Also, it is the default position of the theist, to default to god doing it whenever they cannot explain something.  here's a quote:   "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science."-- Charles Darwin 

Then the good doctor is not being honest with himself or the study he has conducted, and I"m still having a hard time finding the actual article..hmm...could it be that at a university setting, they decided to trash it based on the fact that it's not scientific?  I'm wondering why this would have even gone through peer review. 

I've seen secular magicians pull better tricks...man.... 

Not scientifically viable.  The only true test is to open it and see. What are they afraid of anyway? It's divine in nature no human could possibly undermine the validity of Gods' divine intention. right? 

I'll gladly wait for that..by the way so you know.....I've been to that exact church and have seen it first hand.  They keep the vial so far away from the people, it's really hard to discern what's in that thing.  It's cloudy and murky..and really you can't really tell whether it's solid or liquid.  Most people take the priests' word for it.  On..well...faith. 

A human heart is a human heart....no matter who's it is..it all looks alike. 

I bet you I can prove without the shadow of a doubt that the moon is not made of green cheese.  here you go: http://www.neiu.edu/~jmhemzac/mooncomp.htm

And you compare oranges to apples.  Plus, the moon studies are on going my friend....we have the technology to study the moon and other planets without actually having to have to go there.  So your point, although, well taken, is moot. 

I will look forward to these studies. 

 You see reason under a filter of faith.  This will allow you to "reasonably" conclude many things that are unreasonable.  But yet, you deny the very "reasonable" explanations for the existence of Allah as the true god or Zeus, or any of the other 3000+ gods out there.

And this report was written by, an unbiased, independent inquiry?

and you know god limits his power by his own choice, because you have first hand knowledge of this?  Are you now saying you know god's will?  but I thought you said you didn't know god's will. Well what is it here do you or don't you?  I mean certainly, it seems as if on the one hand you claim ignorance of god's will, but now you're telling me you know for a fact god limits his powers by his own will?  you know god's will?

So god uses evil for good.  That's an interesting twist on God's will.. You now apparently have become Gods' spokesman...please continue..this is getting very interesting. 

So now you're saying god does not know when we will be committing evil, so then that does kind of prove that he is not omniscient right?  You said it now..... there is no NEED for him to know...therefore he doesn't? But if he doesn't then by definition he cannot be omniscient. 

Right....and again..the best being...... war, hatred, bigotry, environmental rape, misogyny, suffering...etc..etc..etc...

Why would christ need to conquer suffering? he created it. 

And you have this partial knowledge..through......oh yeah wait, the vatican and the bible..forgot... circles (gettin' dizzy). 

Really? Because it seems to me that Mia Colpa seems to be the way of the catholic church. 

Charity is good in the name of helping people and not proselytizing.  I agree.  But I have to disagree with you that becoming a priest will help out...but...anyway.... 

 I think religion is a cop-out to thinking.

So then evil is a force of it's own volition? Did god create gravity?  what about van der waals forces?  

Ah..the second coming.  The every so awaited joyous moment when the righteous fly to the sky...Israel is burned to the ground..and the rest of us are stuck here on earth as hell engulfs us all..... you mean that second coming? 

 No, I'm not accusing anything, I just think this was set up as these "miracles" usually are.  That's all.

In Rationality,

Left of Larry 

Different truths have different modes of verification. A logical proof or mathematical proof cannot be verified with a microscope any more than what the temperature at the core of the earth is verified with a chicken baster. You are misapplying modes of verification. Further, you DO take many things on faith. You do take on faith the fact that people have verified that this TV has been tested and verified. It might be possible to do it, but you see no need to personally verify every claim.

Why are thse positions wrong? The moon could be made of cheese. I also don't see why you assume God's non-existence can never be questioned.

I am not using the Pope to prove the Pope's authority. I am using a verifiable miracle to prove the truth of the Catholic faith. Clearly different areas.

And it has not been proven that prayer did not accomplish the healing. Likewise, medical science did not bring about the healing. Nor, does it seem, did the immune system. I never claimed miracles were absolutely certain, but they establish these truths with a reasonable degree of certainty.

There are many others. That just happens to be one I know is accessible. Every miracle performed for the canonization of saints is recorded and kept on record, with documentation.

Evil is a privation, a defect, a lack of being. It doesn't exist in its own right.

Yours In Christ, Eternal Wisdom,
StMichael