I getting pretty tired of hearing about wafergate myself however while I have nothing but love for you personally Rook, I think you may be setting yourself up for a textbook response here.

The Catholic Church holds that the host only contains the real presence when it is in the form in which is was concentrated.  Therefore when digestion reduces the host, Christ's presence is no longer maintained.  This is why, in the Mass, the priest cleanses the chalice, etc. with water so that the remaining host fragments dissolve - ensuring precious baby Jesus isn't stuck in a bunch of crumbs on the altar until the cleaning lady breaks out the dust rag and vacuum. 

I think this additional fact makes the belief even more ridiculous but nevertheless I think it's the response you're going to get.

I am aware of that.  You recall I was considering the priesthood before my deconversion.  However, I don't think Cory knows that.  After all, if he did, would he really be up in a tizzy?  I think he (and other Christians) assume Christ is always in the wafer, which is why they are pissed off about it in the first place.  If they knew it was a wafer beforehand, and understood this part of the dogma, do you really think that it would matter?

Even if you accept that desecrating the wafer is wrong, which I am not saying it is, you also have to consider the position Myers holds. He is a biologist. So tell me, how does desecrating a communion wafer make him unfit to be a biologist?

yes, i did know you were considering the vocation however i also know personally that once you start thinking for yourself you begin to think (surprise, surprise) rationally and the argument you present is clearly the rational way of thinking about this.

that being said i actually think knowledge of the full belief is more of a cause for uproar.  i mean, technically, the host and it's new best friend (a.k.a. one rusty nail) are currently still residing in PZ Myers' trash can.  or wait, has he taken the trash out already?  i'm surprised that individuals who truly believed in the real presence would not be spending their time filling out applications to be trash collectors so they could rescue their precious Lord rather than filling every media venue with tears.

If Jesus was real and was really God, couldn't he just leave the wafer rather than be stuck in whatever unpleasant situtation somebody stuck one in? This whole idea is so absurd it is shocking people actually believe in it. Could you imagine if someone demanded that any professional that threw out uneaten spaghetti be fired because it contains the FSM's presence until eaten?

in terms of their teaching - no, it's part of his "sacrifice."

So then wasn't PZ Meyers just helping to do Jesus' work?

Well Matt, if you want to go with that argument all of us are helping to do Jesus' work with every 'sin.'  After all, he already 'paid' for our sins so we might as well get every last dime out of the crucifixion.

One needn't believe in transubstantiation or any other part of Christian/Catholic teaching to think PZ made an ass of himself with this stunt.

I don't; I do.

Okay, where do you think he made an ass out of himself? 

What do you mean by that?  Let's not forget that the Catholic side started this entire media-frenzy by overreacting when Cook initially failed to consume the host during Mass.  I think PZ did an excellent job - I loved how in that specific blog the 'desecration' was treated like an after thought - as it should be.

There is a world of difference between forthrightly stating one's opposition to or ridicule of a given religion (or all of them) and PZ's "cracker" stunt.

Over at Andrew Sullivan's blog, a priest summed the matter up so well I will simply link it:

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/07/religious-bigot.html#more

I will defend PZ's free speech rights without hesitation, but to my atheist eyes his "cracker" challenge is exactly the kind of witless and puerile stunt he wrongly accused the Danish Mohammed cartoonists of.

In light of the "cracker" affair, Myers' by-the-numbers Politically Correct take on the infamous cartoons is very revealing:

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/02/poxridden_houses.php

When it comes to Catholics, PZ seems positively spoiling for a fight and happy to go out his way to offend and provoke them - which, let me be clear, he has the absolute right to do.  But then he appears to bend over backwards to be understanding and sympathetic to violently intolerant Muslims.

I'm beginning to wonder whether his outspoken and terrific advocacy of secularism and science is principled and unconditional... or subject to the diktat of MultiCulturalist ideology.

Dude...IT WAS A WAFER.  If Catholics are so deluded that they can't get that, they have every right to be ridiculed and made fun of, and should have their wafers crucified as many times as PZ or anyone sees fit to.  It was a wafer.  Get with it.

I don't know...

People who use violence to remove an occupying force from their country with the blessing of their religion.

vs.

People who use violence to defend a cracker with the blessing of their religion.

tough call...

Yes, it is very revealing. It reveals that Myers can have a nuanced understanding of a situation. On one hand, he decried the stereotypical representation of Muslims in the cartoons, likening it to any racially-prejudiced statement. On the other, he ranted against the religious foundation of the reaction, and the reaction itself.

Myers's act was itself void of stereotype or prejudice. He nailed a cracker to a board. He didn't draw a cartoon of a bunch of KKK-hooded, swastika-wearing idiots worshipping a cracker, which would be more analogous to the Danish cartoons.

Rook, of course it's a wafer. That's not the point. And I think you know that. Re-read the Sullivan 'blog link, please.

No, you missed the point.  In no way does desecrating a a wafer make PZ Myers look like an ass.  I think you're just projecting here.  The fact that PZ also threw out a copy of the God Delusion was symbolic and profound.  Apparently the profundity of the incident is lost on those without the will to think beyond a blog post.

The Mohammed cartoons have exactly WHAT to do with "people who use violence to remove," etc?

Also, what violence has Myers been subjected to? He received some email threats which he promptly turned over to the cops - as well he should. Those responsible will face the consequences - as well they should. How is this remotely comparable to the level of menace and violence brought by Muslims across the world in response to the cartoons?

Clowns like Bill Donohue have no authori-TAH whatsoever in the Catholic Church. Every single Catholic cleric and official responding to this has been forthright in his defense of Myer's free speech rights no matter what they think of his actions. Shall we review the position of Muslim leaders around the world and see if they fare as well? What do you imagine we'll find?

FYI, PZ mentioned on his blog today that he'll be debating Ray Comfort over the radio.  Get those bananas in your holsters.

You cannot have nuance without getting the basic facts right to begin with. Myers either doesn't know or doesn't care about the origin of the cartoons and the motives of the artists and the newspaper involved. His misrepresentation of the cartoons themselves borders on the hallucinatory.

Myers has bought into the absurd notion that criticism of Islam is equivalent to race prejudice. Islam is a religious, not a racial or ethnic identity. THERE IS NO ISLAMIC RACE. You'd think a biologist would understand this, but Myer's "nuance" goes no further than noticing that the violent theo-fascists are members of a - let's all say it together, now - "a poor and oppressed underclass" (his exact words).

Judging people by their victim/oppressor category assignment rather than their actions is textbook PC Leftism, hence my calling out Myers on those grounds. He writes that he is "conflicted" but the "conflict" arises from the his own cognitive dissonance. Myers' political ideology requires him to see violently intolerant Muslims as victims who are lashing out - however misguidedly - instead of as oppressors . Sure, they may be attacking free speech but the attack is in self-defense because ultimately, the larger Danish society and culture are to blame for provoking them. 

It would be, had the Danish cartoons contained such images. They do not. Take a look.

The cartoons, in keeping with the theme, simply feature Mohammed depicted for various editorial purposes. Some make "jihad" references; some criticize the Islamic treatment of women. One of them simply has Mohammmed standing in a field. Two of them, in fact, criticize the newspaper itself for soliciting the cartoons.

The ball's in your court, Nigel. Please select which image you feel is analogous to "KKK-hooded, swastika-wearing idiots" or a Sambo-style caricature intended to depict all Arabic peoples - or all of any people. Of those which do feature Mohammed, please designate which you feel is not clearly intended as a depiction of a religious figure and comment on some aspect of the religion he founded.

Update (8/8/08)

The Religion of Peace strikes again! I look forward to PZ Myers' "nuanced" take on this. Another example of a "poor and oppressed underclass" driven to extremes, no doubt. When will the oppression of Others of Color by Random House end?!

Myer's equal-opportunity action was a follow-on; his original act and defense of it occasioned my remarks.

And my "will" is just fine. It's even notarized.

I think you all are missing an important point too: What would had happen to PZ if the Catholic Church were as powerful as in Inquisition times? He obviously would had been burnt at the stake. This case reveals that the catholic way of thinking which leaded to such outrages is still present and active in this XXI century. And as  former catholic and human being I found that very disturbing and scary. The only thing that help us is that the church is powerless... for now. THE CATHOLIC MIND SET HASN'T CHANGED AT ALL!

(Sorry for the poor english... all of you are doing an excellent work!)

1. The Mohammed cartoons are another excellent example - religious nut balls went ape with the blessings of their religion about ink on paper - the Catholics went ape with the blessings of their religion for a cracker.

2. The violence I was referring to was that practiced by those good catholics on the guy who tried to take the cracker out of the building.

3. Why do you need Catholic and Muslim religious leaders to tell you how to think?