A very poor analogy. Consider the following as better analogies. Going after Kent Hovind is like...

Going after a bee with a nuclear powered sledgehammer

Using airstrikes to fish

Discoursing with a goat on the nature of Quantum logic and the possible derivation of the empirical nature of things once held a priori.

Beating a potted plant at chess

I like the last one the best.

I was mostly referring to not so much the fact that he has ridiculous arguments that are easily disproven -- but moreso that RRS is "picking on the little guy." Bear in mind that I *AGREE* with the recent lashback re: the youtube stuff. I'm totally with you here.

But in general it just seems that Hovind and his ministry group are more or less a non-issue anymore. In his hey-day, he was *the guy* to go after, but now he's old news. Ken Ham (same initials, so the monogrammed sledgehammers, chess sets, and jet-fighters don't need to be re-branded ) and his organization are the "*the guy*" now. So why are we still going after Hovind? Dig what I mean?

We should be using our airstrikes, pimp chess skills, and nuclear-powered sledgehammers where they are most beneficial to our cause, and in today's battlefield, we're wasting our time (IMHO, the most scarce of resources) by blowing it on Hovind, as fun and entertaining as it may be. If Hovind died tomorrow it would not materially change the battlescape -- AiG is a much bigger, swarthier , and far more vocal opponent. So why aren't we going after them? I'm mostly just curious, not trying to be critical here.

Ken Ham is possibly a bigger hack and fraud than Hovind is, and more moronic (since Hovind was a scam artist). However, scientists, in the public field, never, ever give actual debate time or merit to creationism or intelligent design. There is a reason for this. I was informed by Richard Dawkins, who was informed by his mentor, the late Stephan Jay Gould (whose I opinion I give an enormous amount of respect) that such an endeavor is pointless. The general public, for the most part, cannot distinguish scientific theories by their merit. The very act of there being an actual debate between real scientists and these hacks gives the impression to the public that there is a real and actual debate going on in the scientific community, which of course is not true, in fact, it is complete nonsense. Hence, creationists do not care about losing debate in the public sphere, since, again the public has a very poor ability to judge science by its merits, all they care about is the presence, because, it gives them what Gould called the "oxygen of respectability". As long as we keep them firmly isolated outside the academic mainstream, the message sent is that the scientific community as a whole looks upon this movement with contempt. This, overall is a correct analysis. It is not mine, I wish to point out, it is Gould's. I cannot take credit for it.

Totally agree, on all counts.

 I've been considering this myself actually. I believe I read something to that effect from Dawkins (or it may have been Phil Plait actually). I've run through some different scenarios in my head, and the one thing that always nags at me as a potential problem is this:

The strategy of non-combatance as a means of not lending them credibility has worked so far, yes. But don't you think eventually there will come a time when ignoring the problem won't be enough to make it go away? I'm not saying that AiG *is* that problem, and perhaps debating them directly would be a bad idea, as mentioned previously. But the creationist movement, which may have dumb ideas, are shrewd tacticians. With AiG specifically, yes, they are a bigger fraudster than Hovind (who was just, arguably, horribly delusional) -- why not point that out? Why let lies stand? And why is it any better to fight Hovind?

I understand where Dawkins, Gould, Plait, etc are coming from -- it's like when parents/teachers tell a school kid to ignore the bully that's picking on them. You don't want to give them the attention they're seeking. But if the Bully keeps coming at you with bigger and bigger threats, eventually you HAVE to confront it, don't you?  And if that's the case, isn't it better to fight it while it's still smaller?

The arguments are all the same and people from all different parts of the internet have already debunked it. I think that there are bigger issues for them to focus on at this time.

I disagree -- I don't think their arguments are all the same, and as much as I would like to believe that all of their arguments have been debunked, that's only half-true -- their original arguments HAVE been, but then what they frequently do is get some "expert" to chime in with an overly-scientific explanation to sound official. My area of expertise is chemistry, so I can understand the rare times when they delve into that area, but Geology and Biology are a little more foreign (I get Bio a bit better than Geo tho).

 But again -- what are these "bigger issues?" The Hovinds? I really have to respectfully disagree that the Hovinds are any threat at all. Nearly all YEC groups have disavowed them for being conclusively debunked time and again, Kent's in jail for several more years, etc. The DMCA thing happened, it was addressed, and will (hopefully) soon be resolved. Then what? Now, there may indeed be bigger threats than AiG out there, but Hovind is not one of them.

If you haven't, go read some AiG content and see what I mean. Just read some of their summary content "Arguments we think Creationists should NOT use", or any of their "debunking" arguments. Read ANY one of those arguments and then read something by Hovind's group. I'm not saying that AiG is correct, because they're still full of steaming sith, but their arguments are way better sounding.

 http://answersingenesis.org/home/area/qa.asp  <-- go there and pick your poison. You'll see what I mean.

Could you change the title of this thread? It's deceitful...

Apologies, Brian -- thanks for the video links.

I should have phrased my question better, but I'm glad to see that there's at least some action towards their group. Have you (or Kelly, or any of the other "core" members) had any direct contact with Ken Ham or his legion of idiots? Do you feel there's an organization that's a bigger menace than AiG? They seem to be the "Umbrella Corporation" that overshadows the rest of the smaller organizations.

I might be mistaken, but didn't Hovind's people start it?

I disagree on for two reasons:

1. It is important.  Hovind shouldn't be able to walk all over the RRS just because he isn't the Pope.

2. I believe it does attract people to *this* site. 

"I might be mistaken, but didn't Hovind's people start it?"

You're *slightly* mistaken. Hovind's organization had a similar "Dinosaur fun park" on some property he owned down in Pensecola, FL. It was very similar, although much smaller and much lower-tech.  AiG has lately been trying to distance themselves from Hovind because they think he's a little nutty. (Imagine that!)
 

I disagree on for two reasons:

1. It is important.  Hovind shouldn't be able to walk all over the RRS just because he isn't the Pope.

2. I believe it does attract people to *this* site.

I address #1 above in one of my other replies. I *do* agree that the whole Youtube debacle should be handled in the fashion it was. Address the DMCA issue, make it public, show Hovind for the fraud he is. I have no disagreement there.

Your second point is likely quite true as well - and perhaps it is all partly for publicity and to rally people behind a common flag.

I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with though -- My original point wasn't that Hovind's attack on the RRS was a total non-issue (although I do think HE's "old news" as I said previously). My point was that we're chasing mice in the shade of an 800 lb gorilla. AiG is a WAY bigger (IMHO) threat than Hovind is, comparatively speaking. Initially, I wasn't aware that the RRS even really acknowledged AiG, until Brian posted those vids -- but even so. I'm not trying to be critical in a mean way, I really like the RRS and I think it's got a lot to offer. So what will it take for the RRS to really start hounding AiG? DMCA complaints? Debate challenges? 

 Again -- please don't see this as an attack on the RRS. I'm not antagonizing here, just a serious heart-felt inquiry.

Yes, our science co-host Mike/Yellow#5 beat up on an AIG rep for about 2 hours one night on Joe Wyrosteks show "What do you Believe?"  He was supposed to make the audio available, if someone finds it please post it here, we have the audio here as well and haven't hosted it yet. Subscribers will have access at somepoint.

I personally don't feel threatened by AIG.  I feel they have very little impact in their area.  You may see their impact as great, I personally think they've been largely unsuccesful. 

 However as a team, there are those that think this group should be talked about, and so it has.   There have been many people working hard to make the website project to debunk the museum happen.  Got $400 a month to pay for it's project coordinators time?  She just got laid off.  I'm being facetious as I try to put in to perspective how hard it is to get all of these projects off the ground with limited resources.

 The Cali creationist museum is featured for a moment in our upcoming movie, and a trip was scheduled for the Kentucky museum although it is on hold for now per my suggestion that nobody should pay attention to or give a fuck about dumbfuck city... I mean the cretin museum and those that believe the moronic nonsense inside of it.

Thanks again, Brian -- that's exactly the response I was looking for.

 Is there anything I can do to help out with the website? I'm a Web Developer by trade (PHP / JS / Ajax). I don't have a LOT of free time available, but I would be willing to contribute some of it towards this end.

i disagree that is is a waste of time.  Before you edited the OP is said "we're wasting our time (IMHO, the most scarce of resources) by blowing it on Hovind."

Thanks for the clarifications of the origin though. 

I can understand where you're coming from.

I'm willing to accept a difference of opinion on this.  

(All things aside, I have to admit getting secret jollies from watching the RRS pwn the Hovind peoples.  

ditto.  although i have lost sleep at night a few times because i couldn't get the "you're a fucktard, aren't you  kent..." song out of my head. 

rofl! Indeed....

Do you happen to know who does all of the lyrical-wizardry in the background of the RRS compilation videos? Some of those lines are wicked nice!