The Atheist Contradiction

I'm new here so just to get it out of the way, I'm not an Atheist. I'm a Born Again Christian. My first question to Atheist would be how does your argument get off the ground? ( I mean my words here with repect I might add. Theres no place for cheep shots or sarcasim on this topic. It adds nothing to the debate, only stirs up unwanted bitterness towards eachother. One thing we can both agree on is the importance of the search for truth. God or no God. To take it lightly is to not respect it, and to not respect it is to be unworthy of the discussion. I'm not saying we need to take life too seriously, that we miss out on some of the best parts of it, only there is a time and a place. Furthermore, we are all people of different levels of "faith" and we're all in different places in life.)

So, with regard to "The Atheist Contradiction" I mean just that, a contradiction. Let me also admit that "religion" is guilty of contradictions as well. The fact that the Church is flawed does not make the message any less valid. But, just for argument's sake see it from my point of veiw for a moment. If God does exist, to match whits with him or her, more so "It" I guess, is useless. We can only assume God is on our (humanity's) side, as we are here and alive. But this doesn't mean The Devil isn't on our side either. The choice is which side are you on.

I'm sure there is more than one reason why some of you do or don't believe in God, let alone Christianity. Perhaps a bad life experience has led you to unbelief. Perhaps it's not that simple. The reasons are endless. But there are also endless reasons to believe.

Ok, to get to the point. One thing I offten hear Atheists say is, "Through basic observation of the world around me and logical thinking I have come to the conclusion that there is no God."
First let's consider this thing you call basic observation of the world around you. In science, basic observation only gets you so far. A scientist, conducting an experiment, will not test just one subject at one time. He or she will have several tests with several different variables involving each test subject. Once consistency is found then we're getting places.
And the term "basic observation" doesn't get you very far either. Through Basic observation we could say that a rock is just a rock. But if you look closer you find it's far more. It may even have several different minerals that make it up. Break it down even more and you'll find that these different minerals are made up of different types of elements and if a molocule or two were changed the entire make up of the mineral would then change as well, thus changing the name of the rock. All of this, by the way, depends on the stability of the atoms that make up the elements which make up the molocules which make up the sediments and so on all the way up to a simple thing called a ROCK. So, if your stance with God is based on "basic observation," I urge you to reconsider.

Next I would like to say a bit about this thing you call "logical thinking". First and for most where did you get your logic? You could easly say from society. It's been simply drilled into our heads through out history. But it has to stop some where. And as an Atheist, a true atheist, why do you care? If you call your self an Atheist you have no real right to care, if you don't believe in God, a higher power, or reason and meaning in the universe. I understand not wanting to hear, from all these Christians, that your going to Hell if you don't accept Christ.
But, to think religion as psychological torture against people unfair and unjust (as I have heard some of you say on You Tube) is to think it's wrong. So where did you get your ideas of just and unjust? A true Atheist wouldn't care and might just do what ever he wants when he wants, if not for fear of authority. However most of us don't do bad things for fear of the repercussions. We don't do them simply because we think it's wrong. It's in all of us to choose right or wrong, so where did this come from?

C. S. Lewis says, " I could give up my idea of justice by saying that it was nothing more than a private idea of my own. But if I did that, then my argument against god collapsed too-for the argument depended on saying that the world was really unjust, not simply that it did not happen to please my fancies. Thus in the very act of trying to prove god did not exist-in other words that the whole of reality was senseless- I found I was forced to assume that one part of reality- namely my idea of justice- was full of sense. Consequently atheisim turns out to be to simple. If the whole of the universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and there for no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be a word with out meaning."

-Mere Christianity-

To close, I'm very open to discussion on all this and certainly have much more to say. Though for now thats enough. I'm not gona throw God at you all night. I've accepted the fact that there are those who believe and can prove it and those that don't believe and can also prove it. All though the feeling I get from most Atheists is not that you don't believe in God, just that you don't believe he is on our side.
If you have accepted my reasoning thus far, tread lightly as you continue to grow in faith. I might say it's better not to believe in God at all than to go down a road of false hoods about him. But keep searching for the truth and it will find you.

-Glenn Crocetti-

deludedgod's picture

Glenn wrote:

Glenn wrote:

My first question to Atheist would be how does your argument get off the ground?

To which argument are you referring? The "argument" that there is no God? This is not so much an "argument" as merely an observation that no evidence has ever come to light to validate the satement "God exists". How is that an "argument" little more than a simple observation?

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So, with regard to "The Atheist Contradiction" I mean just that, a contradiction.

What contradiction is this?

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Ok, to get to the point. One thing I offten hear Atheists say is, "Through basic observation of the world around me and logical thinking I have come to the conclusion that there is no God."

This is a ridiculous strawman. I have never heard an atheist say this. I have heard the following (totally different) statements:

-There is no evidence for God, therefore there is no reason to suppose God exists (weak atheist)

-A logical contradiction is present in the concept of God, and hence I have a deductive argument which would rule out the existence of God (strong atheist). A strong atheist would make deductive arguments against the existence of God. I put one together here:

http://www.rationalresponders.com/all_a_posteriori_arguments_for_the_existence_of_god_are_intellectually_bankrupt

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First and for most where did you get your logic?

Get logic? What on earth are you talking about? One cannot "get logic". "Logic" is merely a set of axiomatic self-evident tautologies that exist in the universe and are hence imprinted onto our minds by the process of neurological evolution.

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You could easly say from society

This is surely the most absurd statement I have hitherto encountered. Our brain's reasoning faculties are hard-coded into the brain from birth, developing relatively late in embryonic development in the Frontal lobe. If all of human society ceased to exist, you think tautology or logic would disappear? A will still equal A whether we are around to ponder it or not. Tautology exists seperate from our existence. How on Earth could such an ingrained function as logic be construed as drilled in via society?

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It's been simply drilled into our heads through out history

You are confusing logic with the disease of faith. The former is intrisic to the existence of the universe itself, the latter is a diseased appendage of human thought. Logic is an objective set of axiomatic tautologies. It exists indepedent of us, and hence, the very attempt to deny its reliability is to affirm it (being that you have just attempted to construct a premise-conclusion argument).

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ut it has to stop some where.

This is a non sequitor.

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And as an Atheist, a true atheist, why do you care?

This is a non sequitor.

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If you call your self an Atheist you have no real right to care, if you don't believe in God, a higher power, or reason and meaning in the universe.

This is a non sequitor. I cannot see even remotely how it pertains to the topic which you attempted to discuss, which was supposed to be about the use of logic to deduce the existence or non existence of God. And the statement that atheists don't believe in reason in the universe is absurd. Au contraire, atheists (materialists, anyway) believe that reason is all that exists in the universe. As shown:

http://www.rationalresponders.com/a_materialist_account_for_abstractions_or_how_theists_misplace_the_universe

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I understand not wanting to hear, from all these Christians, that your going to Hell if you don't accept Christ.

It is rather off-putting, I must admit. Not that it matters, because this is another non sequitor. It has nothing to do with the topic attempting to be discussed in the first part of the paragraph.

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So where did you get your ideas of just and unjust?

From the same place you do: The ventromedial prefrontal cortex.

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A true Atheist wouldn't care and might just do what ever he wants when he wants, if not for fear of authority.

ad baculum fallacy and ad vericandum fallacy. And technically, this is a non sequitor from the discussion pertaining to "morality", which in turn, was a non sequitor from the discussion you attempted to ignite about the use of logic. I would suggest you read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohlberg%27s_stages_of_moral_development

and this:

http://www.rationalresponders.com/christians_must_steal_from_secular_morality

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so where did this come from?

The ventromedial prefontal cortex.

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Thus in the very act of trying to prove god did not exist-in other words that the whole of reality was senseless-

LOL! I always had Lewis fingered for a fool. Here he is invoking TAG:

http://www.rationalresponders.com/ontological_and_epistemological_blunders_tag

http://www.rationalresponders.com/an_easy_argument_to_refute_van_tillian_calvinist_presuppositionalism

and the neurological functions which he is suggesting to be "random" were it not for God show that is knowledge of the subject at hand is near non existent. Being that I am much better qualified than him in this subject (neurology degree) I have blasted this absurdity apart here:

http://www.rationalresponders.com/vitalism_immaterialism_and_christian_dualism_have_long_since_been_debunked_response

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Consequently atheisim turns out to be to simple. If the whole of the universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning

This is another non sequitor, being that it is an ad nauseam fallacy. Firstly

a) "God" is an incoherent term

therefore

You, nor Lewis has ever justified how

a) The existence or non existence of "God" pertains to the existence or non existence of "meaning".

Making it another non sequitor.

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I've accepted the fact that there are those who believe and can prove it and those that don't believe and can also prove it.

This is a contradiction.

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I get from most Atheists is not that you don't believe in God, just that you don't believe he is on our side.

This is both a contradiction and a non sequitor.

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tread lightly as you continue to grow in faith

I don't follow. Most atheists despise the notion of faith. Why would we want more of it?

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I might say it's better not to believe in God at all than to go down a road of false hoods about him

This is a non sequitor. How can one have false notions about the actions of a being which one does not believe to exist?

 

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

Books about atheism

econgineer's picture

I surely cannot do any

I surely cannot do any better than deludedgod, but I have a couple of comments. First, I am unclear on what "The Atheist Contradiction" is? You state:

Glenn Crocetti wrote:
So, with regard to "The Atheist Contradiction" I mean just that, a contradiction.

without going any further. Perhaps you are referring to the contradiction that you feel most atheists believe in god.

Glenn Crocetti wrote:
All though the feeling I get from most Atheists is not that you don't believe in God, just that you don't believe he is on our side.

If that's the contradiction, I'll assert that by definition, atheists do not believe in god. Contradiction resolved. I think your assertions and presumptions about atheists have little foundation in reality. For instance,

Glenn Crocetti wrote:
One thing I offten hear Atheists say is, "Through basic observation of the world around me and logical thinking I have come to the conclusion that there is no God."

And then you go on to describe a rock being more than one would know by just glancing at it. It seems like your are stating that atheists came to their position with just a glance at the world. I don't know if this is an intentional strawman or a misperception, but I emphatically disagree with that assertion. Just a brief review of the discussions on this site should show how deeply theism has been considered scientifically, historically, and logically.

Also consider,

Glenn Crocetti wrote:
A true Atheist wouldn't care and might just do what ever he wants when he wants, if not for fear of authority. However most of us don't do bad things for fear of the repercussions. We don't do them simply because we think it's wrong.

Again very presumptuous and incorrect. Those sentences show that you believe atheists lack morality and only refrain from bad behavior because of fear of consequences; while theists actually possess morality. There have been threads on this topic before. I will just say, if that is your belief about atheists (or "A true Atheist" as you claim), then you are again under a horrendous misperception.

I hope I got the gist of this post, but I must confess that I still don't think "The Atheist Contradiction" is very clear.

Responsibility: A detachable burden easily shifted to the shoulders of God, Fate, Fortune, Luck or one's neighbor. In the days of astrology it was customary to unload it upon a star. ~Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary, 1911

mavaddat's picture

deludedgod wrote: "Logic"

deludedgod wrote:
"Logic" is merely a set of axiomatic self-evident tautologies that exist in the universe and are hence imprinted onto our minds by the process of neurological evolution.
As someone who has studied formal logic extensively in university, I must say that this is not really entirely true. There is no such thing as "logic" in any absolute sense. There is first-order logic, first-order predicate logic, second-order predicate logic, modal logic, fuzzy logic, etc. None of these have the same set of axioms. In fact, for any one kind of logic, you can have an infinite different set of starting axioms. Well, so the bit about there being one kind of logic isn't really true. The bit about it being hardwired, I really cannot comment on. You may very well be right about this and I think there are good reasons to think you are right.

What I would say is that

What I would say is that logic is the method of deriving predicates from a given set predicates.

I may be going out on a limb here but l think that fuzzy logic is a misnomer. Fuzzy logic is just a set of functions that output the strength of a classification.

Is it justified to imagine

Is it justified to imagine the "message" and even "god" are divisible from the institutions that cultivated them? We haven't anything to speak on the subject firsthand, only ideas that have traveled through many years and many hands. Without religions and institutions, what do features can we attribute to this "god?"
I don't understand the "meaning" writers like Lewis are after. Do they want a pat on the bum when they die?We're on a planet capable of supporting life; we're the most intelligent lifeform on the planet. We have the potential to travel through space in search of habitable worlds if we must outlive our own. If that's all there is to it, we come out pretty good. It's so twisted that many of us should degrade ourselves by talking about a fall from "grace" and "god's" "perfection." "God" is "perfect" in the same way a fridge box with a window cut into it is the Taj Mahal. It's an empty idea that only makes sense if you leave out the details. 

deludedgod's picture

Fair enough. Logic is an

Fair enough. Logic is an extensive topic. But given the way it is commonly invoked, I assumed he was referring to first-order logic, or anything which can be reworded into a tautology, making it a necessary truth. Axiomatic logic is not "invented" contrary to the OP. It is a set of self-evident truths that exist, and that we subconsciously acknowledge (like A=A) etc.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

Books about atheism

mavaddat's picture

Yes, fair enough. If you

Yes, fair enough. If you think there is an important difference between "inventing logic" and "discovering self-evident axioms that exist latent within the human psychology," then I'm with you. I'm not especially attached to saying that humans "invented logic," though I must admit I normally do.

The reason is that before Aristotle, we really didn't have much on logic. And before Wittgenstein, Russell, Whitehead, etc., we didn't have much in the way of modal logic or set theory. So I think there is also an important sense to saying that humans "invented logic."

I don't think, however, that it in any way supports any kind of divine intervention theory. As always, to explain the invention of logic (or any kind of creative act) as somehow the indirect work of God is to explain precisely nothing at all. It is as good of an explanation as saying "it just happened." Invoking God to explain anything is the very abdication of reason and insight. It is giving up the investigation and search for truth and filling it with some supernatural nonsense (literally). Instead, I think that people like Paul Feyerabend, Karl Popper, and Thomas Kuhn give us a good idea about how science and human knowledge progresses.

But for the purposes of this discussion, I think we can say that humans didn't invent logic (in the sense that we just completely pulled it out of our ass without its axioms being importantly tied to human psychology).

AImboden's picture

Attempt at response

Your first question was how does our argument get off the ground.

I don't know what you mean by that.

The second question was why do I care, but I'm not sure what you think I care about.

If you have a "god" and he is on humanity's side,then he must be a very weak "god" and therefore unworthy of any worship or admiration. 

Reply to The Atheist Contradiction

Thanks for the feed back. Now to Clear up a few things.

First off the "argument" I'm referring to is what you call a obsevation. All I'm saying is that your experience and observation of life has led you to believe that there is no God, (More so that there is no evidence of his existence as you put it), where as mine has. This can go along with my other statement "that there are those who don't believe in God and can prove it and there are those that do believe and can prove it". This is not a contradiction, but a fact. People believe what they believe and in some cases there's no way it can be changed. Perhaps I should have gone on to say they can prove it to them selves. Which is all anyone really needs to do.

By the question where do you get your logic? I ment where does your "logical thinking" come from. And you would say another part of the brain. Fine. Where did your brain get it. If you say logic is simply the result of neurological evolution than you haven't done much but use circular reasoning. We are the way we are because of the way we were and the course of evolutionary events that took place led us here. Is that what your saying? It would be like saying the only reason I believe in God is because he told me to. I believe in God for me and I think thats how he would want it.

As far as getting logical thinking from birth and embryonic development in the frontal lobe, again where did the frontal lobe get it? All you've said is that the brain determines how we think becase of certain neurological activity. Which still doesn't explain why, only how. And some logic is subject to change as time goes on. Anchient Man would not see much logic in standing in one spot if he were hungry. He would go hunt and kill something. However today it makes sence to wait for the bus to take you to the store. Be that non sequitur or not, I'm oly makeing a point.

Faith is not a desease, it's a cure.

As far as relating God to Meaning in the universe, I've done just that because your argument with TAG is just another way of side stepping the point. It states that there is a presumed dilema of no explanation for reason, ethics, science,and logic in the universe. If we (Christians) link God to these things then the dilema is solved. And we now have a reason , maybe even a need for these things. If you can't accept that, then I'll look at it from your side for a moment. Say there is no God and don't link him to logic, science,and ethics You'll find there is no difference. If we don't have a reason for these things then why do you bother with them? Because we choose to and it's necessary to find meaning in the universe. Or is it?

Two more things. I was not stating that Atheists are any more or less immoral than Theists. It makes no difference in Gods eyes, unless repentance is involved and even then it's confusing. I know allot of Christians my self included that might be looked at as haveing absolute shit for morals.

Second, about the statement of "basic observation of the world around me and logical thinking I've come to the conclusion...," I must add that I've heard allot on You Tube, from time to time out side of there. My apolgies, perhaps those on You Tube don't represent the entire Atheist cause, just as Ray Comfort and Curt Cameron don't represent the entire Christian cause. There hearts are in the right place, They are just a little naieve.

- Glenn Crocetti-

My anecdotal evidence beats

My anecdotal evidence beats yours. You lack objective proof of "god" and so do I. Guess who comes out ahead.
Saying that logic developed naturally, through evolution, isn't tautology, it's the explanation. Humans are a lucky species, but there is nothing about us that begs such stupid "spiritual" questions. We're full of vestigial traits which confess our origins.

Gauche's picture

Whats the difference

Whats the difference between being able to prove something to yourself that is counter-factual and being delusional? I think the mistake you made is that you came here and asked us these questions before you asked yourself and really thought about it.

If you believe that an all powerful god created logic then it would be contingent on that god and he could create logical contradictions. If logical contradictions could exist then logic wouldnt be reliable and since you used logic to form your argument, your argument would be unreliable.

You would think that everything is relative if you followed your argument to its natural logical conclusion. But you dont, instead you stop in the middle and then come here to accuse us of doing what you are actually doing yourself.

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft

deludedgod's picture

Quote: First off the

Quote:

First off the "argument" I'm referring to is what you call a obsevation. All I'm saying is that your experience and observation of life has led you to believe that there is no God, (More so that there is no evidence of his existence as you put it), where as mine has.

Ad nauseam fallacy + anecdotal fallacy + denying the correlative fallacy

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This can go along with my other statement "that there are those who don't believe in God and can prove it and there are those that do believe and can prove it".

No. This is an absurd contradiction. Not a fact. There is no trichotomy here. Either God exists or he does not. Hence, either people who believe they can prove his existence are mistaken, or people who believe they can disprove his existence are mistaken. Pretending that there is some fuzzy logic middle ground is absurd. Your argument breaks the law of Excluded Middle.

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Perhaps I should have gone on to say they can prove it to them selves. Which is all anyone really needs to do.

This is a red herring fallacy.

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By the question where do you get your logic?

This is a red herring question. One cannot “get logic”. Logic just exists. To deny this is to affirm it, since it is an inherent requisite for constructing a valid argument. One does not “get logic” from anywhere. You would do well to read this:

http://www.rationalresponders.com/a_materialist_account_for_abstractions_or_how_theists_misplace_the_universe

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I ment where does your "logical thinking" come from.

This, again, is a nothing question. Unless you are referring to the brain area which is the center of human reasoning, in which case, the frontal lobe.

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and you would say another part of the brain. Fine. Where did your brain get it.

This is a nothing question. One does not “get logic”. Logic simply exists in the universe, and being that the brain is part of the universe, the brain’s functioning relies on the laws of logic. Hence, these laws are imprinted into our consciousness. It is absolutely pointless to ask where one “obtains logic” being that this is a non sequitor. Again, I direct you to read this:

http://www.rationalresponders.com/a_materialist_account_for_abstractions_or_how_theists_misplace_the_universe

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If you say logic is simply the result of neurological evolution

This is an absurd strawman. I never said such a thing. I said that neurological evolution had developed an animal capable of higher thought and reason. I never said anything remotely as foolish as what you are pertaining that I have said. Logic exists indepedent of all biological functions. It simply exists as the result of a natural universe which follows self-evident truths called tautological axioms, because the denying of such truths is to affirm them (stolen concept fallacy).

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We are the way we are because of the way we were and the course of evolutionary events that took place led us here.

This is a non sequitor. You have yet to actually clarify, by the way, the question you are asking or the contradiction to which you are pertaining.

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Is that what your saying?

No. This is absurd. Biological evolution did not “develop” logic. I believe it near impossible to get this through your head: Tautologic simply exists. It is the result of existence, and it is self-evident. The denial of it is the affirmation of it. Again, I urge you to read this:

http://www.rationalresponders.com/a_materialist_account_for_abstractions_or_how_theists_misplace_the_universe

[quote

As far as getting logical thinking from birth and embryonic development in the frontal lobe, again where did the frontal lobe get it?

Are you trying to be funny? This is the same question you have hence asked three times now. I told you one cannot “get logic”. Logic simply exists. It simply happens that we are sentient creatures and hence have the ability to ponder that fact. My point about the frontal lobe was that it is the center of human reasoning. It does not “invent” logic, logic does not come from the Frontal lobe. The concept of “sentient being with a frontal lobe” presupposes the indepedently existing question of logic existing, hence making your question a non sequitor.

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All you've said is that the brain determines how we think becase of certain neurological activity. Which still doesn't explain why, only how.

Because logic exists, dammit, thats why, and we have a part of the brain which allows us to ponder that fact. The reason why our brain has a logic processor is because it is an evolutionary advantage for a sentient organism to be able to engage in rational thinking. It says nothing, NOTHING AT ALL pertaining to the existence of an indepedent set of axioms called tautologic. It is irrelevant. I merely made the point to show the utter falsehood of your original notion of “logic” being drilled in via societal norms. The concept of logical thinking presupposes the concept of society, since it would be rather difficult for a group of organisms without logic engines to construct societies, hence making your query an absurd non sequitor, but the concept of logic engines (like the frontal lobe) presupposes the concept of logical law, which simply exists, indepedent of sentient creatures with the capacity to ponder it or not. I surely cannot make this any more clear.

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And some logic is subject to change as time goes on.

This is an absurd non sequitor. Logic is fixed and unmutatable. The laws of logic do not “change”. (This is a stolen concept fallacy- the affirmation of this statement results in its denial). You will not wake up tommorow and discover that A no longer equals A. You seem to conflating “logic” with “human acknowledgement of logical law”. Why? This is irrelevant. A red herring fallacy.

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Anchient Man would not see much logic in standing in one spot if he were hungry. He would go hunt and kill something.

Another non sequitor. This pertains nothing at all to the issue at hand. In fact, it really doesn’t pertain to anything.

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However today it makes sence to wait for the bus to take you to the store. Be that non sequitur or not, I'm oly makeing a point

Why make a point if the conclusion does not follow the premise? It just becomes garbled nonsense.

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Faith is not a desease, it's a cure.

A cure to what?

Before you answer that, I beg to differ that theism is a cure to anything at all, on the contrary, unless we do something, it will unmake our world, as I have shown:

http://www.rationalresponders.com/is_the_evolutionary_advantage_of_religion_coming_to_an_end

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As far as relating God to Meaning in the universe, I've done just that because your argument with TAG is just another way of side stepping the point.

How on Earth is it sidestepping the point when the whole argument of TAG rests fundamentally on the absurd notion (prerefuted) that everything presupposes the Christian God (which it doesn’t). YOU invoked TAG, and now you are accusing me of sidestepping issues?

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It states that there is a presumed dilema of no explanation for reason, ethics, science,and logic in the universe.

No. It states that without the Christian God, there is no explanation for such things. However, it is pointless to discuss an already refuted pathetic argument like TAG!

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f we (Christians) link God to these things then the dilema is solved.



That’s TAG. BUT this argument is simply awful, and we have taken extra care, as you will see, to blast it out of the water. Most theists dismiss TAG as nonsense anyway. Why do we bother with such irrelevant sophistry?

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And we now have a reason , maybe even a need for these things.

This is a non sequitor. I cannot see the relevance of this string of words to what we are discussing. It is borderline incoherent.

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If you can't accept that, then I'll look at it from your side for a moment.

Why would I accept a universally despised, prerefuted argument from a handful of long-deceased psuedointellecuals?

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Say there is no God and don't link him to logic, science,and ethics You'll find there is no difference. If we don't have a reason for these things then why do you bother with them?

This is a contradictory statement. The second sentence contradicts the first. If TAG is false and God is not inherently linked to X, Y, Z etc (it would be an absurd suggestion, anyway, to state that anything, anything at all could be “epistemilogically dependent” on “some entity”, which makes this whole paragraph a non sequitor) then it is irrelevant to ask why to bother with such things if one does not believe in God, being that, If TAG is false, the existence or non existence of God is irrelevant, which, again, makes this a non sequitor.

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just as Ray Comfort and Curt Cameron don't represent the entire Christian cause.

You should certainly be glad of that. Kirk Cameron has the IQ of a radish, and Comfort was probably hit on the head with a large crucifix as a child. They are both quite comical actually. They amuse me to the point that I enjoy watching them.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

Books about atheism

mavaddat's picture

Glenn, with all sincerity,

Glenn, with all sincerity, I find it very difficult to address the points you raise due to the fact that they aren't even part of the discussion these days. I mean, you are raising points that have just been dealt to death already in so many other places, it's ridiculous. For us to address them here would be an insult to those great minds who have lived before us and who advanced the conversation so much farther. I know this all sounds very condescending, like "You are below me," but your arguments really haven't had any force for anyone important since the seventeenth century. Honestly, I'm not trying to put you down. I just cannot engage in this discussion unless I see something interesting on your side.

I honestly do want you to come back here and debate us all and kick all our asses. But you're not going to do it with those tired arguments. I suggest you read a little on Hume's "Dialogues Concerning Natural Theology" to get a sense for the arguments that have really moved this debate forward. Thanks for joining us!

AImboden's picture

hmmmmmm.

I don't think I can prove to you or anyone that God doesn't exist.  If it keeps you sane to think God did stuff and feels certain ways, then by all means believe that.

My disbelief in god didn't come from observations of the world alone but more from observation of the Bible.  When it didn't make any more sense the second time I read it, I gave up on the concept.

 As far as morality goes, someone with a book of guidelines to follow may be better at practicing morality (wtf) than those without guidelines.

Somehow this doesn't seem like it is helping.  If you are so secure with you religion, why are you on an athiest site argueing with people? 

AImboden's picture

Doah!! i forgot...

I forgot one important answer that I meant to include.

Some people are taught how to think logically from an early age.

 

Adam 

Thank You sir

Many thanks for having me. This was more so to see where some of you are coming from. Clearly it's somewhere I've not been. I'm trying to get a perspective from your point of veiw not insult or degrade. Just asking questions I mean no disrespect. You seem confident enough in your beliefs to treat it all with respect so thanks again. Some people get pretty razed. It's not my intention to stir up the pot only to see how you all think. Take care man.

 

glenn   

none

It's not my intention to piss people off. Call it a general concern for my fellow man, as comanded by God. But thats all I will say about it any more. I'm sure thats not what any one here wanted the hear any way.  

pariahjane's picture

Glenn Crocetti wrote: It's

Glenn Crocetti wrote:

It's not my intention to piss people off. Call it a general concern for my fellow man, as comanded by God. But thats all I will say about it any more. I'm sure thats not what any one here wanted the hear any way.

You seem pretty clear that you mean no disrespect by your questions.  Unfortunately, the subjects that are often covered here tend to raise a few defenses, and tempers on both sides of the religious fence.  As with any sensitive topic, the general rule is not to be offended.  

So, welcome to the forums and let the games begin!  Smiling 

 

If god takes life he's an indian giver

mavaddat's picture

Yeah, thanks for joining us.

Yeah, thanks for joining us. It is always admirable seeing people really interested in fruitful discussion. Even if we don't agree, it is always beneficial to understand each other. Understanding is best achieved when we can feel the force of the "other sides'" arguments.

pariahjane's picture

Glenn Crocetti

Glenn Crocetti wrote:
Thanks for the feed back. Now to Clear up a few things. First off the "argument" I'm referring to is what you call a obsevation. All I'm saying is that your experience and observation of life has led you to believe that there is no God, (More so that there is no evidence of his existence as you put it), where as mine has. This can go along with my other statement "that there are those who don't believe in God and can prove it and there are those that do believe and can prove it". This is not a contradiction, but a fact.

This isn't true.   I cannot definitively prove there is no supernatural deity at this time.  You cannot prove that there is a supernatural deity at this time. 

 

Glenn Crocetti wrote:
  As far as relating God to Meaning in the universe, I've done just that because your argument with TAG is just another way of side stepping the point. It states that there is a presumed dilema of no explanation for reason, ethics, science,and logic in the universe. If we (Christians) link God to these things then the dilema is solved. And we now have a reason , maybe even a need for these things. 

I'm not going to attempt to comment on logic, since I am no expert and those who have more knowledge on the subject have already commented.  

Why does god have to be there to solve the dilemma? You talk about having no explanation for reason, ethics, science, etc. Perhaps we don't.  Perhaps we just haven't found the answer yet.  Why use god to fill in the blank when you can't be sure?  

If god takes life he's an indian giver

Hey

Hey thanks for your input. I hope this is a little more clear.

  My argument was that if the the universe has no meaning than we would not know about it. As in a world with out light and thus creatures with no eyes, the word "dark" would have no meaning. This is C.S. Lewis.

It was then said that there is no reason to relate things we can't explain to God, Things like logic,science and ethics. All good things, and all attributed to God. (From my point of veiw that is)

It was then pointed out to me that: Logic exists indepedent of all biological functions. It simply exists as the result of a natural universe which follows self-evident truths called tautological axioms, because the denying of such truths is to affirm them (stolen concept fallacy).

 

So thats how far we got and here's where I'm at now.

If Logic just exsists in the universe and would go on to exist apart from humanity, than it must "logicaly" be something we can't explain. Atheism is almost seems similar to Christianity for a moment there. Consider what is happening.

You've more or less just taken the Name of God and his title and called it a Natural Universe. For this to exisist, one must have a great deal of faith. The athiest has faith in the logic and the Christian has faith in his God. And we don't stop there. We believe that God encompasses logic and much more. Like morals, reason, truth, love and hate. I know it must sound strange but hate as well. God hates sin as I'm sure every one knows. The list of qualities is near endless. 

Ok back on track. To end, both of us Atheist and Christians alike exibit a large amount of faith in our own system. The fact that we both let the system we have faith in rule the way we run our lives. We do this buy trying to figure the problem out, to solve the dilemma, day in and day out. Were doing it in this conversation. So weather you call it God or Logic we are both worshiping and idoliizing some thing.

In other words: 

If we were apart from some thing from the begining, how could we know a feeling of absence from that some thing. Picture your self blind from birth and have never seen any thing. You wouldn't know what your missing.    Thusly there would be no great concern in your head over it. Sure you would have to live your daily life differently, seeing eye dogs and all. But You might just say something like,           " Apparently theres this thing called sight. They tell me it's wild but I don't see whats so great about it."

Also a blind person would have to believe that there is this thing called sight. And he is different from every one else. If he refused based on the logical situation for him, ( Never expeirencing sight) He would be wrong to us but not to him self. But think now if he suddenly awoke one day and saw for the first time ever.   

 

   Sorry, I was trying to keep thas short  but you know how it is. Any way thats what I got so far. Hope it cleared atleast one or two things up . Take er easy

 

-Glenn-

 

 

We have witnesses to

We have witnesses to describe light consistently, who can speak to the presence, absence and color of light in consistent terms. We could use systematic methods to confirm that light is indeed the phenomena we're each experiencing, and use other methods to confirm the presence of light.  Sensors based on selenium or cadmium, or photovoltaics, would form the basis for detecting light in a world of blind scientists. Light would just be another invisible part of the electromagnetic spectrum. This is not unprecedented.
Let's move on to "gods." How would the universe be different if this proposition was valid? Do we have a reason to ask whether there are actually "gods," apart from what was written down in unconfirmable accounts?
Your remark that science or atheism require faith is completely false. I'd like to go back in time and abort CS Lewis.

mavaddat's picture

Glenn Crocetti wrote:

Glenn Crocetti wrote:
My argument was that if the the universe has no meaning than we would not know about it. As in a world with out light and thus creatures with no eyes, the word "dark" would have no meaning. This is C.S. Lewis.
This is easily addressed: The world has meaning because we give it meaning. Just like atheists, theists give their lives meaning but then they pretend that their way of seeing things somehow corresponds to the will of an invisible man in the sky (with all due respect). Atheists remain humble and admit that the meaning that they give their lives is personal and subjective. We don't expect everyone to conform to our individual ways of enjoying life.

But consider this: let's suppose there was a God who did have some purpose for humanity. Why should that mean that this God's purpose was important for us to adopt? Again, even if there is a God whose purpose we could know, we still have to choose to adopt its purpose. Thus, we ultimately do give the world meaning, even if we are believers.

I frankly don't care what God's purpose could be. I find submitting to the will of an almighty dictator far more meaningless than choosing the meaning I give my life from my own mind.

Glenn Crocetti wrote:
It was then said that there is no reason to relate things we can't explain to God, Things like logic, science and ethics. All good things, and all attributed to God. (From my point of veiw that is)
Logic, science and ethics are all human made products of our own trials and tribulations. It insults the humanity to give credit for these achievements to some nonsensical superstition (with all due respect). I kindly ask you to not to ascribe anything to God again unless you can prove it or give us some evidence for believing that God should get the credit. Please.

Glenn Crocetti wrote:
If Logic just exsists in the universe and would go on to exist apart from humanity, than it must "logicaly" be something we can't explain. Atheism is almost seems similar to Christianity for a moment there.
Your confusion on this point is profound. Logic doesn't "just exist" independent of human minds. Logic is a tool that humans use. Whether it was invented or given to us by evolutionary fitness, it is part of our psyche. Logic is not some piece of crap that we grabbed out of the air. It is incomprehensible what logic "just existing" would even mean. Unless you can elucidate for us what logic existing on its own would mean (which I'm sure you can't), then it's silly to use it as part of your argument.

Glenn Crocetti wrote:
You've more or less just taken the Name of God and his title and called it a Natural Universe.
OK, you can pretend that this is true, but you should know that our definition of "the natural universe" is an unintelligent, blind, unknowing force that pushes things around arbitrarily without any express purpose. Is that your definition of God? If so, then we aren't so very different!

Glenn Crocetti wrote:
For this to exisist, one must have a great deal of faith.
Um, you think it takes faith to believe that the universe exist? Surely, you are confused or you must be joking. If there ever was a self-evident truth, it is that there is a universe. Perhaps you mean that believing the universe came from nothing takes faith? That is a very different belief than just believing that the universe exists.

Glenn Crocetti wrote:
The athiest has faith in the logic and the Christian has faith in his God. And we don't stop there.
Yeah, it doesn't stop there: If you join now, you get a free hot dog! Haha, just kidding. Seriously though. Atheists don't have "faith" in logic in the sense that you are using it. Logic works. That's why we trust it. Our "faith" is justified, yours is not. So just stop it.

deludedgod's picture

Honestly, Glenn, these

Honestly, Glenn, these arguments are so old and outdated and rehashed that their usage will make anyone smirk. They were prerefuted, blown apart, destroyed, smashed, by philosophers 400 years before you were born,  and then, for good measure, they were ground to pulp by their successors. By their mere invocation, you do a disservice to everyone who has made a genuine contribution to Western Philosophy in the last several centuries.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

Books about atheism

DrTerwilliker's picture

Atheists aren't about to make shit up to answer your questions.

May I simply point out, despite what you might personally believe, atheism is NOT a religion.  Therefore, we atheists needn't supply explanations for every single question you have on the world for our opinions on the existence of god to be valid.  We perhaps can't explain exactly where logic came from, just as we can't tell you the answers to a great number of questions about life and humanity.  The reason we can't answer these questions for you is because we don't make up the answers.  We don't take the answers from one book and feed them back to you as fact.  We don't go out of our way to explain every single thing about the world when we know we have no ability to be sure about those things at this point.  This isn't a game.  It's not "Whatever world view provides the most explanations to life's many questions, regardless of whether they make sense or have any basis, WINS!"  If we wanted to win that game, we'd invent answers, like the theists do.

none

As I said at the start of all this, "I am new here." Debating Atheisim is something I've taken up recently for reasons of trying to understand a girl I met. I wanted a wide picture on the whole veiw. And yes I got more than I asked for. I have learned allot from the past week. As far as continuing with  the discussions, I'm not sure. I very much respect all of your ideas there not simply fluff like so many others you meet on day to day basis. All of this was just to see how you all think, and try to understand why.  

A few more things, faith is not a disease. It's actually been tied to genetics, and labeled "The God Gene"  http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101041025-725072,00.html

 

Second, with regard to doing a disservice to Western Philosophy, you may eat shit sir. Your ideas do a great disservice to my beliefs, but I still respected them. 

They are my ideas and I'm entitled to them. If they are old and out dated then perhaps I'm just an old fashion guy. God made me so.  

 Glenn

   

mavaddat's picture

Glenn Crocetti wrote: A few

Glenn Crocetti wrote:
A few more things, faith is not a disease. It's actually been tied to genetics, and labeled "The God Gene" http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101041025-725072,00.html
Down syndrome is also tied to genetics. And I think many of us here see faith the same way that most people see down syndrom: a kind of voluntary mental retardation. I'm not saying you are mentally retarded, of course. But you might very well be choosing to believe nonsense.

Notice that some people's being programmed for faith by their DNA does not prove anything about the validity of that faith. Do you see why? Think about it.

AImboden's picture

one argument for "god-free mammalian morality"-

I'm sure that there is a reason besides "god" that mamals take care of their young and befriend members of their own pack(or clique).

If this isn't evidence of natural goodness in mammals, consider other relationships like when that dog took in an orphaned baby squirrel as it's own.(I'm sure you can find pics on-line.)

I think humans have a much greater capacity to care for others than dogs have and that is just one area of natural moral behavior.

 Adam

While obviously I have tons

While obviously I have tons of criticisms of the original post, I'm curious about the "atheist contradiction." It wasn't very clear to me, what specifically is "the contradiction?"

 

[edit: Glenn I didn't realize that was you.  I'll try to write up something on all of this.  Although I think it would be easier to convey my points to you via phone, if you were interested.  (I'd record our conversation for the audience)   Glenn and I have been firing short emails back and forth for a few days]

 

 

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deludedgod wrote: Quote:

deludedgod wrote:
Quote:

Ok, to get to the point. One thing I offten hear Atheists say is, "Through basic observation of the world around me and logical thinking I have come to the conclusion that there is no God."

This is a ridiculous strawman. I have never heard an atheist say this. I have heard the following (totally different) statements:

-There is no evidence for God, therefore there is no reason to suppose God exists (weak atheist)

-A logical contradiction is present in the concept of God, and hence I have a deductive argument which would rule out the existence of God (strong atheist). A strong atheist would make deductive arguments against the existence of God. I put one together here:

http://www.rationalresponders.com/all_a_posteriori_arguments_for_the_existence_of_god_are_intellectually_bankrupt

 

I think Glenn is referring to one atheist specifically who said those words in his Blasphemy Challenge video, I've never heard it anywhere else.  Nevertheless I do believe it takes only basic observations of the world around you to determine that no gods are needed to explain it.  Saying "there is no god" there is akin to saying "there is no tooth fairy."  The speaker has taken a conversational liberty.  To bring this in to question is to assume that the speaker would not be willing to accept Gods existence should evidence present itself.  That is the point I believe Glenn is trying to make here.  However, seeing as how I know the person who spoke the words in question, I can assure you that his stating "there is no god" was simply a statement of such high probability of accuracy that there is no reason it to lengthen it by qualifying it with the words "unless someone can prove his existence to me."

I'm sure Glenn would take little issue with someone saying  "Through basic observation of the world around me and logical thinking I have come to the conclusion that there is no tooth fairy."

And that's my point.  There is about the same probability that a tooth fairy exist and that a god exists.  Let's not quibble over someones language about their certainty of gods absence, let's instead look at whatever arguments you actually have that can prove a gods existence.  The atheists in the Blasphemy Challenge are showing you that it's gonna require a better argument than this to convert them to a world of faith.

I saw deludedgod really took some good time on the arguments, I'm not sure how much more I can add to that.  I'll take a look.

 

 

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Glenn Crocetti wrote: So,

Glenn Crocetti wrote:
So, with regard to "The Atheist Contradiction" I mean just that, a contradiction. Let me also admit that "religion" is guilty of contradictions as well. The fact that the Church is flawed does not make the message any less valid.

Well it's good to get that out of the way. I'm assuming this is code for "even if the atheists are flawed, this does not make their message any less valid." If you agree, then let's move past both parties flaws and instead discuss arguments for or against certain gods.

 

Quote:
We can only assume God is on our (humanity's) side, as we are here and alive.

How we can ONLY assume that?

With things like cancer, aids, polio, smallpox, racism, war, violence, tornadoes, hurricanes, deadly heat waves, starvation, suffering, sudden infant death syndrome, down syndrome, and autism I'd believe either God is not on our side, God is incompetent, or God doesn't exist.

 

Quote:
But this doesn't mean The Devil isn't on our side either.

I keep forgetting you're a Christian. Out of all the religions Glenn, Christianity is the one I'm most sure is bullshit. I'm more sure that the Christian God doesn't exist, than I am sure of my own existence.

The whole idea of a devil being used in conversation without you first proving a devil exists, sits odd with me. It's hard to have conversations like that Glenn.

I have countless reasons why yahweh couldn't possibly exist, but allow me to show you just one recent video I saw. Check this out, it's short:

 

Quote:
The choice is which side are you on. I'm sure there is more than one reason why some of you do or don't believe in God, let alone Christianity. Perhaps a bad life experience has led you to unbelief. Perhaps it's not that simple. The reasons are endless.

Out of the thousands upon thousands of atheists that I have personally interacted with over the last 8 years, I can't recall ever hearing a single one of them who arose at atheism due to a bad life experience. I know many atheists who recognize their religious upbringing was mental abuse and that it wasn't a good belief system to teach to a child, but they don't look at it as a bad experience that brough them to atheism. Most say they came to atheism after researching religion or non belief further. It is theism that often is the bad life experience, that leads you to research, and research that usually leads you to atheism. This is the most common story I know, not the "bad life experience" propoganda created by the Christian right while they unknowingly havn't a clue that the "bad life experience" itself is generally: CHRISTIANITY.

 

 

 

Quote:
But there are also endless reasons to believe.

I can agree with that, you should qualify it by mentioning though... there aren't any GOOD reasons.

 

Quote:
First and for most where did you get your logic?

From my brain, which I can prove exists.

You believe we got our logic from god, which you can't prove exists.

 

Glenn, seriously look at it closely, reject the desire to ask "what created your brain," realize the answer to that question wont be god. Research it, find out how our brain evolved, and then research abiogenesis. Look at how we have a very good understanding of how life could've arose from non life. We could go back further, but to disprove Christianity, one need only have an 11th grade understanding of evolution, and a realization that if any of the bible is wrong, it's all wrong to abandon Christianity. Between evolution and abiogensis, there's really no reason to even touch on cosmological origens, which tend to be even harder to understand.

 

Quote:
You could easly say from society. It's been simply drilled into our heads through out history. But it has to stop some where. And as an Atheist, a true atheist, why do you care? If you call your self an Atheist you have no real right to care, if you don't believe in God, a higher power, or reason and meaning in the universe.

So you think atheists don't have a right to care where they got their logic from? It's ironic that your statement is illogical.

I have meaning, I have tons of it. I was just talking about that the other day. Nature conservation is one of hundreds of things that make up my created purpose on Earth. Check it out...

 

Quote:
I understand not wanting to hear, from all these Christians, that your going to Hell if you don't accept Christ. But, to think religion as psychological torture against people unfair and unjust (as I have heard some of you say on You Tube) is to think it's wrong. So where did you get your ideas of just and unjust?

First, we get our ideas of just and unjust from our logic, reason, and a moral code we inherit from our past. However i find the irony here to rich to pass up. Religion contrives it's rules of just and unjust from societal code that existed before it. And if you think for a second that the old testament has a better handle of just and unjust than I do, you're kidding yourself.

Religion is often psychological torture, Glenn, I really hope you try to step outside of your preconceived beliefs on this and disect what we're saying here.

 

Quote:
A true Atheist wouldn't care and might just do what ever he wants when he wants, if not for fear of authority.

First, thanks for the insult. Second, since we have authority do you now agree that our version of just and unjust is dictated to us by government and law enforcement, and not by god?

FWIW: Christians do good because of the ultimate fear (eternal punishment). Atheists do good because they want.

If you want to peg atheists as people who only do good because they'll be arrested if they don't, then I hope you're willing to be consistent and state that Christians only do good because of a fear of hell that they can't even prove exists. I'll take the atheist position if that's the argument, at least I can prove the police station exists.

 

Quote:
However most of us don't do bad things for fear of the repercussions. We don't do them simply because we think it's wrong.

I tend to think most Christians are good because of the fear of hell, not because they simply think it's wrong. And I know this, because they've told me time and time again.

 

Quote:
C. S. Lewis says, ......." -Mere Christianity-

As dumb as that quote was from C.S. Lewis, I'll leave it alone and address only your thoughts.

 

 

Quote:
I've accepted the fact that there are those who believe and can prove it and those that don't believe and can also prove it.

Obviously the last sentence isn't a logical possibility.

 

Quote:
All though the feeling I get from most Atheists is not that you don't believe in God, just that you don't believe he is on our side.

Wow Glenn, there's another one I have never heard. What brainwashing network are you pulling this stuff from? Online Preacher, Church, Rush Limbaugh, Fox News?

 

Quote:
If you have accepted my reasoning thus far, tread lightly as you continue to grow in faith.

Now there's good advice... tread lightly as you continue to grow in faith, or maybe more appropriately turn around and run as fast as you can back to reality.

 

Give your atheist girlfriend a kiss from all of us. Eye-wink

 

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none

I never said the genetics prooved the faith true. I. only stated that some people have faith because it might be in there genes.

And as far as volentaraly choosing it, there comes a point (with faith that is) when it's no longer a choice. It becomes part of you. It may be up and down,weak or strong at some points, but it's always there. This I believe to be the Holy Spirit. Romans 8:29-30 says, "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be first born among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called, those he called, he also justified; those he justified he also glorified." This I admit may piss allot of people off, including me for a long time. However the more I think about it, I am in a sense honored and humbled because of it. It's not to say I go around all day thinking this. Ok. They are merely ideas which define a small part of my personallity. Perhaps they remind me not to judge others.   

Also I will try not to quote the Bible to much as it is bias to my arguments. I relise the topic at hand is God or no God.  I'm only doing it to make a point here. As a person's faith gets stronger and they grow as a Christian, They get a feeling that Christianity chooses us we don't choose it. I'm not trying to prove any thing with faith. It's not possible.  I can't see the need for Christianity if it were possible. That hense, is the sacrafice Christians give up. I gave my life to Christ. (And there is much more to say just on that sentence.)  

Belief in something with out proof is faith, which is necessary for the whole thing to work. If we could prove it, where is the trust and where is the risk? Trust is everything in faith, and I have trusted and have to believe I've seen it work.    

 

There are several levels to faith. And every Christian is different.

This is not to say that there is a certain point of faith every Christian needs to reach.  

I will say he should try his hardest to  be consistent in his search.

 

Allot was said here and it's clearly Christian based. It was only my intention to say that proof isn't necessary for Christianity to work, faith is. It comes from The Holy Spirit, which is the relationship between a person and God. 

This reply was not intended to try to prove anything to you. Only to express the need for faith in life, which ever system you put your faith into.

And one more thing.......

faith    

deludedgod's picture

Quote:

 

Quote:

This reply was not intended to try to prove anything to you. Only to express the need for faith in life, which ever system you put your faith into.

 

But you have not justified in precisely what the atheist has "faith", nor why faith would be an inherent necessity (it obviously is not). I can assure you that only the atheist is operating within correct epistemological boundaries of rationality.

As a scientist, I view "faith" as a worthless endeavor, and a useless word. I value, above all, empirical evidence and reason, as said Spinoza and Einstein. You have not even remotely begun to justify why on Earth anyone would regard faith as a good epistemological system, after all, that would be inherently contradictory to the term "epistemology", which means faith is not a method by which we gain knowledge. It's worthless, unless you have a logical proposition which would convince me otherwise, otherwise, the whole post was a mere ad nauseam fallacy, a proof by assertion, whereby you have still, as of yet, not justified, precisely what the atheist is supposed to have "faith" in. Any atheist worth his salt will be (or should be) versed in basic epistemic rights, and will know what is a rational reason for believing in claim x is. To my knowledge, "faith" is not covered under epistemic rights.

For further reading on this matter:

http://www.rationalresponders.com/what_are_epistemic_rights_a_basic_primer_in_critical_thinking

You will notice that "faith" is not a valid epistemology, for obvious reasons.

http://www.rationalresponders.com/the_argument_from_ignorance_and_its_uses_and_abuses

And by the way, "old fashioned" is not an inherent justification for holding long-since debunked arguments. It would be "old fashioned" the same way the geocentricism is old fashioned, or flat-earth hypothesis is "old fashioned". In Western philosophy, this is more or less analogous.

Quote:
 

Belief in something with out proof is faith, which is necessary for the whole thing to work. If we could prove it, where is the trust and where is the risk? Trust is everything in faith, and I have trusted and have to believe I've seen it work.

 

Fallacy of equivocation.

http://www.rationalresponders.com/doesnt_everyone_take_things_on_faith

Quote:
 

My argument was that if the the universe has no meaning than we would not know about it. As in a world with out light and thus creatures with no eyes, the word "dark" would have no meaning. This is C.S. Lewis.

 


Fallacy of non sequitor. Neither of you have justified the statement whereby the existence or non existence of conscious control would inherently give meaning to the universe, as such it is absurd. As I pointed out here:

http://www.rationalresponders.com/religion_and_the_anthropocentric_fallacy

The notion that such conscious control aka God gives meaning to the universe is absurd and fallacious.

And as I showed in the last paragraph of this:

http://www.rationalresponders.com/the_matter_information_conjecture_is_a_crisis_for_the_existence_of_god

It would be irrelevant, since such an entity would have no way of communicating with us.

Quote:
 

All good things, and all attributed to God. (From my point of veiw that is)

 

The latter is impossible to defend, hence, why hold such a position? It’s untenable.

 

Quote:
 

If Logic just exsists in the universe and would go on to exist apart from humanity, than it must "logicaly" be something we can't explain.

 

 


This is a contradictory statement, you realize that, do you not? You are making a fallacy of hypocrisy by the invocation of an entity “beyond logic” to explain such tautologies, but you have not even begun to justify why this would be necessary, so it is absurd. A self-evident way to see this is to point out:

P1 God is ‘above’ logic
P2 Therefore he is not bound to it
P3 Which means he can do the logically impossible.
P4 We cannot represent anything that contradicts logic.
C1 Therefore we cannot represent god. At all.
C2 Hence talking of god is necessarily incoherent and meaningless. QED

Your arguments are beginning to transcend basic fallacy into the realm of impossible incoherency. I am struggling to come to grips with what you are talking about most of the time.

Quote:
 

Atheism is almost seems similar to Christianity for a moment there. Consider what is happening.

 

Ad nauseam fallacy

Quote:
 


You've more or less just taken the Name of God and his title and called it a Natural Universe

 

Fallacy of equivocation.

Quote:
 

For this to exisist, one must have a great deal of faith.

Fallacy of non sequitor. The conclusion does not follow from the premise.

Quote:


The athiest has faith in the logic and the Christian has faith in his God

 


“Faith in logic” is a contradictory phrase and an epistemological absurdity.

Did I not say before that any tautological proposition could be defended via retortion? Hence, the accusation of “faith” is surely utterly absurd. Even now, you are attempting, however feebly, to attack the epistemic viability of logic by constructing a premise-conclusion argument, and precisely what system are you using to build this? Hey, suprise, suprise! Logic, of course! So, you see, regardless of how you attempt to dodge the issue, inherently, you are doomed seeing as the function is so neurologically ingrained that you cannot hope to even function without it. Logic is the one thing you should never be stupid enough to attempt to refute, because, by your own admission, you would fail. 

Quote:
 

We believe that God encompasses logic and much more. Like morals, reason, truth, love and hate.

 

Fallacy of equivocation. Again.

Quote:

God hates sin

 

 

Sin is an absurd and contradictory concept. It has no meaning. And it is especially worthless when discussing the universe with an atheist, hence, I would ask you never to pretend as though he hold that absurd concept as well, because it is mind-numbingly idiotic. Otherwise, I will consider this a personal insult.

Ok back on track. To end, both of us Atheist and Christians alike exibit a large amount of faith in our own system

I believe I have already addressed the absurdities and contradictions in this statement.

So weather you call it God or Logic we are both worshiping and idoliizing some thing.

Hat trick fallacy of equivocation. And psych projection.

If we were apart from some thing from the begining, how could we know a feeling of absence from that some thing. Picture your self blind from birth and have never seen any thing. You wouldn't know what your missing. Thusly there would be no great concern in your head over it. Sure you would have to live your daily life differently, seeing eye dogs and all. But You might just say something like, " Apparently theres this thing called sight. They tell me it's wild but I don't see whats so great about it."

Also a blind person would have to believe that there is this thing called sight. And he is different from every one else. If he refused based on the logical situation for him, ( Never expeirencing sight) He would be wrong to us but not to him self. But think now if he suddenly awoke one day and saw for the first time ever.

Despite earnest efforts, I can find precisely nil link between your analogous description and the matter you are attempting to discuss, so I will simply write this off as a non sequitor.

 

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

Books about atheism

Glenn Crocetti

Glenn Crocetti wrote:
Thanks for the feed back. Now to Clear up a few things. First off the "argument" I'm referring to is what you call a obsevation. All I'm saying is that your experience and observation of life has led you to believe that there is no God, (More so that there is no evidence of his existence as you put it), where as mine has.

Agreed, the only difference is my beliefs are held in peer reviewed journals that can be consistently verified and yours derive from an old holy book written by sexist ignorant men who were most likely shrooming (that, or they were senile).

 

Quote:
Perhaps I should have gone on to say they can prove it to them selves

Yes you should've considering your first argument was an attack on the language used by someone else, you probably should've held yourself to the same journalistic(or logical) standards you were espousing.

Quote:
Which is all anyone really needs to do. By the question where do you get your logic? I ment where does your "logical thinking" come from. And you would say another part of the brain. Fine. Where did your brain get it. If you say logic is simply the result of neurological evolution than you haven't done much but use circular reasoning. We are the way we are because of the way we were and the course of evolutionary events that took place led us here. Is that what your saying? It would be like saying the only reason I believe in God is because he told me to.

No it wouldn't be like saying that. The whoping difference here is we can prove a brain exists and can show you how it functions, you can do neither with god. The analoogy is ridiculous, and Glenn you're old enough and wise enough to have seen that first.

 

Quote:
I believe in God for me and I think thats how he would want it.

Prove it.

 

Quote:
As far as getting logical thinking from birth and embryonic development in the frontal lobe, again where did the frontal lobe get it? All you've said is that the brain determines how we think becase of certain neurological activity. Which still doesn't explain why, only how.

You should read books on this issue Glenn. It's not likely you'll grasp this stuff if you're making ridiculous analogies like above and presupposing devils and gods in place of the science here.

What you're doing is called an "argument from ignorance," you should look that up as well.

 

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And some logic is subject to change as time goes on. Anchient Man would not see much logic in standing in one spot if he were hungry. He would go hunt and kill something. However today it makes sence to wait for the bus to take you to the store. Be that non sequitur or not, I'm oly makeing a point.

It's actually more like a broken strawman than a non sequitor. The logic didn't change, you're point is innacurate. The logic is...

1. man needs food to survive

2. in order to survive man must put food in mouth

3. man is responsible for arranging to have someone else put his food in his mouth, or he must do it himself

4. because man wants to survive, man seeks food

5. man eats food

6. man survives

 

This is a humorous logical proof, but that's the jist. Mans logic was the same both times, simply his means of attaning food vary based on the environment he is in.

 

Quote:
Faith is not a desease, it's a cure.

It's more accurate to call it a disease, and if you think the disease is actually a cure not a disease, then you in fact most likely have the disease. A disease that helps anyone live a life of delusion, so powerful that'll make you think your disease is actually a cure.

 

Just curious Glenn... what exactly do you think faith CURES?

 

Glenn... you've been brainwashed. My professional opinion is to watch this video 6 times a day for the next 5 years (it'll help deprogramming, say it aloud as well) and accompany it with as much research you can do on the issue.

 

Quote:
As far as relating God to Meaning in the universe, I've done just that because your argument with TAG is just another way of side stepping the point. It states that there is a presumed dilema of no explanation for reason, ethics, science,and logic in the universe. If we (Christians) link God to these things then the dilema is solved. And we now have a reason , maybe even a need for these things.

Greg there's no nice way to put this. The TAG argument is only embraced by the dumbest people of our society. It is the little yellow school bus of arguments for god.

Feel free to read this, then read as much as you need to, look for things that debunk TAG: http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/billings_tag.html

Here is another from one of our core members: http://www.rationalresponders.com/ontological_and_epistemological_blunders_tag

I can't speak with you further at this time as it is futile. I make it a practice to avoid wasting my time with TAGers as they are generally incapable or unwilling to ever understand how reality works. Sorry to just get up and walk away from this, but I'm just too busy to engage with a TAGer.

Good luck Glen, I will look back and hope to engage you again if you can overcome TAG.

 

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