So...religion is harmless, huh?
Why don't we ask this young lady who was terrorized by the "loving Christians" at a crisis pregnancy center--placed inconspicuously right next door to a Planned Parenthood, which is where this woman had an appointment when she mistakenly entered the wrong place. I realize this story is a little bit old, but I just saw it today and wanted to alert others to the dangers of these "crisis pregnancy centers" and the fanatical beliefs that will be forced upon an unsuspecting woman who ventures through their doors looking for help.
I know because it actually happened to me. I got pregnant one month after getting married. I was 20, and my husband was leaving for Japan in three days. I was going a month later to stay for three years. I was petrified to have my first child in a foreign country with no family or friends. I went to one of the "crisis pregnancy centers" expecting sound advice and just somebody to talk to, but instead what I got was guilt and lies. It wasn't until years later that I knew that what they had told me about fetal develoment was a lie. My baby did not have a heartbeat the day I found out I was pregnant. He did not look like a miniature baby. I really felt that I had been conned and taken advantage of.
Don't get me wrong--I don't think I would have had an abortion anyway. I certainly don't regret my decision now, but I was petrified then. Not to mention that my then-husband was not happy. And that's an understatement. Anyway, here's the story. People need to know about these liars operating under false pretenses at the most sensitive moment of a woman's life.
http://www.alternet.org/rights/35545/?page=entire
Exposing Anti-Choice Abortion Clinics
Misleading 'crisis pregnancy centers' are appearing across America, aiming to limit or even prevent women from exploring all of their legal health care options.
According to a recent Planned Parenthood email, a 17-year-old girl mistakenly walked into a crisis pregnancy center thinking it was Planned Parenthood, which was next door. "The group took down the girl's confidential personal information and told her to come back for her appointment, which they said would be in their 'other office' (the real Planned Parenthood office nearby)."
When she showed up for her nonexistent appointment, she was met by the police, who had been erroneously tipped that a minor was being forced to abort. The crisis pregnancy center staff followed up this harassment by staking out the girl's house, phoning her father at work, and even talking to her classmates about her pregnancy, urging them to harass her.
I contacted Jennifer Jorczak of Planned Parenthood of Indiana to verify this story, and while she was unable to provide details out of respect for the patient's privacy, she confirmed that everything in the initial action alert email was true.
This humiliating and frustrating experience seems, by all accounts, to await more American women in the near future. And the best part? It's funded by your tax dollars.
Even here in the liberal city of Austin, Texas, the signs are everywhere: "Pregnant? Need help?"
If you're facing an unwanted pregnancy, one of the possible solutions would be getting un-pregnant -- still a legal, if sometimes difficult-to-find, option in America. But the "crisis pregnancy centers" these signs advertise seek to limit and, in some cases, prevent women from exploring their legal options for health care.
Dishonest as these types of crisis pregnancy centers are, it's hard to argue against their right to exist, especially since most of their clients enter their doors willingly. However, the aforementioned incident reported by Planned Parenthood of Indiana indicates that some groups are not above using more aggressive methods to stop women from aborting pregnancies.
These tactics are even more troubling in light of the growing legislative support to direct taxpayer money towards crisis pregnancy centers and away from places that provide actual reproductive services to low-income women. Texas, as usual, stands at the forefront of conservative innovation in the art of draining public funding while reducing services. In the latest round of cuts, $25 million was sliced from the state budget for family planning services and $5 million of that money was set aside in a rider from Republican Sen. Tommy Williams to fund crisis pregnancy centers.
Peggy Romberg of the Women's Health and Family Planning Association of Texas estimates that 17,000 low-income women will lose access to affordable family planning as a result of the cuts, adding to the 75 percent of low-income Texas women who are eligible for state-funded family planning services but who lack actual access. And that's just in Texas. According to Planned Parenthood crisis pregnancy centers across the nation "have received $60 million of government grants."
Only two organizations applied for the $5 million in available funding for Texas's crisis pregnancy centers, and the one that received it, the Texas Pregnancy Care Network, appears to have been formed just to acquire this money. The TPCN is associated with a group called Real Alternatives, an anti-choice organization that has put so little effort into their "educational" materials that the site goes so far as to have sections called "Telling Your Boyfriend" and "Telling Your Parents," seemingly ignorant of the fact that most abortions are performed on adult women, many of whom are married.
Anti-choice activists openly regard family planning clinics like Planned Parenthood as primarily feminist organizations that just so happen to provide health care. Sarah Wheat of NARAL Pro-Choice Texas, who spent a considerable amount of time researching crisis pregnancy centers and has compiled a full report on them, explained that the first crisis pregnancy center was opened in 1967 by Robert Pearson as "the service arm of the anti-choice movement." Crisis pregnancy centers have a long history of providing the absolute minimum of services required to maintain the illusion that they provide care while they further their actual goal of trying to persuade women out of abortion -- sometimes using deceptive methods.
Peggy Romberg recollected that when she worked for Planned Parenthood in the '80s, crisis pregnancy centers would actually provide shelter to pregnant women right up until the eligible date for legal abortion had passed. They would then turn the women out, and it was Romberg's agency that was tasked with explaining to these desperate women that it was too late.
These hardline tactics were softened after a number of states began cracking down. Texas's own attorney general sued to prevent crisis pregnancy centers from advertising themselves as abortion providers in 1985. As a result the centers evolved to put on a better show of caring about women's health by advertising themselves as places to obtain full medical information.
But the kinder, gentler crisis pregnancy centers might be even more problematic than those engaging in more open harassment, as in the Indiana incident. The gentler face of the centers makes their health care pretenses slightly more plausible, even if their function is primarily political. Sarah Wheat said she and her staff regularly make phone calls to crisis pregnancy centers to learn more about the services offered there and, as a general rule, these pseudo-clinics have few or no paid employees, no medical personnel on staff and no real facilities to provide any medical care. Generally speaking, the medical treatment provided by the largely volunteer staff is nothing more than handing clients a pregnancy test that could be purchased over the counter for $10.
A friend warned me to be careful when contacting crisis pregnancy centers, as they are known to give callers the runaround, refusing to give information over the phone and asking you to come in for an appointment. Curious, I called Austin Life Care, a prominent local crisis pregnancy center and grilled the unlucky receptionist about the services offered. She said they offered pregnancy tests and counseling. When I asked about the credentials of the counselors, she replied, "Well, we have all different levels of education and some of them are really academic."
I followed up by asking what kind of medical staff they had on hand and she replied, "Well, we have sonographers."
When I asked her what a sonographer was, she was curt: "It's someone who can do your sonogram."
Actually performing a sonogram on a client probably adds to the illusion that crisis pregnancy centers are providing care. In fact, this allure explains why there's a bill pending in Congress to grant crisis pregnancy centers ultrasound machines, despite the fact that having a sonogram performed by an unsupervised technician could be dangerous. Dr. Diana Kroi, the ob-gyn who authored "Take Control of Your Period," explained that ultrasounds need a trained physician to look for problems like ectopic pregnancies and other dangerous indications that a woman's health is imperiled.
If a woman who's had an ultrasound mistakenly thinks she's had actual prenatal care, she may not go elsewhere for real care. Anti-choicers are banking on the ultrasound's appeal as a pre-born snapshot machine, though it's an actual diagnostic tool, or as the Mayo Clinic puts it, "[Ultrasound] isn't meant primarily to provide parental thrills or souvenir snapshots," and it's irresponsible to treat it as if it were. This is especially irresponsible in a setting where clients are being told that Planned Parenthood and other affordable clinics are nothing but abortion mills who want to hurt the woman and the expected baby.
So it's possible that these centers are not only detrimental to those women seeking abortions, they could be inadvertently stopping women from obtaining proper prenatal care. And from what I could gather on the website, most of the "counseling" available is for the only syndrome that crisis pregnancy centers show any interest in treating; one they call "post-abortion stress syndrome." The problem with this syndrome is anti-choice activists made it up. Unlike, say, post-natal depression, neither the American Psychiatric Association nor the American Psychological Association recognizes "post-abortion stress syndrome." So add proper mental health services to the list of services not rendered.
Because they have so little overhead, crisis pregnancy centers are proliferating while clinics offering actual medical care lag behind. NARAL Pro-Choice Texas noted that as of December 2005 that there were only 43 abortion providers in Texas compared to 183 crisis pregnancy centers -- which is unsurprising considering the cost of real medical care versus a stick to pee on and a video to watch. There's no indication as of yet that the $5 million grant to Texas Pregnancy Care Network will result in anything resembling professional medical care offered to the low-income women who need it, most of whom are punted by crisis pregnancy centers onto Medicaid, escalating the cost to the American taxpayer.
The truth is that Texas taxpayers are being asked to pony up $5 million to an organization that provides no services apart from furthering an outsider political agenda. Even the much ballyhooed "education" about alternatives to abortion isn't worth a dime of taxpayer money, even from those who would prefer fewer women to have abortions. After all, Planned Parenthood was already in the business of educating women about their options and the education offered is far more complete.
Peggy Romberg ended with a story about a young woman she'd worked with a few years back who'd been fortunate enough to get help from a college friend whose parents were friends of hers. The young woman had recently broken up with her boyfriend only to discover she was pregnant. When she contacted him for help, he instructed her to meet him at a nearby crisis pregnancy center. The ex-boyfriend had gone to a football game instead, forcing the young woman to endure the berating of the staff alone. She then went back to her dorm and despaired, running into another friend who was able to help her obtain the abortion. Without that stroke of luck, Romberg noted, there's no telling what a young woman who so far had met with nothing but abandonment, lies and berating would have done to escape her situation.
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Taking advantage of people
Taking advantage of people when they are at their lowest and most vulnerable: A religious tradition. Dispicable really. Using aggressive tactis such as this don't even give the person the chance to make the decision not to have an abortion. Preventing the person from getting the information they need to make an educated decision is just so common among religious interests. I find it horrible to read stories like this that above all else promote the denial of information that people need in place of a strongly forced opinion.
Abortion is frequently used
Abortion is frequently used as a cover to proselytize in public. I say this from personal experience on my campus but I'm sure many others including LeftofLarry (hi!) could share some stories about this.
Women should also be aware that religiously motivated individuals offering "free pregnancy testing" will report a false positive in an effort to manipulate a woman into ceasing her use of birth control. I believe this happened to me once however with classes starting this week I don't have time to type up my story at the moment.
This is possibly the worst
This is possibly the worst thing that Christians do to society. It just shows how much harm a little disinformation can do. In many cases, we're talking about a woman's life and the wellbeing of the family she might start. Thanks to these religious political activists, there are more babies than necessary being born into shitty conditions. There ought to be laws against this.
The great tragedy of Science - the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis by an ugly fact.
- Thomas H. Huxley
When I do good, I feel good; when I do bad, I feel bad, and that is my religion.
- Abraham Lincoln
shelley wrote: Women should
What the fuck?!
Fuck those fucking fucktards in their fucking fuckholes! Oh my fucking god! That is probably the worst thing I've ever heard, and I've heard some fucking awful things. It's not as if having a child isn't the most life changing thing that most people experience. The simple fact is, there are a lot of women who are fucking men they don't want to have children with, and fuck those fucking christian twatballs for presuming to trick them into getting pregnant, especially when there are lots of people who aren't even sure they fucking want kids!
I'm probably the most chill person you know, and I'm such a fucking physical pacifist that you could probably call me a wuss and get away with it, but I want to hurt those jit bags. I mean, I really want to hurt them. I want to stab them in the ovaries. Ok. I wouldn't really do it because I'm a wuss. But bloody fucking hell!
God fucking damn, that fucking pisses me off.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
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I have a few minutes before
I have a few minutes before I head out so I'll post my story.
My partner and I had a single broken condom incident.
Week 1: The first day I was late I headed over to my OB/GYN (at a Catholic hospital) and told them the whole story. They drew my blood that Wednesday. My Infectious Disease (ID) doctor (unrelated MRSA infection) drew my labs as usual on Friday and added a pregnancy test to the list. The ID's results usually take about a week because his lab fedex's out of state.
Week 2: Monday, the OB's office called and told me that I was definatly pregnant but there was a problem with some blood levels and I needed to come back the next week. I made the appointment and my parner and I stopped using protection. Thursday my ID doctor called and told me his pregnancy test was negative. Well, too late now.
Months later I got a copy of my medical records after hearing from many sources that this was common practice at some Catholic medical centers and because they continued to treat my pregnancy with their faith-based medicine (but that's a story for another post). Anyway, that initial test had my Beta levels below 10. ie... it was negative. I suppose technically I could have been pregnant but it's pretty suspicious.
From what I hear it happens quite often. I still have the records if anyone decides to sue...
Couldn't a campaign of
Couldn't a campaign of newspaper articles and ads warning and educating women take a big bite out of this deceptive practice? There must be a low cost, low tech education option that could be employed to counteract this unconscionable abuse.
Too bad stupidity isn't poisonous.
It would be nice if
It would be nice if Nightline or 60 Minutes would do an expose on it.
I don't know of too many low cost ways of doing something like this nationally. Any suggestions are welcome.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Pretty low
Hambydammit said, "I'm probably the most chill person you know, and I'm such a fucking physical pacifist that you could probably call me a wuss and get away with it, but I want to hurt those jit bags. I mean, I really want to hurt them. I want to stab them in the ovaries. Ok. I wouldn't really do it because I'm a wuss. But bloody fucking hell!"
I am at your service.
Considering the political environment in this country under the "Emperor's New Clothes" regime, these tactics don't really surprise me. Disgust me, yes, but seeing how playing on the fears of the public at large has enabled the systematic erosion of our rights by the people entrusted to their protection, it doesn't surprise me at all.
Since misinformation and fearmongering work so well in the hands of power-drunk frat-rats, it seems only natural that the lazy fuckwits of religion would use these same methods to cram their Neo-Nazi agenda up everyone else's ass.
Well she warned you...
Yeah, it IS old. It's the same stupid story that pro-aborts have been regurgitating for 20 years, and in all likelihood it's not true.
This is the VERY FIRST TIME I have EVER seen someone tell such a story that was ACTUALLY willing to put their NAME on it. Ever. That's out of at LEAST 30.
Yet, my OTHER consistent beef with these stories is NOT addressed, and that is that they NEVER name the supposed clinics perpetrating these actions. If you ACTUALLY had this experience, wouldn't you want to SHOUT the name of that clinic from the freakin ROOFTOPS and make DAMN sure nobody went to THAT PARTICULAR place? Not this woman, apparently...
No, I'm not just another blind sheep that refuses to believe what's right in front of them. No, kids, I'm an actual volunteer with Central Indiana Crisis Pregnancy Center. I KNOW what goes on, I KNOW what training the counselors get, I KNOW what they say and what they do. They ASK before discussing abortion, they ASK before discussing religion, they are NOT out to force ANYTHING on ANYONE.
These reports make it seem like CPCs are thriving based on ignorance... that women are FOOLED into coming in. Nothing could be further from the truth. Among my duties is data entry.
It may surprise you to learn that the average CPC client is married and approx 30. It may ALSO surprise you to learn that the MAJORITY of clients report "Word of mouth" as their referral method.
Let me stop here and make sure you understand this-
I am NOT just saying that "Word of mouth" is the most common means by which a woman finds herself in our door. No, no, it outnumbers EVERY OTHER MEANS OF ADVERTISING COMBINED.
Could that POSSIBLY be the case if the situations in these stories were true? If they had been going on for 20 years like PP would like us to believe? If scare tactics and lies were the way we did things? HELL NO! Clients would be telling thier friends "DON'T go to CPC" if that were the case.
But they aren't.
They aren't because we are staffed by people who care. People who have been through it. People who don't make a dime whether you keep your child or not. Can PP or any other abortion clinic say that?
Our counselors go through a full month of unpaid training (for which they pay for their own study materials). Every client is asked to evaluate how their counselor did, how they made her feel, how helpful she was, etc.. Most of the time, they get glowing reports "She really made me feel like she cared", "It felt good to know she'd been through an unplanned pregnancy, too", etc..
Sometimes they don't. Sometimes, we have to let people go. Of course, ANY kind of power attracts corruption, whether we're talking about teachers, cops, politicians.. or counselors. It does happen. Yet we deal with it when it does. It's NOT the norm, and it's NOT ALLOWED to happen, to continue happen. It's not what they are trained to do.
We are trained to help, in any possible way. Often that means moral support. Often it means referrals, sometimes to shelters. Sometimes it means coordinating escapes from abusive boyfriends or parents. Often it involves referrals to help her get the things she will need to HAVE that baby, from free and low cost diapers, teething rings and gels, baby powder, formula, clothes, beds, blankets, strollers, carseats... CPC does everything they possibly can do, NOT just to see our clients HAVE a baby (if they're pregnant), but to see her SUCCEED...
And yet all the liberals can see is the politics of the thing.
If you ask me, getting between a person in need and a person trying to help them... because of POLITICS?!... is just plain bigoted. There's no excuse for it.
Quote: Yeah, it IS old.
You friggin' idiot.
At any point did you stop to ask WHY this person would want their identity and the location kept quiet?
Did it ever occur to you that a small town say Lebanon or Frankfort would be able to narrow down who the story was about and persecute them even more?
Apparently, that class didn't help in your understanding about the feelings of women in that situation.
Oh fucking really? Answer me this. Why is the same woman that gave the load of misinformation to my cousins still in her same position NOW even after multiple complaints to your supervisors?
Why were three young catholic girls told to go to confession and talk to the priest at St. Mary's before doing anything else?
Oh. And for what it's worth even though you probably won't understand anyway...
It's about PEOPLE, not politics.
The very fact that you stated that the majority of your referrals are by 'word of mouth' gives credence to the argument that you preach rather than inform.
You really should count yourself as lucky(or blessed) that there isn't such a thing as a pro-choice version of Eric Rudolph.
BTW, if you want names then go fuck yourself and pray to your god for their revelation.
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darth_josh
Oh, but wait! I thought this was a pattern of behavior, not an isolated incident? That's what these stories are designed to lead the reader to believe! If we take this bovine feces as truth, then there's no WAY that would narrow it down! That's just how CPCs DO things, if you believe this nonsense. So it could be ANYbody. Yes, I can understand why the PERSON wouldn't want to be named. Why they NEVER name the clinic, no, I don't get that at all.
I can't speak for the Catholics. CICPC is not a Catholic organization. In fact, I'm not aware of any similar Catholic organization operating as a "Crisis Pregnancy Center." The TERM "CPC" is most commonly used by clinics under the CareNet umbrella, just like CICPC is. All I can tell you is this shit doesn't fly at a CareNet location. We operate thousands of CPCs across the country, in every State, and this doesn't go on there. Yet INEVITABLY WITHOUT A SINGLE EXCEPTION, every one of these bogus stories not ONLY declines to name the clinic allegedly doing these nasty things, BUT BECAUSE CareNet IS the biggest prolife outreach in the country, they decide to smear OUR good name, just because we're there. Just because they don't want these women getting FREE HELP, if it means talking to prolifers.
I say again, it's bullshit; it works AGAINST the women, not for them, it insults their intelligence, by assuming they need to be protected from being pressured into a choice they don't want by a total stranger, it keeps them away from people who YES have an absolute idea of right and wrong BUT are there primarily to help people in need REGARDLESS of the choices they make, and without asking for a fucking penny.
It is bigoted, but it's worse than a standard bigotry that only poisons the mind of those who can't release their hatred. It keeps people in need from people who want to help them. For shame.
WHAT?! How do you figure that? People are satisfied with their experience at CPC enough that they come back if they need our services again, and in the meantime they refer any friends that may need help, too...
And this is proof of indoctrination? I've already told you, we obtain PERMISSION before discussing religion. If a client doesn't want to talk about religion, that is their right and we respect. Again, Catholic groups may be different, I can't say.
But at CPC (That is, the REAL CPC, a CareNet CPC), the only people getting preached at are those who have expressly given their consent to talk about the Bible.
Why? We don't fear death. We know that we are blessed when we suffer for righteousness' sake.
Besides, I guarantee that if we take every abortionist killed, and compare it to the number of living humans just those PARTICULAR abortionists killed... I'm sure it would nowhere NEAR balanced. No, I don't condone killing a killer. I'm prolife 100%, anti death penalty, anti war, and so on... But I sure don't shed any tears for them. Those who live by the sword eventually do fall to the blade.
mobius_thought wrote: Why
For your perusal. I am still reading it. It seems that millions of dollars really are going into a wasteful program.
http://oversight.house.gov/documents/20060717101140-30092.pdf
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You people are just about
These allegations are ignorant and disgusting. I put my own story in there; are you suggesting that I made it up? I went to the Crisis Pregnancy Center in Stroudsburg, Pa, was met by a woman named Mary Ann, and it was on July 20, 1998. Any other information that I should provide to prove the veracity of my story?
I went to a fundraiser for that place at one point and heard the people talking about the benefits of having ultrasounds available to guilt women into not having abortions; I heard them planning the tactical maneuvers to coerce women into their own mindset of right and wrong--I fucking dare you to call me a liar. This may not be true of every place, but seriously, what woman really wants to broadcast a story like, "These people guilt-tripped me into having my baby"? Get off your high fucking horse and join the rest of us in the real world where occasionally people get pregnant when they didn't plan to or are in a situation that is not conducive to appropriate child rearing.
You people make me sick.
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kellym78 wrote: These
I agree. So why are you posting them?
:D
Sure. Before we get to that, let's note that that does make your story 10 years old. Then, yes, I would ask what happened that was so awful? Did you complain to a higher up? In writing? Did you follow up to see if Mary Ann was still with them 6 months or a year later? Is that the one on 8th St? And do you know who operates or funds that particular center?
See, bitching on its own accomplishes nothing. If it were me, my girlfriend, wife, whatever, and had anything remotely like what is commonly described in these scenarios, I would neither let it go, nor be content to just bitch about it, IRL or online. I would want to follow the money trail. Even if someone somehow acquired a position of leadership over a CPC (typically the ONLY paid position in the center, though it still doesn't pay well) that was okay with such treatment, chances are the churches collecting money for them would NOT be okay with it. If the heads won't listen, maybe the Pastors will. Sure, I'll hear out as few or many details as you care to give, and I can follow up, and see what, if anything, I can find out internally about the matter, if in fact, it was officially recorded and put into digital format. I say that because usually, CPCs only have (database) computers if someone donates them.
I find this curious. The two facts don't seem very conguent. So you went INTO a clinic, and you feel you were mistreated or misled there. Was that before or after you went to a fundraiser for that same organization? What was your purpose in attending the fundraiser? I ask because it doesn't sound like you would have much interest in raising funds for them. But given the number of children at such events, and the language you tend to use, I'm sure going to raise hell wouldn't be very well accepted at all.
Sorry, but yeah, I have to call shenanigans on that one. I can say with at least 90% confidence CPCs don't talk about "guilting women" into not having abortions.
" Let the truth be told
from young souls that become old
From days spent in the jungle, where must one go
To find it?
Time is real, we can't rewind it
Out of everybody I met, who told the truth? Time did"
-The Truth Talib Kweli
Take the guilt out of your statement, and I see nothing wrong with that "tactic." Surely you're not suggesting that a piece of equipment, a scientific instrument is biased? No, an ultrasound machine can only show the truth. I've said it for years- If you want to see the truth of abortion, you don't need to delve into the realm of the philosophical. Just look in the jar. Does it look like a "clump of cells"? A "product of conception"? No, it looks just like what it is.. a tiny half-formed baby.
If the truth you're shown conflicts with your politics or a choice you've decided to make (I'm speaking with the generic "you", not you personally), then you could call that a MOMENT of truth... Do you want to ignore the truth, run away from reality? Or admit that the truth isn't the problem, but your perception, NOR is the truth going to change just because we don't like it?
That sounds like a game of "telephone", to me. They said something, you may have heard it differently. That already sounds like the case above. Then you're going to repeat it, as you remember it, and there will be no way for you to verify it or for me to disprove it. Sounds like an exercise in futility, doesn't it? No, I wouldn't exactly I disbelieve it. But neither do I believe it. There's probably something to it, but I think you had a motive in going that you didn't share with them, and quite likely already some anymosity, whether deserved or not.
Of course it happens. That's exactly why I wanted to help. *I* don't look down on people that get pregnant (it ain't just the woman, though she's easier to shun, for those prone to such things). It's the most natural thing in the world.. the very first command Hashem (G-d) ever gave to mankind - "Be fruitful and multiply."- This instruction was given before the Torah was given on Mt Sinai, before the children of Israel were told to leave Egypt, before Avraham was sent on HIS journey.. before marriage itself.
The Christians even MORE reason to show compassion to unwed mothers, since the man they call "Jesus" was conceived by an unwed mother... they just don't all think that through the way they should.
However, there is a difference between acknowledging and having compassion for those who conceive outside of marriage, and turning a blind eye to abortion. They are really two different.
And as for the "conducive to.. child rearing" comment, I'm sorry, but your predecessors have beaten that dead horse into the ground.
"Every child a wanted child" "It will eliminate child abuse, because every parent will CHOOSE to be a parent"
Yeah, sounds nice and logical. But 30+ years of Roe/Wade and Doe/Bolton, it didn't even make a DENT. It's just utopian liberal idealism with no basis in reality. We all make mistakes. It's a fact of life. It's also a fact of life that we have to live with our choices, including the mistakes. We can't rewind time. No one can get "unpregnant." All we can do is pretend that "pregnant" isn't really
"pregnant" that a baby isn't really a baby, and life isn't really life, if we have the mental wherewithal to dissuade ourselves from believing the reality that any scientific instrument, test, or standard of measure could show us.
So you're essentially
So you're essentially calling me a liar and also reprimanding me for not dealing with the situation more formally when I was preparing to leave the country for three years and also shocked that I was pregnant? Then you claim I didn't understand what they were saying at the fundraiser and questioning the fact that I was there? I don't owe you any explanation, but if you must know, I was still christian at the time and I was invited to a fundraising dinner as company for my friend and I had no idea what organization it was for.
I already stated that not all of the centers may operate in this way, so I don't understand why you are reacting as if I did. I don't appreciate being called a liar, especially over a subject that I take very seriously. Despite your obvious disdain for abortion and its legality, I wouldn't be inclined to dislike you if you weren't attacking me personally. So, I'm advising you to move onto a more general subject of debate and just accept that what happened to me, and others, actually occurred and drop it. Calling me a liar isn't going to get you far on this board.
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Let's try just reading the
Let's try just reading the words on the page, hmm?
I said I neither disbelieve you nor believe you.
The humble need not have an opinion, or a strong conviction on everything, because we can admit when we don't know.
Since we don't know one another, I neither distrust nor trust you. Since your story can netiher be proven nor disproven, and I neither distrust nor trust you, I neither disbelieve nor believe the story.
How is that the same as calling you a liar?
No, I don't just believe everything someone tells me across the internet, so if you want to take that personally or get offended, go right ahead, but I doubt many from the "other" side do either.
Let's try not being
Let's try not being condescending, hmm?
You may claim to be in some state of limbo regarding your belief of my story, but you are acting as if I am presenting something to you as more than a story about my personal life which you would have no reason to disbelieve, except for the fact that you don't want to. I'm not trying to convince you of some kind of earth-shattering discovery.
I'm not interested in playing semantic games with you. I'm not saying that everything posted on the internet is true. I'm merely relating an incident from my own life that happened to relate to a news story which you called dishonest.
I do find it offensive that you would have the audacity to imply that I would be less than truthful about something like that and I'm suggesting to you that you drop it for the last time. I have very little patience for people who claim that I'm being dishonest on an issue as sensitive as this.
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mobius_thought wrote: If
Well she is my girlfriend. Shall I escort you to the door for calling her a liar? I mean what would you do if some holier than thou twatwaffle came on to a site that you foot the bill on, and called your girlfriend a liar when you know her not to be?
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I can't help but be amused
I can't help but be amused here, considering YOU just told ME to get off MY high horse.
Just because you infer something does not mean I implied it. I'm not saying you're intentionally deceiving anyone. I'm saying you're a person not a machine. Everyone filters their senses through perception. We have no choice. I repeat my statement, if you can't prove it and I can't disprove it, it's ultimately an exercise in futility. If you disagree with that, feel free to expound upon that, and tell us how such a discussion can bear any fruit, besides pissing everybody off.
Sapient
And what? She can't speak for herself? She seems to not really need help here. I'll make you a deal- I won't call anybody out of their name, and y'all don't twist what I say.
How does that sound? I don't even know what a "twatwaffle" is supposed to mean... I can only assume that's slang from some place other than America, but whatever it is, I'm rereading, and you're the only one I see calling anyone out of their name. Feel free to point out where if I have actually called someone a name, be it "liar" or anything else. Given the larger site, methinks you people simply have problems distinguishing "doubt" from "disbelief." Perhaps one equates to the other in your mind, but you don't need to project that on other people. In the real world, we're not all black and white. There are many subtle shades, and COLORS!!
Besides which, I see a reference to a "then-husband" up there, which I assume is not you, so how would you know if it's true or not, anyway, besides believing in that which you can't prove, which I know you guys hate so much around here?
Thank you. Thank you. Thank
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
I do so love when posters vindicate my accusations concerning their affiliations with these faith-based programs.
Let's see if I can connect some dots for you, mobius.
Kelly's original post pointed to several cases where CPC's were found to be in violation of policies, laws, and ethics. She offered two individual instances.
You stated that it doesn't happen in your neck of the woods, Central Indiana.
I stated that OH YES IT DOES and pointed out two cities where I have experience picking up the pieces three times after the 'help' your organization offered in the form of referrals to St. Mary's in Frankfort. Newsflash - Central Indiana
You also stated that 'on occasion' people "have to be let go" and that it's 'not the norm'. You also allege that it does not happen long-term.
I pointed out that the same bitch that did the exact same thing that happened to Kelly is still in her position IN CENTRAL INDIANA after doing this same thing for over 20 years.
If two people in two different states have multiple examples including some from a separate state then YEAH!!! it IS a pattern especially when you deny it based upon YOUR single place and propaganda given to you by your employer and fellow ideologues.
Quoting an author named Ron Carlson:
"The problem is credibility."
Here's the bad part for you people. It isn't farm country everywhere. And worse... farm girls have access to the internet now. They can find info from both sides. Meanwhile, you're working on donated computers. Hmmm. Sounds like technology will win in this eventually. Let's hope that data entry will pay better elsewhere when every last bit of funding for these faith-based programs are eliminated.
This is funny:
We have real incidents.
You offer only assurances that we are wrong.
Exactly who has met the burden of proof in this?
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Oh you think you caught me
Oh you think you caught me in something?
Then QUOTE ME. I didn't say it doesn't happen in indiana. Are you KIDDING ME? We're as red a State as they GET. Yeah, you better BELIEVE there are some right-wing Christian assholes around here. I said CARENET doesn't ALLOW it to go on. As in, if they know about it, that person's gone. You're still complaining about what some OTHER group, probably NOT even calling themslelves "CPC" have done, and I told you from the start, I have no knowledge of how they do things.
Quote me, or have your post exposed as just another attempt to misrepresent the opposition.
I think this one moved: CPC
I think this one moved:
CPC of Boone County
1404 N Lebanon St
Lebanon, IN 46052
Phone: 765-482-3306
Pregnancy Resource Center
1746 E Wabash ST #B
Frankfort, IN 46041
Phone: 765 659 2444
AND the not CareNet one that was just as bad for the youngest cousin
Crisis Pregnancy Center
500 E Washington St
Frankfort IN 46041-2055
765-659-2444
Incidentally, they are like a city block from the DCS that has 'lost or misplaced' adoption records that they just 'forgot' to send to the state archives.
Yeah. Did you ever think that perhaps this isn't about 'opposition'?
I'm fully willing to believe that you people are doing what YOU think is 'best'. However, given the evidence it is only your continued existence that is being served.
Meanwhile, I have never been pregnant. I have only helped family after this 'CPC' stuff failed them miserably. The second one is the one that called my Aunt to tell her that her daughter came in pregnant. Of course, Melody kicked her out. Sure helped there didn't they. That's OK. She's doing well now. No thanks to your affiliates. All thanks for the first year to Josh. Yeah. Suck it, jesus. lol.
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darth_josh wrote: You
So in other words, "No I can't back up my claim with actual words you said" ?
It's late, I'll reply to the rest tomorrow.
Perhaps I missed something.
Perhaps I missed something. What are these locations?
Regarding evidence, I think it's based on perceptions, and what evidence you're willing to consider. I, of course, have a different set of evidence. I see those survey cards, that over half report that "Word of mouth" is how they heard of us, and so many more are repeat clients, and I know that any stories like that that happen could only BE isolated instances.
You might probe your niece a little further. If that IS a CareNet CPC, they would not call unless the client said it was okay to call, and of course, we're not stalkers, so we don't even have the number unless the client gives it to us. Some don't, and that's fine.
I definitely don't agree with that tactic, regardless of how it could happen. But there's really no easy approach. How old was she, and how old was the father? Statistically speaking, if a girl 15 or younger gets pregnant it is more likely to be by an adult male rather than someone her own age. I definitely don't support the other extreme either, where places like PP just don't give a damn, and will cover up ANY extreme scenarios. Such as the expose at childpredators.com, where they called 800 PP's posing as a 13 year old girl pregnant by a 22 year old man, and the overwhelming majority agreed to cover it up.
The bottom line is yes, we should frown upon the betrayal of trust, yet it could have been uglier, if they'd have followed Indiana law and reported to the police instead of the parents. Ultimately, no offense to your aunt, but the biggest failure I see here is hers, for turning her back on her daughter in a time of need. And I'd guess she was probably religious? Baptist perhaps? For being supposedly pious, they sure seem worried about what other people think of their walk with G-d. Maybe that's not fair, I'm sure there are good Baptists out there somewhere. But in Central Indiana, the white Baptist churches are the ones that seem to think they don't sin, and having sex is the one unforgiveable sin (which the Bible never says).
And for the record, none of this was Jesus' fault, any more than it was his teachings. Jesus was way cool.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0ZBffjqOB_k
Those places were the CPC's
Those places were the CPC's they went to.
Cousin, not niece.
Catholic, not baptist.
Wow. I thought you were in data entry? Missed a couple of important details there.
We also have a wholly different analysis of 'denominational influence' because it has been the apostolics, pentecostals, and non-denoms in the farmland area of Indiana that have caused most of the problems.
At least the baptists, christers, and catholics will welcome people back later after they repent morally and fiscally. Money buys indulgences even today. lol.
After the second one got her self straightened out, went to JuCo, and married money, she was visited by the same priest who (we think) told her mother to kick her out.
All of these people are inevitably going to interact because of their common ideological point of anti-choice. Tell me you see that at least.
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You can hear the heartbeat
You can hear the heartbeat at 10 weeks from what I've heard/read. If it was before and they told you that than they did indeed lie. I will say though my own experience leads me not to doubt what has been posted on here, but to say that it really does depend where you go and who you encounter-it can go either way. When I was in college I thought I was pregnant and was really freaking out about it. I got a test that was positive, but it was a real cheap test so I wasn't sure how accurate it was. I come from a pretty catholic family, but I haven't been catholic for a long time. At the time living with my family I had to keep quiet about it, and was on my way to grad school, and being pregnant out of "wedlock" would have been a huge deal. I really didn't think I could bring myself to have an abortion, but I was nervous and did want someone to talk to, kind of like you. This was in the mid 90's. My friend suggested I call a planned parenthood clinic, and I did, but honestly they weren't very helpful. They mostly talked about abortion and kept asking if I wanted to schedule one. I guess maybe I should have gone in to see someone but I got really turned off by the whole emphasis on just abortion. Well I ended up going to a crisis pregnancy center that was run by some catholic organization that was near my house. I figured I'd get preached at and if I did I'd just leave, but I was so desparate I was willing to try anything at that point. They actually weren't too bad, I guess they must have been liberal. I did find someone to talk to and we talked about all my options. They did say "it would be best if you didn't have an abortion" but it wasn't said in a condescending way. And no one brought up religion at all. They had some info about pregnancy and I asked to see it and they showed it to me. They also let me take a decent pregnancy test that turned out to be negative (boy was I relieved). I have to admit I was really shocked that they treated me so well. I don't think I would have had an abortion-I tend to be pro-choice for others but pro-life for me. I would have found a way to deal with it somehow, maybe move in with friends or my boyfriend at the time. But in any case, it really does depend where you go and who you see. I do realize that if I'd gone in to Planned Parenthood in person my experience might have been different.
I'm glad you had a good
I'm glad you had a good experience, universerocks.
Here is my favorite link for fetal development:
http://www.visembryo.com/baby
If they showed you any pictures of early pregnancy, do these concur with those images?
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crisis pregnancy centersh
I am totally for educating young women on their options once the get pregnant, But to lie and pretend that you are there to help is sick. The so called "crisis" centers are only there to advance their own pro life cause. They get their "facts" the same way they get their faith......from an ancient fictional book. They claim that a blastocyst or even an oocyte has a heartbeat. Tis is their "facts".
So, in conclusion, If their are any young women out there who think they are pregnant and are confused, please do not go to a pregnancy crisis center. You do have options, legal options.
At the risk of ticking off a *lot* of people...
...I have considered myself to be pro-life, and thus far, that continues to this day. That said, however, I have never subscribed to "barefoot and pregnant" notions offered by the Religious Right. For me, it is, and always has been, a question of the nature of the fetus, and thus, the nature of induced abortion as an act.
With that acknowledged, I really wanted to say the following:
1. Kelly, I believe you. I have seen the dishonesty of the Religious Right on so many other issues, (religious ones in particular, though not excluding more secular concerns,) that you easily have more credit than they, in my eyes.
2. The behavior described as occuring at these "crisis pregnancy centers" is so outrageous that even with pro-life assumptions as a given, I cannot give this behavior even the feeblest defense. This behavior is disgusting, to say the least.
3. My question for you, Kelly: if you have been lied to concerning the development of the fetus, then it's a pretty fair bet that I have been, too. You mentioned a few items in your OP; is there any other information that you've learned over time? I really do want to know what you've learned.
Conor
No surprises
No one should be surprised at any of this. Theists found their religions on lies and depend on lies to continue to propagate them and suck in new adherents. Brainwashing children, intolerance, violence, and even murder have never been out of the question for religion.
Most of the problems of the world are, and always have been, caused by religion. Mankind will never truly be free until the black yoke of religion is lifted by the clear light of truth and rational thinking.