The evil god vs. the good God.
The following is taken from another blog I have up entitled, "a theists conversation". It's turning into a different topic than the original, so I figured I'd start a new blog about it and attach all of the conversations from where it changed to the most recent. Please feel free to challenge anything and all that you see. One thing I do ask is for people to back themselves up. If you challenge God, back it up with specific scripture, if you challenge Christians and what they do, back it up with actual happenings(most people have been doing this and I appreciate it). If you challenge athiests claims, back it up. This way whoever you're challenging can do the proper research to find out if they themselves are in error or to confirm what they understand to be true and why.
Keep in mind as well that not everyone who claims to follow Christ actually does so. People seem confused at times by my responses as a Christian, I am one who truely follows Christ. I'm not at all claiming perfection or anything close to it. I am just as much a sinner or screwup as anyone else. Anyone who claims to be perfect is only fooling themselves.
Below the conversations are as follows:
LovE-RicH wrote:
Submitted by caposkia on Sat, 2007-06-09 06:48.
LovE-RicH wrote:
I want to kill Shirley Phelps using only my mind. I can't. Why not?
I don't know Shirley Phelps, but i also don't know why you'd want to kill someone. I guess if you hate them enough. Anyway, sounds to me as if you want to bypass the whole free will thing and be God.
I guess it's true, people don't know the freedom they are given unless it's taken from them. Without "free will", you would not be able to do anything on your own or for yourself. Someone would be making you do it. You would not be aloud to feel differently than whoever is controlling you decided you should feel. You would not even be aloud to think or know anything that the being who was controlling you did not want you to think or know.
Limited free will? Consider this. Maybe you just don't know how to kill someone with your mind yet. Let's take science for example. Scientists have discovered that humans use about 10 % of their brain. What's the rest of it for? What if we could use the other 90%. Is it possible that we do have the ability to kill someone with our minds and just don't know how to?
Obviously God (assuming he's real) created us with the possibility of being able to do much more, otherwise, why would we have so much brain when we use so little of it?
We know that life adapts to it's surroundings and needs. Obviously we had much more ability at one point, because the brain mass is there to prove it. If greater ability than we now know is not possible, then I don't believe we would have adapted with as much of a brain.
[MOD EDIT - fixed quote.]
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Look Her Up!
Submitted by Susan on Sun, 2007-06-10 21:30.
Caposkia, Google Shirley Phelps, her father Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptist Church and I suspect you'll understand.
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oh I see
Submitted by caposkia on Tue, 2007-06-12 16:40.
Susan wrote:
Caposkia, Google Shirley Phelps, her father Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptist Church and I suspect you'll understand.
yea, I was not familar with her particular story, but she is just another of many hypocrits out there who distort God's word to appeal to their idea of what should be. The bible warns us of those people and tells us to basically just ignore them because they're speaking nothing but hot air.
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caposkia wrote:
Submitted by LovE-RicH on Tue, 2007-06-12 20:00.
caposkia wrote:
Susan wrote:
Caposkia, Google Shirley Phelps, her father Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptist Church and I suspect you'll understand.
yea, I was not familar with her particular story, but she is just another of many hypocrits out there who distort God's word to appeal to their idea of what should be. The bible warns us of those people and tells us to basically just ignore them because they're speaking nothing but hot air.
but but but... how can they be hypocrites if they follow the scriptures literaly, and really mean what they say and do? haven't you read the bible? the christian god in the old testament is very cruel, vindictive, homophobic, etc... they are more honest than you are!
that's why the bible is dangerous and should be sold with a warning label: PICTURE!
once you stop cherry-picking and choosing just the pretty parts, and read it as-is instead, and still believe in it, then this shit starts to happen.
<
>btw, i was kidding about killing her, i was just making a point. but i am angry at her for mentaly abusing her children. those kids don't have any friends outside the church, they're not allowed to go for a cup of coffie with anyone, the pretty girls laugh at the idea of them having boyfriends, they make their 5 year olds hold up signs they don't understand ("God hates fags", etc...>
Here's a nice documentary about them:
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but but but... how can
Submitted by caposkia on Thu, 2007-06-14 21:21.
but but but... how can they be hypocrites if they follow the scriptures literaly, and really mean what they say and do? haven't you read the bible? the christian god in the old testament is very cruel, vindictive, homophobic, etc... they are more honest than you are!
that's why the bible is dangerous and should be sold with a warning label: PICTURE!
once you stop cherry-picking and choosing just the pretty parts, and read it as-is instead, and still believe in it, then this shit starts to happen.
<
>btw, i was kidding about killing her, i was just making a point. but i am angry at her for mentaly abusing her children. those kids don't have any friends outside the church, they're not allowed to go for a cup of coffie with anyone, the pretty girls laugh at the idea of them having boyfriends, they make their 5 year olds hold up signs they don't understand ("God hates fags", etc...>
Here's a nice documentary about them:
Oh, don't worry, I read it literally, and I don't just pull out the pretty parts. I checked out some video of what her and her supporters are doing. Please show me where in the Bible it says, "God hates Gays" I'm willing to bet you will not find that in there. The Bible's core beliefs are based on love. You claim she takes the bible so literally.... I guess she missed that part. She's hypocritical by doing what she does and yet showing so much hatred toward people. The Bible says we should be doing everything out of love, without that, it's useless. Her works are useless. She is not showing love.
yea, sounds like i"m taking the ugly parts out, but then again, prove what i just said is not true. I'm not talking about pull the bad parts out of the Bible either. Yea, there are bad parts in there, it wouldn't be the Bible without them.
Another thing to note, Christians are not Jews. You cannot take into account in todays world what the Old Testiment says without taking into account what the New Testiment says. Christians are New Testiment Followers. It plots out clearly what we are to follow from the Old Testiment and what we are not to follow. It also shows us where many missed what was said in the Old Testiment books. Yes, even way back then. It was apparent that people got too pompus with their faith. Sound familiar?
What anti-christians shouldn't be doing is "cherry-picking and choosing" the bad parts out of the bible when in fact there is so much good in it. One needs to take the books as they are, not by little parts in them. If I took parts out of certain books, I can prove to you that dogs like human blood, that we should kill people, and that God says that if you're a sinner, you should mutulate yourself or even kill yourself. You and I both know it doesn't actually say that in the Bible because we are people that read it as a whole and don't take parts out of context. right???
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God Hates "______"
Didn't god supposedly destroy Sodom and Gomorah because of impure sexual practices??
If he didn't hate the people who practiced such things why would he burn them to death?
(It's hard to ask serious questions about a ridiculous fairy tale.)
answer to the serious question
yes, God did destroy Sodom and Gomorah because of sexual impurities, but basically for the lack of care for another human being. They were atrocious places. It was to the point that if there was anyone, male or female, child or elderly that stepped foot in the town limits, they would be repeatedly raped through the night by all the townspeople.
There is a difference between hating someone and getting angry. Parents can get furious at their children for doing something stupid or really bad, but they of course don't hate them. (Assuming they are honest good parents). They will punish them of course. This was a punishment for them. They were given fair warning, and one final warning by an angel, whom they tried to rape when it walked into the town.
If you don't understand how death is a punishment, in the "Fairy Tale" as you call it, death is also not the end, so of course people will have a life after death. SEE: blog entitled "a Theists Conversation" for more information regarding death in the bible. Please feel free to ask me more if that does not answer your question.
I understand how death can be a punishment.
I don't want to ask you questions. If I wanted to know what it says in the Bible, I would read it again.
But wait, there's more.
I think God hated them. If he was just mad he would have beat them up instead of burning them to death.
More...
I thought God was Love. ???
AImboden wrote: I
response 1.
No one has to ask me anything, if you did, it would be your choice.
Response 2.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Just to put my understanding in perspective, maybe that was God's way of "beating them up"
Response 3.
God is love, but he is also just. Would God be good and Just if he didn't punish people for sinning? Many people try to view God as a giant carebear in the sky. He should be viewed more as a parent figure. That's why most Christians refer to God as Father.
Justice
If god is all powerful and all knowing, then he intended us to sin. If he has a problem with people sinning, he should punish himself.
Biblical logic
I thought you were just another heretic at first.
Since you believe parents should punish their children with death, I can tell you are true to the teachings of the Bible.
Kill your kids, they'll learn from it!
lol, wow. I'm not sure what kind of reaction you want from that one, but let me try the logic approach.
First, I do have to admit, you made me laugh, but I know too that because the Bible to you is only a fairy tale, you see God and people as equals.
Let's look at the Bible as a fairy tale. You and I know in fairy tales anything is possible and can be true, so this should be easy to understand. To say what you said, the "you believe parents should punish their kids with death" is to say that God kills their Spirits/souls, whatever you want to call it. Not true. Read the book of Romans if you haven't already, you'll see that there is a difference between your fleshy body, and your spirit body. God punishes by killing the flesh. I can tell you didn't check out my other blog, because that makes this all clear. In a comparison to humanistic standards, that would be like taking something material from your kids, like video games, or tv for a while. Tell me parents don't do that.
So now you'll say, yea, but eventually, those kids get those material things back. Ok, God gives you a second chance at life! First through Jesus, then in Revelation, you'll see there are 2 resurrections or (bringing people back to life) One resurrection is for people who have accepted the fact that Jesus suffered and died because of their sins and have followed him, the other is resurrected into a life of judgement. Not so that they have to sit in a court and await their death sentence, but to 'try again' with new understanding. There's obviously more to the story, but you can read it for yourself... only if you want to. I'm not saying you have to.
You also called me a heretic. Or that you at least thought I was. I'm glad you noticed that I'm not going against my church, or that I'm expressing my own opinion for that matter. I'm mearly expressing what I know to be true. I'm on this site for the same reasons Sapient is beleive it or not. I hold his beliefs from the Christian perspective. I'm on here to grow as well. I want people to challenge what I know, that's the only way I can know for sure what i know is true. The only way I will change my understanding is if someone will clearly show me, and reference to where they found the information that goes against what i believe. So far, few have tried to refute what I believe with opinions, and very few have given me references to where they get their ideas from. I have been approached by heretics.
A true athiest will scratch their opinions and quick conclusions and show me where in the bible it says "you are to punish your kids with death" or any other radical claim they may present.
Disclaimer: nothing in this reply was intended to offend. I wanted to say I appreciate that reply because it gives me new understanding of where people can take things if not explained clearly enough. I will be sure to take care in explaining further that approach in the future. Thank you
IN Christ's love,
Nick
Oh, ok.
No, I mean that parents are directed to kill their children if they misbehave.
You will find all of the laws that Jesus proclaimed in Leviticus and Deuterotomy.
If you don't kill non-believers and bad children, you are a heretic.
That is what I meant.
oh ok
huh... You are right, Leviticus and Deuteronomy are the books of laws. You will find most of the laws in those books, though Jesus amended a few. Keep in mind Jesus did not proclaim that all the laws were still valid after him.
I also have read those books, and don't remember any part telling parents to kill their children just for misbehaving. Or to kill non-believers for that matter. Do you know the Book, Chapter and verse you read that from? Thanks
In Christ's love,
nick
I'll look it up.
Its way after the part where they heal leprosy by dipping a live bird in blood.
Jesus taught that you should do all the things that the Jews taught. He came to fulfill the law, eh?
Where do you sacrifice your animals?
Leviticus 20:9
That is one place where believers are instructed to kill their children.
I will find the place where it says you should stone to death people who try to lead you away from worshipping yaweh.
Why don't you find a place that says the rules changed after Jesus?
I'll be waiting.
the place
Find a place where it says the rules have changed... hmmm. nope can't do that.. I'm sorry if I mentioned the rules actually changed. If I said that, I was wrong.
Oh, but before you pop the champeign, let me explain to you how Jesus fulfilled the law. It's all in the Gosples.
People were instructed to "kill animals" for atonement for their sins. A question was asked why we don't kill animals anymore, or where we kill animals now. Well, Jesus "fulfilled" that part of the law. He was the ultimate sacrifice. So no more killing of animals needed. He died for all our sins, so we don't have to sacrifice anything anymore.
Now because that ultimate sacrifice for "ALL" sins has been done, why would we still need to stone someone for not believing or adultury. They have a chance now to repent. BTW, I'm not familiar with the law that says stone non-believers, Jews were taught to not associate with them. I'm not sure though, i think that was more of a pharase teaching and not of God. I could be wrong on that.
Maybe the part you're talking about are the devil worshipers. The "demonic" ones were known to be posessed by demons.
I don't know, you'd have to be more specific. Please reference to exact verses and chapters, It's hard to find something small in such a large book. It's hard to give specific answers if the references are vague. I do know you'll find the answers somewhere in the Gosples, which are Matthew, Mark, Luke, Or John. Acts and Romans as well as Hebrews has a lot of clarified input as well.
Animal Sacrifice
Sorry to jump into this, but the sacrifice of animals is a hot button with me.
I've never understood why an innocent animal had to suffer or be killed because some human sinned.
It seems like Tom was a bad boy so I'm going to punish Bill. It's misdirected aggression.
It just makes no sense to me.
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You contradict yourself and Jesus
Jesus said the rules won't change because of him.
You say you are a Christian, but that the rules changed because of "Christ", who said the rules aren't changed.
You made my list of irrational people. I'm not going to argue with you anymore.
AImboden wrote: Jesus said
This is an example of why I think that the Jesus of the Gospels and the Christ Paul describes are two radically different concepts.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
interrested
I'm interrested in hearing more from this view
caposkia wrote: jcgadfly
Happy to help but it'll have to wait until I get off my work computer.
Give me a few hours?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Susan wrote: caposkia
First, you don't need to appologise for jumping to this, and I think it's a very good, valid question.
Sounds like you're saying something along the lines of, someone sinned, so someone else has to sacrifice an animal for them. Not true unless you were a preist, where in that time, it was understood to explain to the preist what you have done wrong and to the fact that you are going to try to better yourself. The idea being the preist can help you along in your troubles. (at least that's what they were suppose to do)
Anyway, I couldn't give you a strait forward answer on why of all things it was an innocent animal that needed to be killed, but none for sure were tortured for the sins of people. God in fact made it very clear in the bible not to do that to animals. e.g. the part where God made a donkey speak and question it's master why he was beating him.
My assumption would be this though; would you do that wrong, whatever it was again if you had to kill a cat every time you did it???
Another note would be that it says in the bible that it was a pleasing smell to God. They also killed animals in the same manner for food to eat, so it was not any more cruel than to slaughter an animal for food. They didn't have slaughter houses or specific people who did that for them either, most had to do it on their own.
Yet another note would be that livestock, (which was usually what was sacrificed) was considered a valuable trading tool, be it that money was not the main source of buying and selling in those days. It was almost like paying a fine.
Susan wrote:
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take your time
I'm interrested in hearing more from this view
Happy to help but it'll have to wait until I get off my work computer.
Give me a few hours?
Oh, by all means take your time. I might not get to your reply on this till at least tomorrow anyway, maybe later. This week's a busy one for me.