Watch as Derren Brown converts atheist into believers in a couple of minutes. Make sure to watch part 2 where it explains how it's done in the video description. It something called NLP I think.

I'm kind of hesitant to post this so religious nuts don't use this tool(which they already are do to some extent) but thought it would be of interest.

Christians should especially watch this to understand what the Holy Spirit really is. Please dont learn how to do this for abusive purposes like making more christ bots.

I don't need to go into detail about what I hate about these fundies. Their theology is the same vile combination of psychological abuse, incoherent theories and ignorant claims that we get from Christian fundies all over. What trully confounds me is that the holders of such awful beliefs are some of the greatest people I've met. It's not just that they're 'nice', they're also so alive...

Fellow Brits might be familiar with what I mean. To the rest of you I'll explain further. English evangelicals share the same beliefs as American ones but because of the differences in culture and political climate, there's a large difference in their attitude towards disbelievers. I think that the main difference is as follows:
In America, evangelical Christianity is the status quo in most places so a denial of it is seen as rocking the boat and the Christians are trying to preserve their culture. Therefore, questioning and objecting is scary to them and they try to clamp down on it.
In England, evangelical Christianity is a minority. They want to challenge the status quo. Because of this they want to be questioned. They want to make people think and change their opinions. They want there to be a dialogue in order to find out the truth. If you get into an argument with an English evangelical over their religion then it'll make their day that you weren't apathetic!

This difference might sound small but it makes a world of difference.
Atheists/antagonists are no longer seen as trouble makers up to no good.
It's not a case of "you ought to be listening to us" it's a case of "we'd love it if you came to listen to us." That might sound like a better choice of words, but I'm not talking about 'technical politeness' here. Their genuine attitude towards non-believers is one where they don't make demands or expectations.
Their use of the wager is slightly different too.
It's an anti-apathy measure. It's a "there's no use in just saying 'all religions are true' as our one says there's no sitting on the fence. Either you agree or you disagree and you want to be sure!" kind of wager. Still psychologically abusive as it takes advantage of your honesty about your own fallibity, but not quite as bad as other uses of the wager.


Anyway, you're probably wondering why I made a topic about these guys. The truth is, I think we can learn from these guys in a several ways.
1) What they are attempting to acheive in England is similar to what the RRS are trying to acheive in the Bible belt - the acceptance of a controversial viewpoint.
2) They embody everything that is appealing about theism. As the movement is a growing one, they rely on conversion rather than 'brainwashing from birth'. Freethinking people who thought themselves immune to superstition have found themselves snared.
3) I find their 'spiritual' lifestyles are very impressive. I said earlier that are 'alive'. What I mean is, I've often thought of the characteristics I value most in a personality. Although these guys often score rockbottom for rationality, everything else about them - their attitude towards people, life, their work, their play...
Surely this 'spirituality' doesn't depend entirely on superstition.
Surely there is a way we could come to understand this lifestyle in a way that means we can reap the benefits but in a rational way.


All three points are tied in the following observation:
They have the same uphill struggle that the RRS have, except even worse as they don't even have the rational truth to convince people with. Yet they are persuading intelligent people to put their rationality aside, accept a theology with some horrific ideas in it. These people they convert have to admit that they are miserable worthless sinners who require saving and that if they don't they will burn in hell, that all their non-Christian friends are set to burn in hell and that any friends/family members who died non-Christian are suffering for eternity. So what could possibly be drawing these people in?

They aren't converting people from a rational perspective. I think we all know that accepting Fundy rationality is an exercise in convincing yourself that you're not a naive idiot for going along with this. They aren't converting people from a wishful thinking perspective, as although the promise of eternal bliss is nice, that on it's own wouldn't be enough. What's more there's the burden by the uglier beliefs like eternal damnation and the guilt of your own human nature. So what does convince them?

It is this spirituality I talk about. It is the atmosphere of this Christian community. As much as I abhore their moral theories, their moral practice is impeccable. They are genuinely nice and hospitable people and you can see that although they have to go through challenges and internal struggles, there's a real joy to their faith. They are so driven with a conviction that what they're doing is nice.
Converts aren't buying into the theology. Many will admit straight up that they don't fully understand the theology. They have been overwhelmed by the atmosphere of the people, felt so alive that they're left sure that this theology, whether they understand it or not, is the answer to life.


So how does this affect us?
The main drive people have for accepting the most appalling superstitious beliefs is that they come with this 'spirituality' that they want from life. The general view of the 'faithless' is of those who have denied something because they couldn't understand it, because they weren't open to something new. If we could find a rational approach to spirituality (like Sam Harris is advocating) that could tap into this human need, give us the desired lifestyle, not only would we get all the benefits of religion without the bad, not only would we ourselves master the happy 'spiritual life', we would also take from religion it's final incentive to encourage irrationality.

Thoughts?

Well, I always see Christians etc put such things as evolution down as being "just a theory" and they want Creationism taught in schools as well, because it's a theory so much be on the same level as science as evolution. Well this never really made sense to me, other then the constitution and other documents in other countries that say you can not push religion on people i'm not talking about that.

What is a theory? A theory is a collection of observational evidence, testable evidence, tests, hypothesis, and conclusions. A theory is not a guess. A hypothesis is kind of a guess.

 This is a serious question thats serves two purposes for me but before I reveal my purpose please tell me; What would it take for you to believe in Christ?

If they found Noahs Ark and could prove it, if you saw someone healed (not on a Benny Hinn show), if you had a near death experience. What would it take. Please no smart ass asnwers, because this is an honest question.

 go to this site for bible defense http://www.raptureready.com/rr-bible.html

Let's talk about the 10 commandments. I have a couple of questions about them. First, just in case, let's make sure we all know what we're talking about.

Jesus footprints

    Right fooprint of Jesus

Mohammed's footprint

The theodicy problem is as old as the God fairy tale itself. Namely, how can God coexist with the evil and suffering in the world? Thelogians respond three ways:

Mysticism: This is the most ridiculous of the three. "God works in mysterious ways and we cannot understand it". Yeah right. Quite posibly, this is the mother, father, and grandfather of all cop-outs. The fact that idiots actually use this argument merely validates Richard Dawkin's objection that religion prevents people from thinking.

Iranaen: The Iranaen theodicy states that evil and suffering is punishment for the original sin. This one has had a falling-out among theologians. Since it is demonstratable by mtDNA lineage that Adam and Eve quite obviosly are nothing more than mythology, this argument collapses. Iranaeus wins hands down the award for reasoning in the world's smallest circle. Furthermore, the argument, in addition to factual errancy, is bizarre. God is so vindictive and uptight that he punishes man forever because a snake told Eve to eat a fruit. Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds?? Thankfully, almost no-one uses this theodicy.

So, I understand a lot of folks here are impatient with theists, especially fundies. I hear ya, but if you didn't grow up in that environment, it can be hard to comprehend.

My family of origin came from SERIOUSLY messed up families--childhoods that I'm learning were *totally fuct*. Fundyism was a crutch--they could have run to drugs, other religions, etc. So, in reality, they are mentally ill, just not organic brain trauma like schizophrenia, etc. And since lots of people would fall into that category (loss of spouse, family, need more meaning), why not tolerate them? We don't mock people w/ schizophrenia, right?

First, let me say that I do not believe in Hell, or any other eternal damnation.  It just doesn't make any logical sense!  So on that point, we agree. Second, let me say that I do not believe that prayer can help anything of this world physicaly.  That too, makes no logical sense.  Why would a creator of the universe care what happens to our physical bodies if in fact there is a greater plan for our "after life"?  So on this point, we agree. Let me also say that I believe in evolution.  Anyone who doesn't is completely blind, in that we can see evidence of evolution all around us.  There is signs of evolution in man over just four generation or less.  So here too, we agree. I also believe that most of the prophets were drug abusers or insane.  I do not feel that any human can possibly interpret the wants or thoughts of a supreme being that created the UNIVERSE!  Proof?  Just look at the night sky and realize what we are talking about here.  Nuf said! Now, here is where you and I cross paths... What about the physical evidence of a divine plan?  Go outside and listen and look around.  NOT as a naturalist.  NOT as a philosopher.  NOT as a religious zealot.  Look and listen as a thinking person.  If you take enough time, you are bound to see some of the things that I see.  For instance, the eyes…  So many of us fellow earthlings celebrate our existence on this planet – many of which could not have evolved from the same gene pool as us – yet have common physical attributes…  Such as eyes.  Not just eyes, but TWO eyes – ON OUR HEAD.  How about ears?  Same thing, fellow earthling.  If you look at some of the other Classes of animals with this in mind, and you are a thinking person (which I think you MUST be), then you will be truly amazed.  An elephant and a mouse.  An aardvark and a human.  Here’s a great one:  A flea and a dog.  Obviously, I could go on all day. I know you don’t WANT to believe in God.  I don’t even care if you do.  I only ask one favor:  If you can see that there is even the slightest CHANCE that I could be correct, please stop targeting the young.  Teenagers need a solid foundation.  Parents are failing in their intended mission.  Sometimes, their religion is all they have to get them through the horrifying years of mankind.  You know the years…  The years when just a girlfriend or boyfriend breaking up with you could cause you to suck on a 9mm.  The years when flunking a class could put you over the edge and make you eat a bottle of pills with a fifth of whiskey.  In this light, show some compassion. 

I know you won’t post this letter.  After all, you are making money!  Good for you.  I just got back from Iraq.  I was fighting for your right to make money, and I don’t want to stop you.  Because of this, I know that this letter will probably go in the crapper.  No problem guys – just please consider my only request.  Thank you.