Dear Magilum

You seem upset , my friend.

 The type of language used by you takes away all focus from what you try to communicate or convey.  To a steel willed person, it just bounces off.  Then you get antagonized and irritated.

 The power of genteel persuasion and influence is several times greater than abusive language.

regards 

I'm not a mind reader, but I think that magilum has tried that route. We all have. Some theists think they have all the answers and will make loud noises about how right they are, and then proceed to firmly plug their ears and scream "LALALALALALALALACANTHEARYOULALALALALALA."

Quite frankly it's downright insulting when you have done months, even years worth of research on a subject like evolution or history only to have a theist that has read a few bible passages argue with you like a 3 year old over something they know nothing about (I use the term argue because true debate requires knowledge in the area of discussion).

I'm sorry to say this as it may sound bigoted, but small minded, stubborn, idiotic people have to be put in their place. They need to be informed of how little they truly know or else they will pass bad information onto their children, who will believe it because their parents said it was true.

The RRS in general has been doing a very good job of helping people realize how little knowledge they truly have. When I joined the RRS a few months ago I was just a dumb apathetic agnostic (uctaa.com). I didn't believe in a god, but I didn't have the knowledge to refute a theist argument either.

In my short time here at the RRS I have learned so much about evolution, philosophy, psychology, etc. not just from this site, but from all over the intarwebs. The RRS simply inspired me to do my own research lest I be pwned in the forums .

Magilum, I believe this is where you are getting frustrated, and rightfully so: The problem with most unreasonable theists is they don't want to learn. They demand evidence for everything but their own belief, and when they are presented with evidence, they call it a lie, a forgery, or the work of Satan because it conflicts with their unquestioned, blind faith.

I really have yet to see a single valid and/or verifiable argument in favor of a particular deity or religious idea such as creationism or ID. Most of the arguments are downright silly and debates ends up turning into teaching sessions where the students won't listen.

Joshpatten

Quote -Quite frankly it's downright insulting

If one chooses not to get insulted, no one can insult that one. Pretty simple , aint it ? Suggest one has to try this.

Quote -Some theists think they have all the answers

I dont agree. Are they generally different from atheists in this aspect ?

Quote -I'm sorry to say this as it may sound bigoted, but small minded, stubborn, idiotic people have to be put in their place 

So when the 'reason and logic' doesnt work, some of you guys try abuses and insults. Very interesting technique , I say !!!.  Where did few of you learn such an insightful method ? .  Abuses and accompanying language reflects somehwere deep inside the person that he has been wrong in what he has been saying and believing. The knowledge validation fails, but ego takes over and comes out as abusive language to defend the person's stand.

Quote -The RRS in general has been doing a very good job of helping people ____

RSS - I agree on the knowledge part, and disagree with the reasoning to capitulate and  resort to language of the scum  and what have you.  Reflects weak mindedness and lack of self confidence.

Quote  I didn't believe in a god, but I didn't have the knowledge to refute a theist argument either. 

You have not even tried to search for god and see where God is. Maybe you have been looking outside in an objective world  which is just a construct of the Senses.  You are looking at the wrong places. You need to look inside you carefully.  It is all pervading and everywhere.  This cant be seen , cant be heard , cant be touched , only intuitively felt. The feeling is pure bliss, supreme peace , all your desires in life melt.  , most of the negatives get washed off It from the personality, happens to a select insightful few in their every moment. But to most other staunch believers, it happens when they touch base with Jesus, Temple, Church, Mosque etc.  Guess you are making that classic error of overlooking the mass evidence of millions of followers. However for proof , try it yourself , and then validate it.

Quote -In my short time here at the RRS I have learned so much about evolution, philosophy, psychology, etc

Good, learning is always good, as long as one knows to discriminate between the brainwashing and the genuine stuff.  

Quote -  really have yet to see a single valid and/or verifiable argument in favor of a particular deity or religious idea such as creationism or ID

Suggest we have to try to pry open the mind .  If one is already biased, so one keeps seeing  science,  logic , evidence only and keeps coming back to square one.  One can start to remove this bias  by bypassing the ego inside.  (again such a statement is misconstrued, Science is a good tool to have.)

Sounds a lot like this... 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyN5xg6OCQs

I understand where Magilum is coming from. I repeat the same counter-arguments over and over again. "No, that's not the definition of a theory", "No, God does not exist by default.", "No, that's a straw man / appeal to ignorance / post hoc fallacy"... etc.

The only advice I can really give is that you keep persisting and don't lose your cool. If you start resorting (or feel like resorting) to ad hominem attacks, it's best to end the argument or walk away. I think sometimes they intend to egg us on to try and fluster us (and I know some of us do that to them as well).

Another thing is don't try and convert the unconvertible. A diehard stubborn christian is NOT going to be swayed by your powers of logic. Say your piece, determine their stance, and move on if you must. If you have a strong argument and there are other people watching/listening, then it may be worth debating for the sake of influencing the bystanders -- after all, that's who we're truly after: the people who haven't made up their mind yet. If you're arguing face to face with a "fundie" and there's no one else around, you're just wasting your time. 

http://www.answersingenesis.org/

I did not mean for "put in their place" to imply insult and abuse. If a person twists everything you say, cuts you off mid sentence, does not know proper definitions of words, doesn't know anything about the topic, etc. you must either educate them or, if they don't want to learn or intentionally keep repeating the same mistakes, call them out on their fallacies, which may appear to some as abusive or insulting. If a person acts like a child (as both theists and atheists can do), they must be treated accordingly.

Please explain. Are you referring to me or the RRS as a whole?

You have GOT to tell me where you get your drugs. All kidding aside, I have searched. For 10 years I looked for something that resembled god, and I found nothing. The peaceful feeling I get now is knowing that I only have to answer to myself. No one can forgive me but those I trangress against, no one has control over my life but me.

I encourage you to read the book "Breaking the Spell" by Daniel Dennett. He discusses the history and evolution of religion coinciding with the evolution of man. Religion was/is a tool to keep the masses in control. As early man's population grew, certain members of that population realized that they could use the unknown to spark fear into the masses by invoking a supernatural force that would strike them down unless they did what "the gods" told them to. As a reward for their obedience, they would have a place of eternal happiness when they died. I will not elaborate further, please read Dennett's book.

I, as with many of the members of this site, was formerly a theist. There is a reason why everyone here who has defaulted to atheism has done so. I used to believe in a young earth created by god. Then I stepped outside of that box to have a look around and realized that belief in something that may or may not be real was absurd. If by biased you mean "not believing in fairy tales" then yes, I am biased.

I read a thread about a youth ministry site that held a bible verse as claim to its inerrancy; this was after reading the argument of Christian apologist on this site mocking another poster for implying the same. Therein lies one of the sources of frustration of debating a theist. In other fields, real fields, it's possible to be wrong. Other fields, real fields, advance in their knowledge, and are updated as a matter of course. Religion doesn't advance: it shuffles around like a used car salesman, posing ad hoc arguments to address whatever your specific claim is. From one theist to the next, or even across the span of a conversation with a single theist, the argument is plastic, suited to the moment, to address one thing, and later to address a contradictory thing. I have spent so much time arguing with theists that atheism, in definition and practice, does not encompass a world view. My views, my politics, my level of skepticism, is different from other atheists on this board; but it doesn't affect whether I'm called an atheist or not. What I've come to realize is much the same is true for a theist: there is very little uniting them: just this vague, irrational kernel -- this meme of a belief that has been implanted beyond their cognitive faculties. But each of them believes a different thing. And this thing, not being a thing at all, can't be argued beyond ad hoc. It not being evidenced, it's not worth arguing at all. I don't say this out of arrogance, as I think it would be the norm had history not suffered several regrettable circumstances, but I've risen so far beyond infantile questions like gods or good and evil. I can't indulge them for the sake of argument any more than I can convince myself the monsters of my childhood are still hiding under the bed.

Joshpatten

Ques - are you referring to me or the RRS  as a whole.

On the knowledge part , I feel RRS is a platform to exchange ideas ( I wanted to see the Atheists side) , pick up useful stuff also.  Some genuine sparring also. I guess I didnt refer to you as you ask.

Quote - ___drugs___

No. This is not drug stuff.  By bliss, I didnt mean some kind of high. No . It is different. It is an experience of purity. You get the feeling of being pure from inside. You get a universality of outlook. You get supreme peace, meaning nothing in life seems worrisome. Secondly the feeling is initially less, momentary , but gradually it strengthens over a period of years.  I have observed such a transformation in people's behaviour , myself included.  And dont jump to any conclusion here , such people are perfectly normal , no schizofrenia of any kind . Infact later when the feeling strengthens , they become very confident , they even radiate in a manner , they are fairly contented, inwardly very strong. Lots and lots of positives. One other major benefit is health improvement.  They get progressively convinced of the deep spirituality within and then all pervasive. At the end of this spectrum , are people who transcend the normal sense percepts and will coexist with human life on earth as well as the other 'place'. (Dont even think of this as bizarre , yes has happened and still happens to many many people, will continue to happen in future also)

Regarding Dennet's book , maybe I shall try to pick it up, but it will be an atheist's justification, whereas I do firmly believe in spirituality.

Magilum has explained his dilemma of dealing with Theists quite clearly.  

To what Magilum states and Josh Patten , I would like to add following . Please note :-

 There are various kind of Theists, even within the same religion. Eg If a person is a Christian , he may be churchgoing or not, He may believe in Creationism or may not, he may believe in Myths or may not. Like that there is so much variation , so you cant really group this guys into a single set and try to argue against with one set of reasoning.   There are also people who tell their children Mythological stories, however many deep inside know that most of it is Myth only. However argue against them , they may come out strongly and defend. 

What I am trying to say is that dont assume that all theists really believe the various Myths , the creationism  , the historicity of the various religious figures. To them the proof is immaterial. Proof or talking about proof is taboo , not because somebody will lose the stake , it is because to them certain things are beyond proof.  Most of them are not bothered with Scientific evidence or reasoning (myself included, I am a Hindu though and have been observing Christians and Muslims from a long time , since my interest is in religion , so I am saying by observation/analysis) .  This does not mean that such people dont believe in science . They do believe in Science for what it is able to explain .

Many spiritual people and Theists that I have known about , they realize the limitations of Science to adequately explain a lot of things , This is because , they feel and know that there are dimensions in this universe which our Sense Percepts and therefore Science will not even observe or measure.  So forget proof of any kind. The spirit or god or the entity belongs to this plane.  

To most theists in a religion , it is abroad cultural assimilation of the ideas (The myths, the historicity of figures, the scriptures etc) and these ideas act as  some kind of spiritual glue which holds them together.  So when they met informally , they may discuss did someone go for confession or not , when did someone get his child baptized or not ?  How is your daughter doing in the church choir group ?   They also tend to react negatively to atheists if they have stronger views.

 Mosts theists belong to category above ,many are inherently convinced of the spirituality and experience it now and then , few experience it daily , even fewer experience it very well , some still fewer live in it continuously.

 Now you guys may say , so what are you trying to say ?

What I am trying to say. Spirituality or religiousness needs more analysis from your end , rather than blind refutations.

I also dont deny that there are bad in religion also as in other fields. Some egotist religionists also come in way of research. There are also bad elements who may promise magic and healing . So I am saying you can go for issue based arguements where such impediments come up, rather than going for a standard refutation for all guys. Lastly the proof of god refutations and arguements may work only on a doubter who is borderline case and may fall into the atheist side. Rest will ignore or treat with disdain (as I had done and so the same led to some heated words , and even Deludedgod's research didnt work)

You want to help end religion?  Be prepared to do that over 4 billion more times.