Trying to Collect my Scattered Thoughts
Well, this isn't an official response to much of anything, but I wanted to at least throw a little update out there.
First of all, living with twenty thousand thoughts and ideas running around my neuronal network constantly is frustrating, exhilirating, and exhausting. There are twenty articles to which I want to respond, thirty different ways to track and promote my progress, contact lists to be exported/imported, stats to assess...you get the drift. O_O
An amusing development is the three (?) threads about our ads at Democratic Underground. Unfortunately, two have been archived and one is in a donors only section, so I wasn't able to invite them over here for a nice healthy debate on the definition of pornography, the objectification of women, and maintaining rational and effective marketing. No matter what our individual desires or wishes are concerning the more...primitive... parts of our brain, I feel that in order to achieve our goals as a group, it would behoove us to work with those inclinations rather than against them. Statistics support that theory, and I would even argue that part of our success would fall into that category as well. (Not trying to sound conceited--just saying...) Of course, most of you already know this since it has already been beaten to death on the forums.
The other amusing thing is that Laura Ingraham, who had Brian on her show last year and was absolutely, insanely, mortifyingly rude and dishonest, has a new piece of sh...oops...book out and talks about Brian and us godless heathens for about three pages. (p. 294-6) I don't think she realizes that she manages to acheive the elusive self-pwn in the transcript of the small parts of the interview during which Brian's mic wasn't muted. She says, "I believe love comes from God..." and Brian responds with a much more plausible scenario--that it is a combination of natural selection and societal pressure, essentially--and she goes on to say, "Why do we have Good Samaritans?" (p. 296) Hey Laura, try opening that bible some day! The whole point of that parable was that the only person who stopped to help the man who had been robbed and beaten was not only a heathen, but an enemy of the man that he helped. The moral of the story is that the Samaritan was a good person despite all of that, and that claiming an affiliation with a particular religion does not make you a paragon of virtue. I still stand by the name she was given from that day--which isn't really suitable for reprint here. (F.S.C. *Lolz*)
Anywho...tomorrow I will take on His Holiness, former Nazi sympathizer and torturer of theology students everywhere (you try reading two hundred pages on the eucharist and transubstantiation--I'm bitter), Joseph Ratzinger, aka Pope Benedict. I'm already excited.
Later,
Kelly
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Hambydammit wrote: Huh?
Huh? Did I miss something? Are we on about Kelly's boobs again?
No, I wasn't on about Kelly's boobs. Kelly talked about campaign strategy and the statistical value of a campaign appealing to base desires and I was speaking to that point, simply saying that just because 'sex sells' doesn't mean it's the only or even best adverising strategy, moreover provocation can be divisive as to hinder a campaigns success while there are other angles that don't suffer this malaise.
If we are talking about that, then will someone please explain to me what it is about good looking people that doesn't sell? I mean, all the marketing I've ever seen in my life shows that people overwhelmingly prefer products that depict attractive people enjoying them. I'm still at a complete loss as to how RRS is doing anything other than using our most attractive member for posters.
It's not that you're using Kelly's image to promote yourselves, (btw brian, rook and greydon have a fair bit going in the looks department too in their own ways) it's how you're using it which is the point of interest. it's up to you guys, ultimately, of course. I am only offering up my opinion that you might be limiting your brand too much.
Quote:It seems calculating and undermining of the alleged compassion of the RRS message to play statisical odds against the sensitivities of a demographic in your target outreach.So, you'd rather us ignore demographics, and not figure out the best way to market our idea? Remind me not to hire you for my businesses.
Um ... Hamby, my suggestion is that you are already ignoring demographics, furthermore, how you don't get that my whole post is directed at figurng out the best way to market your idea is beyond me. I'm baffled. Where do you get any of that from? You wouldn't hire me? Your loss.
When did it become a mandate that only atheists are held to the standard of not being calculating, or using demographics to our advantage?
What advantage? What demographic? The campaign says believe in god? we can fix that? what demographic is that aimed at? What does a wide angle of Kelly's DD's have to do with their interest in your brand?
That ad in its current form is pulling and pushing with the same hand? the message is split down the centre and one half has little or nothing to do with the other. The Tagline Believe in God? targets the market in a general demographic of believers, does the image target believers too? Only if you're trying to provoke them.
So then the ad, pulls the god believer in, insults their intelligence with 'we can fix it' then compounds it all by an image which can be construed as another direct attack on their sensibility.
If the aim of the ad is to push believers away from RRS and into the ready waiting arms of congregational empathy then thats the right way to do it. Go for it.
Quote:I realise provocation is a popular tool of rhetoric in western culture but I think it's exponentially overrated when it becomes your only, or even your most favoured brand image tool.If we're not talking about Kelly, what in the world are we talking about? Brand Image is related to the perceived integrity of the product, of course. Atheists are the most reviled group in America. We are already perceived lower than lawyers and Muslims (you know, those people we're at war with) as political candidates. For comparison, imagine a Japanese person running in World War II against an atheist. Who do you think would win?
So you are not injecting the war mentality into your advertising, it's there in spite of you.... right.
What, exactly, could we do that wouldn't be perceived as bad? If we're open and honest about our beliefs, we're attacked for being arrogant and pushy.
Of course your point is valid, (my above comment is jokingly intended) and there's very little you can do that won't be criticised simply because you are atheists. You guys have no choice but to campaign in unfriendly districts, and for the moment, that's not going away. However, what you can do which won't add to the prejudice unecessarily, is at least worth considering.
[ quote]
If we use an attractive spokesmodel, we're accused of using sex to sell atheism.
As I said, I'm not talking about this at all. I'm a blonde blue eyed size 10 E cup FWIW, I'm not going to betray the sisterhood, Kelly is beautiful and smart, and she makes an excellent front for RRS. My question was to wether Kelly was right that appealing to sexuality as an advertising tool was wise in the RRS campaign, I brought up some counterpoints.
Just out of curiosity, Eloise, what do you think is the most non-controversial thing we could market, that would also attract enough attention to become the number one atheist site in America?
That's not a rhetorical question. I'd like to hear your answer.
The themes you guys already use aren't innately controversial. The extraneous controversy arises when the coupling of target messages kill the synergy. For example "Freeing the world" coupled with "mind disorder of theism" is a mixes liberation with denigration, they cancel each other out at best. (i notice you guys don't use that one anymore, but this notion is still relevant to the ad at the DU).
I posted the link to the socially responsible branding article not because I don't think RRS is socially responsible, but because when your branding image leans perpetually controversial it only makes a wilting violet of your socially responsible edge; it is also, IMO, too calculating (ie lacks warmth and creativity) an approach.
Forgive me, but this idea of attracting atention is so 80's, the approach that works on these later generations is to tap into the collective consciousness of your target group and harness the synergy of already existing memes. There are numerous uncontroversial memes that you can harness in today's world, there is a massive religious war going on that most americans think is terrible which you can tap into. The religious right strong-arming america into power brokerage that hurts the average citizen, is another pool of synergy that RRS can tap to bring people to the table of the argument over god here. With the current campaign the RRS is only linked to these collective memes indirectly, where otherwise you could link directly to them and recieve a share in the attention that they are already getting.
If you're going to advertise at the democratic underground, BTW a socially responsible political edge would be far more effective than invoking a second tier political controversy. The RRS has an ally in the DU synergy which goes begging when the ad campaign focuses on alienation.
To tap into a political collective mind you need a political angle, Global Warming is an angle that would work at the DU, how doesthe RRS stand on the GWB admins refusal to ratify Kyoto? the war budget? Faith based initiatives? Use these issues to leverage the synergy of the question the RRS asks about the future of America, what is theocracy doing to the world, the people? Focus directly on it, that's my suggestion.
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oh kelly, always
oh kelly, always keep your work fun, anything else seems unhealthy, go laughing all the way, so that we can learn to better laugh too ! JOY to the world ... laughing from indignation,... and making time for riding sea doos ... abolish work , do 12 beers, then piss on the pope.
Mabey you'll like this,http://www.laweekly.com/news/features/virgin-whore/165/
Atheism Books.
I'm quite certain His
I'm quite certain His Holiness was unable to sleep last night in dread of your ferocious onslaught.
"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II
Admittedly, I don't spend
Admittedly, I don't spend much time on the forums here (or anywhere else for that matter), but I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about when you say:
"No matter what our individual desires or wishes are concerning the more...primitive... parts of our brain, I feel that in order to achieve our goals as a group, it would behoove us to work with those inclinations rather than against them. Statistics support that theory, and I would even argue that part of our success would fall into that category as well. (Not trying to sound conceited--just saying...) Of course, most of you already know this since it has already been beaten to death on the forums."
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The concept of using
The concept of using semi-provocative and/or sexual imagery in ads/videos/the site, etc...It's been discussed a gazillion times here. You could see the ads themselves in the DU.com threads.
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In a utopian word it would
In a utopian word it would be nice if dictators, which is what the Pope is, the Vatican is it's own country....in a utopian world, he would have the guts to face the people he is trashing and say it to our face and debate us. But what do you expect from intelectuall cowards?
I also find it telling that these people who become Pope do the same thing as Hollywood actors by changing his name. At least with actors you know they are acting and they dont pretend to be anything but actors. GO GET EM KELLY, he doesnt stand a chance.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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An ad at DU was my introduction to atheist movement
I've been an athiest for over 20 years, but did not think about it much.
I saw an ad at DemocraticUnderground.com (DU) for "The God Who Wasn't There", ordered the film, opened the package not expecting much, and was bowled over by the film. I decided to follow up by reading "The End of Faith", checking out books by Robert M. Price, and Earl Doherty, and found Reg Finley's "Infidel Guy" show, where I watched RRS form out of the void, beginning with something called the "Book of Sapient".
And then came "The God Delusion", Dennett, the Blasphemy Challange, the War on Christmas, the whole shebang...but it all started for me with an ad on Democratic Underground. Just thought folks might want to know...
kelly wrote:
JMHO Kelly, but I find I don't agree that it behooves your cause at all. It seems calculating and undermining of the alleged compassion of the RRS message to play statisical odds against the sensitivities of a demographic in your target outreach. I realise provocation is a popular tool of rhetoric in western culture but I think it's exponentially overrated when it becomes your only, or even your most favoured brand image tool.
advice, offered with the kindest possible intention please read and consider:
http://newsblaze.com/story/20071024115605tsop.nb/newsblaze/NEWSWIRE/NewsBlaze-Wire.html
PS: I know you guys are small, but cogitate the principles herein anyway, see what you come up with.
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Eloise, I can see how you
Eloise,
I can see how you might feel as if that article is of importance to us. I'm having a hard time finding how we're really working in contrary to the points being made in that article. Which I agree with.
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Huh? Did I miss something?
Huh? Did I miss something? Are we on about Kelly's boobs again?
If we are talking about that, then will someone please explain to me what it is about good looking people that doesn't sell? I mean, all the marketing I've ever seen in my life shows that people overwhelmingly prefer products that depict attractive people enjoying them. I'm still at a complete loss as to how RRS is doing anything other than using our most attractive member for posters.
So, you'd rather us ignore demographics, and not figure out the best way to market our idea? Remind me not to hire you for my businesses.
When did it become a mandate that only atheists are held to the standard of not being calculating, or using demographics to our advantage?
If we're not talking about Kelly, what in the world are we talking about? Brand Image is related to the perceived integrity of the product, of course. Atheists are the most reviled group in America. We are already perceived lower than lawyers and Muslims (you know, those people we're at war with) as political candidates. For comparison, imagine a Japanese person running in World War II against an atheist. Who do you think would win?
What, exactly, could we do that wouldn't be perceived as bad? If we're open and honest about our beliefs, we're attacked for being arrogant and pushy. If we promote other atheists, we're accused of being commercially motivated. If we use an attractive spokesmodel, we're accused of using sex to sell atheism.
We have an atheist charity website. We promote atheist authors. We work with Margaret Downey, for FSM's sake! Has anyone you've heard of done more for the atheist cause in the last twenty years? Every one of the mods is donating at least their time. Many of us donate our money. This is being run on an amazingly small budget, primarily because everyone who is involved knows how honest and open RRS is about everything it does, and is willing to donate their resources. If we were less open, we'd have to have a much bigger budget.
Just out of curiosity, Eloise, what do you think is the most non-controversial thing we could market, that would also attract enough attention to become the number one atheist site in America?
That's not a rhetorical question. I'd like to hear your answer.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
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Sapient wrote:
Hi Brian,
That's because I'm not by any means saying that you are working in contrary to those principles, just that the brand image of RRS might be hurting when your campaign doesn't express the core social conscience of the brand.
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Quote: That's because I'm
This makes me feel better.
Could you please explain exactly what you feel is:
The core social conscience of RRS Brand?
The image you believe to be contrary to th CSC?
How, exactly, you think the image is contrary?
I'm not trying to be confrontational. I'm really curious, because I have always felt that we're doing a pretty fair job of representing exactly what we stand for, and I'm having a hard time understanding what you mean.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Eloise wrote: JMHO Kelly,
And to whom exactly are you referring? Our target outreach is people, typically young(ish), who can see through the shtick to the actual content. Part of that involves being able to rationally analyze our attitudes towards sex and women. More broadly, people who are that easily offended probably wouldn't like it here anyway. Next I'll be getting emails about how being a stripper is degrading and I should quit my job so as not to offend anybody and that I can't say the word "cunt" because some women don't like it.
Also, what part of an advertising campaign is not calculated? Calculation is the key to any successful ad, and if you read the threads to which i linked, you'll see that the majority of people who came to the site liked it and understood why we would create an ad like that. Those are the people we want on board. Not the ones who think that ad was "offensive". Puh-leeze.
I understand that you aren't trying to be rude, and it's fine for people to offer advice. I just hope that our decisions are given the same respect when we agree to disagree.
I don't see what that article had to do with us--it seemed to be more about social responsibility (ie environmental impact, etc) than ads. I also haven't seen Abercrombie and Fitch go out of business since their catalog went soft-porn.
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