I comepletely agree with you. I wish more us us had Sagan and Herbert's knack for popularizing science. By no means does it need to be "dumbed down," just written in different terms. Unfortunately, a lot of the topics theists want to argue about are really complicated. Things like abiogenesis (life from chemicle soup) and Big Bang cosmology are really, really complicated. Particularly where the Big Bang is concerned - we know precisely what was going on mere fractions of a millisecond after the singularity but have no way of explaining it in mid size terms. Things are just too weird at that point, and the parallel explanations we offer don't seem to satisfy.

Of course, that's only my experience with the theism arguments. I know a lot of the discussions on philosophy and biology are far too intense for the average reader, but I think a fair portion of us share a lonelieness in our respective sciences. We don't get to share ideas with others in our various feilds very often, and so some of that gets dumped here, there, everywhere.

  Maybe what we needis a pop-science area in Yellow-5's zone. A place to practice our science PR and see if we can't spark more interest in our respective fields. I don't think any one person is really smarter than anyone else, I think they haven't found the nspiration to really jump in and play, reasearch, and discover.

Quite right.  I think everyone would do well to remember that an individual may be a layman in one particular field but an expert in another.  I may be a little slow in biochemistry but can rattle off case law on many aspects of the issues discussed herein.

Unfortunately, there is a growth pattern to a person with increasing information.  That person may initially feel empowered to the point that the person displays a hubris or temerity that causes others to flee in disgust.  The same individual will eventually overwhelmed by the very volume of knowledge that exists to be known, even in a narrowly defined field.  Some semblance of modesty is imposed naturally onto such a person.

So, we must show patience with the newly empowered.  We must remind them that even an attorney can grasp physics if placed in a format like The Elegant Universe.  Finally, we must hold ourselves to the same conviction to make information accessible to all.

BGH, I could not be in greater agreement with you.

BGH, I have a somewhat mean, but fun game I play at parties sometimes. In big groups, I ask people what they do for a living. If anyone starts off with something like, "I'm the executive vice secretary in the department of human resources for a subsidiary division of a major... etc..." I stop them mid-sentence, and say, "No, no. I want to know what you do." After whittling their explanation down a bit, they'll finally get around to, "I guess I'm a paper pusher."

When they say that, I say, "Great! You're a paper pusher," and go to the next person and say, "So, what do you do?"

If everybody plays along, it relaxes everybody, takes away the cock-size competitions, and gets everybody into a mode where they're speaking as equals.

I think the same thing can be done with science to a certain degree, but at the same time, I think my brain went "flip" at least a hundred fifty times trying to read A Brief History of Time, and as far as I can tell, that is the dumbed down, layman's book.

What's particularly difficult in extremely technical areas is that it's difficult to describe something simple and common like, say, a seratonin uptake inhibitor, without getting into neurology really fast. Every third word in neurology needs a definition, and the definition assumes you took the 1000 level neuro class at college.

BGH, I know you know this. I'm mainly just spelling out my agreement. The flip side, of course, is that I really appreciate some of the more technical posts, since it's an easy way of avoiding onerous web searches for detailed info. I think both kinds of posts are quite useful and necessary. I suggest that careful forum selection can help a lot. If you're in the science section, you should be prepared to deal with science info. If it's in atheist/theist, maybe it can be more of a layman's conversation, with links to more technical science posts?

I agree Mustard, there are some topics that do not lend themselves well to being 'dumbed' down, but at least a concerted effor should be made to make these topics as understandable as possible.

I think this is an excellent idea. I think something like this here would be a great promoter of scientific understanding.

Exactly! This is one of the main points I was trying to make. No one can be well versed in all fields though many of us would like to have some basic understanding.

I have seen this occur, but I think passion and love for the topic being discussed should override arrogance and the poster would serve their arguments well to explain clearly for the layman.

Thank you Nero!

LOL. Hamby, I love you. You absolutely have a way of cracking me up. I am going to try this game, I have used similar tactics before but not this exact method. It sounds fun.

And this is understandable...

There are topics that are very difficult to steer away from technical terms, but at least a small effort should be made, don't ya think?

And..... I agree with this 100%. I love reading the technical works. I read technical science articles almost daily but, I do not think the overly complicated, jargon filled posts are always the best way to make an effective argument. We need to inspire more people actually show interest in science, once the spark is lit people will be more open to the technicalities.

I don't think this discussion is too far from the one about the best way to get fence-sitters to make the last logical step and give up believing in "faith as a virtue."

Many people believe that baby-stepping theists is the best way to go.  Get them to question just one tiny little thing, and then baby step them to the point where they see the big picture.  Others want to just blast away at the whole system.  I tend to lean towards the former approach, but I see the need for both.

That's why I think this board is such a great resource.  We have forums for both approaches, and posters from both sides of the fence.

Oh, and for the record, today my job was fixing toilets and finding leaks on ice machines.  Glamourous job, restaurant ownership...

Granted, I agree both approaches are needed, but I also think there should not be an effort to over complicate a topic. Just give the information and opinions in clear and concise language as possible.  

I'm with you.  I'll do my best to encourage it, especially in the non-science forums.

BGH - This is fantastic.  I think all of you make a great point.  A lot of the subjects that are covered here are complex and difficult to understand, especially if you've had little or no education in them. While it always should be encouraged to do a little self-educating on your own time, I find that I get a great deal of information from this forum and it's posters.  Whether or not I understand it is a different story.   

It can be intimidating to approach members that have a great deal of knowledge to ask questions.  It is equally frustrating to find yourself wading through a huge amount of complex information and becoming lost in the technical jargon of it all.  We are all here for a reason and many of us are trying to educate ourselves as much as possible.  To make the information a little more accessible and understandable would be very helpful.

I agree. There is little point in making an argument if one's intended audience cannot understand it. One must ensure that one's use of language is thus tailored accordingly.

There will, however, be times when it is necessary to explain something which is sufficiently complex as to make this difficult. That's where analogies and examples come in.

I have little time for people whose sole purpose seems to be to express their intellectual credentials as that's really just a variant of the Emperor's new clothes. If one can't say it in plain language then it's probably not worth saying most of the time.

Everyone has pretty much echoed my sentiments on this subject. 

There are many different types of intelligence and while I admire the hard work that goes into understanding and studying science, it is just not a subject that has ever held great interest for me.  When something is written in such a way that I have no hope of understanding it my interest level declines even further. 

There are people such as the ones mentioned in the OP that keep my interest in science alive.  The excitement for their fields of study shows in their writing because they want to share this information with everyone and so they should.  Nothing fosters interest in a subject better than an instructor who is dying to share that information with everyone.

Simply put, science should not be a secret held by the intellectually elite.

Ummmm, like bump for the FUCKING 'GODS'.....

Do you feel this is not done often enough, or for the most part the posters on this site do a good job of this? 

No and no.

Sorry, I do read the more involved posts and I gain some information but one of my issues is that when I encounter someone that doesn't know Big Bang from their own ass, I want to be able to deliver the information back in terms they will understand.

Yes, there are times when it is important to point to the more technical information, but the average person's eyes will simply glaze over and they will think I am part of the "science conspiracy". That i why both are so important.

Sheesh, let's face it - the reason Comfort and his ilk have any support is because they appeal to the lowest common denominator intellectually. "Hey look the banana fits my hand! It's a miracle!" If someone like me can refute that while staying a step above intellectually, thereby encouraging the listener to ask questions, then I stand a chance of at least weaning them off someone like Crazy Ass Comfort.

I am aware that I have an advantage in that I can ask BGH questions about science all of the time, but he never, ever makes me feel stupid regardless of how inane my question is and he always answers in such a way that I can think about the answer and then ask more questions as I absorb the new information.

Ok, rant over - that is my official .02 cents. LOL

{Edit - I hate typos}