Some mathematical infinity problems to mess with your head

triften's picture

If I have an infinitely large bag and I take on a series of steps. Step 1 consists of adding 10 ping-pong balls, numbered 1 through 10, then removing ping-pong ball number 1. Step 2 consists of adding balls labeled 11 through 20, then removing ball #2. So, step n is adding balls 10n-9 through 10n, then taking out ball # n.

Q1: "After" an infinite number of steps, how many balls are in the bag?

Let us now say that step n consists of adding 10 balls, then removing 1 of them and none of them are labeled.

Q2: "After" an infinite number of steps, how many balls are in the bag?



















































Answers:

A1: The bag is empty. In every step, the number of balls increases by 9, BUT, for any ball, one can designate which step the ball was removed.

A2: The bag has an infinite number of balls. In each step, the number of increases by 9...

A bit odd, but thats what you face with infinities.

mavaddat's picture

This is how I thought this

This is how I thought this through, outloud (but in my head):

In the first example, let's suppose there are some balls in the bag. But which balls could they be? For ball 1 cannot be supposed in the bag, we can be sure that it is taken out in the first step. Likewise, ball 2 cannot be in the bag, since it is taken out in the second step. And so on for ball n, which is taken out in the nth step. Thus, by contradiction, there cannot be any balls in the bag.

The second example seems similar. Can we not use the same reasoning? Perhaps not. For if we ask when ball 1 is taken out, we are immediately ignorant. We don't know when ball 1 is taken out! Indeed, we don't know that it is ever taken out.

So it seems like the mere randomness of the ball-addition-algorithm (so to speak) led to this pseudo-paradox. Weird!

econgineer's picture

I can't wrap my brain around

I can't wrap my brain around that, but at least I understand why Georg Cantor went insane.

Tilberian's picture

I've always felt

I've always felt (intuitively, I suck at math) that infinity is a self-refuting concept because anything that is infinitely big is also infinitely small. Any portion of an infinitely large object (like, hypothetically, the universe) is infinitely small in comparison to the whole. Which means it is nothing. Which means that no part of the universe exists. Which is rather obviously wrong.

Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown

SPOILER ALERT: My solution

SPOILER ALERT: My solution (without looking at the answer).

For each step, n, we've added 10n balls, but taken out n balls. So for each n, the number of balls is 10n-n = 9n. Taking this as a sequence, it diverges to infinity.


mavaddat wrote:

In the first example, let's suppose there are some balls in the bag. But which balls could they be? For ball 1 cannot be supposed in the bag, we can be sure that it is taken out in the first step. Likewise, ball 2 cannot be in the bag, since it is taken out in the second step. And so on for ball n, which is taken out in the nth step. Thus, by contradiction, there cannot be any balls in the bag.

The problem here is if you take something that's growing infinitely large, and subtract from that something also gowning infinitely large, you don't always get 0. And, this is one of those cases.


Tilberian wrote:
I've always felt (intuitively, I suck at math) that infinity is a self-refuting concept because anything that is infinitely big is also infinitely small. Any portion of an infinitely large object (like, hypothetically, the universe) is infinitely small in comparison to the whole. Which means it is nothing. Which means that no part of the universe exists. Which is rather obviously wrong.

Well, infinity is a hard thing to wrap your head around. They don't get into really studying infinity until upper division mathematics classes. If you stopped at calculus or DE, then I'd understand the confusion.

Anyway, your example is wrong. For instance, the real number line, and the segment between 0 and 1, denoted (0, 1), both have infinitely many numbers in them. But since (0, 1) is only a "portion" of the number line, you'd think it's infinity smaller than the number line as a whole.

But the function "f(x) = 2/Pi * arctan(x)" maps every point on the real number line to one, and only one point in (0, 1). Moreover, every point in (0, 1) gets mapped to, i.e. for every y, a number in (0,1) theres a point on the the real number line, x, such that f(x) = y.

Anyway, this function pairs, in a one-to-one fashion, every point on the real number line with every point in (0, 1). So, they both have the same "number" of points in.

The key in dealing with infinities is using function like f. We compare sizes of infinities (yes, there are different sizes of infinity), by trying to find a function that matches points.

mavaddat's picture

Arguing math!

MrRage wrote:
The problem here [with my first solution] is if you take something that's growing infinitely large, and subtract from that something also gowning infinitely large, you don't always get 0. And, this is one of those cases.
First of all, thanks for posting. In response, I believe I can prove my assertion (that, indeed, the bag would be empty) using mathematical induction. Are you familiar with the procedure of mathematical induction? Do you agree that it would be useful here? Would you like me to give it a try?

Tilberian's picture

But the numbers between 0

But the numbers between 0 and 1 are abstracts. It is unsurprising that we can conceive of abstract infinities, for instance, I can imagine a perfect square even though such a thing could never exist in the real world.  I (sort of) understand that the math works, but just because we can describe a concept mathmatically, does that make it real? My example of the square would seem to refute the idea.

I'm saying that the actual universe can't be infinite. Do your numbers show that it can? 

Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown

mavaddat wrote: I believe I

mavaddat wrote:
I believe I can prove my assertion (that, indeed, the bag would be empty) using mathematical induction. Are you familiar with the procedure of mathematical induction? Do you agree that it would be useful here? Would you like me to give it a try?

I'm familiar with mathematical induction, but I don't know if it would be useful in showing the bag would be empty. Go ahead and give it a try.