Atheist/rationalists who smoke
Offline Smoking is linked to lung cancer and a host of cardiovascular and cerebrovascular disorders. Therefore, we can all agree that cigarette smoking is an irrational act? So why do atheists who champion reason and rationalism smoke? Isn't smoking cigarettes just as harmful as worshipping a fictional deity? Is it hypocrisy to point out the irrational claims of theists and then engage in an irrational act of lighting up and damaging your lungs? But then again, excesssively eating cheeseburgers and fries, porn addiction and watching mind numbing reality TV are are also irrational and can be damaging. And I love burgers, fries, masturbating to Jenna Jameson and watching the busty gals on Girls Next Door. I guess I too am an irrational rationalist? But what distinguishes me from theists is that I don't regard my actions as truth or dogma to be followed by others.
[mod edit: corrected title]
- Login to post comments
oh oh, let me try!
But it doesn't hurt anyone else!
edit:
And oh yeah, it makes me feel good!
Of coure you can't make the first statement about smoking (unless you only do it in your house) and many religious people claim it makes them feel good. And of corse porn isn't harmful.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
Damn. You're just so motherfucking clever.
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
I don't smoke.
Irrational maybe, but smokers don't worship the marlborough man.
My theory is that a lot of smokers start when they are young because they feel a need to "fit in" and be accepted, and if their friends encourage them to smoke, they find it hard to say no. Then, when they're older, they make up excuses to try to justify to themselves why it's okay that they haven't quit yet.
we accept increased risks all the time in order to experience benefits which one finds to be worth the risk...
I came up with what I think is a workable solution for smokers in a country with socialized medicine. Given that smokers will over a lifetime require more medical care than non smokers (this is an implicit assumption based on "cigarettes are bad for you", which is fairly well supported by research), they should pay for the health care they incur from their activities.
- make a conservative estimate of the amount of contingent health care a smoker will require during their life (better to underestimate than overestimate with this, imo).
- make a conservative estimate of the number of packs a smoker consumes in their "smoking life" (ditto).
- divide the dollar cost by the number of packs, giving a "morbidity tax" per pack.
- add that to the cost of a pack of cigarettes, and have that revenue go directly into the health care coffers.
Don't want to pay the tax? Don't smoke. Want to smoke? Sock some money away for the health care you may need later.
--
maybe if this sig is witty, someone will love me.
there is a pretty detailed conversation on this topic in this thread.
My question, even as a non-smoker, to those who criticize smokers:
Do you drive a car? If you do, why?
Driving a car is extremely dangerous - far moreso than smoking - and, assuming your vehicle is powered by fossil fuel, what comes out of it's exhaust is far more toxic than anything you're breathing-in from a cigarette. The benefits are driving are marginal at best, often created by a lack of cultural foresight and personal laziness and/or ignorance. If you commute from a suburb via automobile to your job in the city, you're putting yourself at far greater risk than even the most disgusting chain-smoking habit ever could and introducing far more pollution into the air everyone is trying to breathe than second-hand tobacco smoke could even dream of achieving.
Cars are more expensive - even after all the tobacco tax - to maintain, fuel and insure every month than a cigarette hait is to supply.
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
Fine. And, as a Canadian citizen living with socialized medicine, whose tax dollars go towards thousands of unecessary vehicle wreck victims a year, I demand the same tax be leveled at anyone who own and drive a personal automobile.
Or does that not work for you?
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
First, I don't smoke, never have, never even been tempted.
It is not necessarily irrational. It is a question of personal values, complicated by the addictive nature of smoking, which means quitting involves more than a recognition that it would ultimately be better for you.
Doing something that makes you feel pleasure is not irrational. If you are aware that the activity involve serious long term risks to your health, and continue to smoke, could be seen as giving more importance to immediate pleasure than longer term well-being, which is not necessarily irrational, but it is arguably a poor decision. Rationality doesn't really come into what things one likes and dislikes - I prefer the taste of macadamia nuts to peanuts - no intellectual reasoning required. We are not simply purely rational beings, that would make us equivalent to complex robots in the classic sense (I don't reject the possibility of closely modelling human consciousness in a sophisticated non-biological system, but that's another topic).
One may well also argue that one may well die tomorrow, so why forgoing short term enjoyment?
Finally, the addictive aspect means that a completely rational decision that one should quit is not so easy to act upon.
Any one irrational act from someone who champions rationality does not invalidate all their nominally rational decisions. It does mean they may be letting strong personal urges, desires, etc, overcome good reasons for not doing some particular activity. We are merely human...
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
I live away from the city.
1) my city's bus system blows.
2) Said bus system has mostly drunks/gang members on board.
3) It's drop off points and times are fucked.
4) My city doesn't have any other means of public transportation.
Oh and I'm going to look at the CDC or NIH for the stats of which is more dangerous.
Hmmm, you would need to add an extra tax for motorcycle riders, and drivers of sports cars right? Afterall, there is an increased risk of injury there.
I'm tired of this red herring. There's no way to get along in the US most places without driving and have any sort of normal life. Getting along without smoking is easy.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
Those Marlborough men are hot!!
Matt, like everything in life, owning a car is a choice. Disagree with me all you want - I live a perfectly normal life in Canada without a fucking personal auto or driver's license. Live in the city and ride a bike, or walk. Believe it or not, neither of these activities are bad for your health. My mother used to tell me the same thing while I was growing up; I just couldn't make it without a car or license.
It's a myth.
If you commute to work from a suburb, regardless of the pile of excuses you may have, you're doing far more damage to me than any smoker lighting-up in the same room.
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
Translation: I would have to share the bus with other poor, and some of these people are poor and/or (gasp!) black, and they don't even make those kinds of people sit at the back anymore, so I won't take the bus.
Thank-you, Cap'n. At least now I'm coming to understand where your curious worldview is spawned from.
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
The closest public transportation comes to me is about 12 miles away. It doesn't exist everywhere. Besides that one fucking car contributes very little polution -it's the combination of all of them. Modern civiliztion would collapse without cars/trucks. Fact is not everyone lives in a city. I can't afford to live by myself. Not only that, the cities around here are dangerous to enter. But one smoker in the same room is a serious health risk. Then there's grocery shopping - most buses, etc wont let you carry 10 bags of groceries with you.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
errrrrrr.. wut?
I never said anything about poor or black people.
Nice example of projection.
Oh BTW I'm not racists. I hate everyone equally.
What about bikes, Matt? Have they put any of those together in your area yet?
How about your feet / legs? Are they in working condition?
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
I can't walk 10+ miles which is the closest anything is. When I was working I was too exhausted at the end of a shift to walk a block, let alone a long distance.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
- How can you tell that said persons are drunk and/or gang members? Are you telepathic?
- These 'fucked-up' drop off points I presume you don't like because they're in the poorer areas of town?
Perhaps that is a bit of projection, given I just had a conversation with someone about 'asian gangs', and how apparently just about anything gathering of asians should be seen as a potential gang.
I doubt it, though. You've basically just stated half of your reasons for not using public transportation being socioeconomic diversity of the persons using said transit (if not their race. And I still think you also implied that). I've heard these arguments before, and they tend to all come from the same people.
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
Oh and I only drive when neccesary. Just to school or work and the occasinal trip to the mall.
The one cigarette I just had contributes very little to my declining health - it's the combination of all of them.
you really don't "get" the analogy here?
You seriously can't tell when people are drunk? You need to get out more. I don't drink either BTW.
See below for gangs
I mean the bus station is a gang area. How do I know? I read the fucking paper. The cops are there all the time.
I'm sorry but 'gangstar' is not a socioeconomic class. Should they put it on the census?
Regardless, I don't like people regardless of drunkness, or willingness to stab you with a shaved down rusty spoon. Those points merely amplify it.
Back the truck up.
What the fuck is that suppose to mean?
Matt, this may blow your mind:
No, it's not an alien spacecraft. They actually make these here on Earth. They're called 'bicycles', and they can be used for long-distance commuting at a comfortable rate of speed.
...Woah...!
I know what you're thinking: I somehow managed to capture an acid trip on film, right?
Actually, Matt, no - this is called a 'city', and they are also things we really have here on Earth. You see, the concept of these 'cities' is that you live in one, and then no service is an extremely far commute for you, so you spend less time + energy to get the things you want / need.
Now, this is going to really shock you, so I hope you're sitting down while you read this:
+
=
Zero need for a personal automobile!
There it is! Your magical formula for de-car-ifying your life. (I'll admit, it does hinge on my assumption that both bicycles and cities are available for your use in America).
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
However not everyone can do without a car, a family of 4 (husband, wife, and 2 kids) usually can't on a normal basis, lets say a typical canadian family, that has 1 boy and 1 girl, doing sports, say hockey in the winter, soccer in the summer for the kids, now for the parents, it's ok to go to and from work, using the subway/bus, sure, however depending where you live, you might need to take the kids to school, and school buses don't go to everyone as it is dependent on you location to the school, and your not going to let a 5 - 9 or walk year old ride the bus to school by themselves unless it's a school bus, or let them walk a fair distance, my high school was over 3 kms away, and I wasn't eligable for school bus, since you have to be 4 kms away, so you need a car there while you go to the GO station (ontario of course) to take the train/subway to work. Plus groceries for 4 isn't a small thing to take on the bus, or on a bike, or just plain walking there, unless of course your shopping lets say every 2 days to make it easy, either that or take a cab, which might as wel take a car right?. So now the sports side, having a child of own, i can say that hockey is quite demanding sport, especially during the regular season, you have to take the kids from one arena to another, you could take the bus, but I guarantee you will get tired of hauling the equipment on the bus, and your sure as hell not riding your bike i winter at -10 degrees with your kid in tow plus the equipment. You could take a cab...however that gets really really expensive really fast. Same applies to soccer, your not going to bike it, bus it or subway it with your kid from city to city, or one end of the city to the other.
Now when I was single and lived in downtown Toronto, I didn't need a car, I could just walk, take a cab/subway/train to my destination since most of the areas I went to was with in 20 minutes of where lived. Now however I live in Brampton, just 15 minutes away from Toronto, part of the GTA and suburbia, to go from the North end of Brampton to the South End of brampton via bus, can take up to 2 hours and 3 bus changes depending from where you going from...... in a car....10 minutes, on a bike 1 hour or so, now being a family man, that's just that makes no sense, my wife works in Mississauga, via bus from where we live is 2 1/2 hours during the rush hour, my daughter has to be picked up at school at 5 PM, now my wife gets off of work at 4 PM, and leaves from work around 4:15 - 4:20 PM, you can do the math here, how late would she be picking her up via bus?? Now with a car even in rush hour she can be there with 5 minutes to spare. Makes more sense to have a car, I would pick her up, but me and my truck can't always be there since I own my own company and tend to work until 8 PM usually, or have jobs that can be done after hours only.
Lets not start with living outside of the suburbia and downtown, just 5 minute car drive north of brampton, the closest grocery store is about 10 kms away and only the GO bus service to get there, and that isn't every 15 minutes. There are many reasons why people need cars, now they all don't need gas guzzlers, however not everyone can do without a vehicle in our society. As much as many people incorrectly believe that EVERYONE can do without a car.
It means I think you're a bigoted racist, Cap'n.
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
Oh and I don't live in Toronto because it is expensive to live there, my house that I bought in Brampton for $220,000, 3 bed rooms, 1800 square feet, oh and enough parking for 2 cars plus a trailer with a skyjack on it in the safest city in the world, according to the WHO, SAME house with enough parking in Downtown Toronto, $550,000 in an ok but could be better area. Plus with my work I need a truck anyways, and if we lived in Toronto my wife would need a car to get to work and drop off my daughter for school anyways, so yeah, might as well be living in brampton away from downtown core in a better neighborhood, with a cheaper priced house.
O RLY?
You're the one that associated gangs with race, not me.
There are many disorders that cause a person to mimic drunken behavior, and frankly, many times a person will see a homeless or otherwise disheveled other person on a bus and say, "There's a drunk," regardless of whether or not they're actuall inebriated.
*Yawn*
Dishonest garbage I've heard all before. 'This area of town is unsafe!' 'That area of town is full of gangs!'
It's all ethnically-charged libel.
By 'gangster', I presume you don't mean prohibition-era Al Capone types?
And if not, what do you think is the prime mover behind the formation of gangs? Who do you usually find in modern gangs? Wealthy businessmen? Housewives? School teachers?
It's called 'connecting the dots', Cap'n.
(Oh, wait. I forgot. You're a theist).
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
last time I checked, many GANGSTARS in canada don't come from the POOR areas, oddly enough, especially in Ontario, they come from the middle class, there are many from the poor economic status but there are even more from middle class families. Plus I second Captain here, where was he being racists? Because he never said niggers, spics or wops or anything like that, he said he read the papers about there being gangs in there, where was he being racists?
Then the last time you checked, you were reading garbage. Try checking a book with actual facts in it next time (Hmaby has already recommended a few).
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
Oh sorry I leave my psychology diagnostics degree at home.
I don't think the cops go there to gather in a circle and sing 'Peace to the world'
This has nothing to do with you but:
Blow me Hamby.
I know better, I DEAL With the kids DIRECTLY, most of them come from MIDDLE CLASS families, both parents work, have a nice house, they join because they are bored, or because they want to feel as being part of something, and alot of them to be part of ANYTHING and gangs is a way because it's exciting to them. I help on a program to help kids not get involved and to get out of gangs and leave that lifestyle behind, IN CANANDA, IN ONTARIO it's made up a lot of middle class kids. If you like to correct me, please show me the kids I deal with come from POOR economic families, because from what I have dealt with they sure don't live in poor neighborhoods. So please get your head out of your ass on this one, and you didn't answer the question, where was cpt being racist?
First of all, let me do something against my own principles...agree with Corporal Pineapple. I have ridden the bus in central Phoenix, Arizona...the sixth largest city in the USA. It is simply awful. There are drunks and people completely spun on meth on the buses. In central Phoenix, they have gangs. The gangs in that area are predominantly hispanic, and they also ride the bus. They are definitely not the only people on the bus, nor are they a huge minority. Sitting on the bus next to drunk people that have pissed themselves and smell like a disgusting cocktail of vomit, urine, and Popov vodka does not make me think public transportation is an equal form of transportation than riding in my own personal vehicle. There is a definitive quality difference in the two experiences. That being said, I am all for more public transportation that is affordable and accessible. I am not saying the bus is simply unusable for those reasons, just that if you have never owned a car or lived in a system where it is sometimes necessary to have one, then it is harder for me to take your position seriously.
As for the original post, I think some people take the idea of rationality way too far. Rationality doesn't equate to a system of making the most rational choice for every single decision in our life with respect to our health, finances...etc. To do this would make humans calculating automatons that didn't rely on emotion to make choices as well. Most people weigh both when making decisions. When it comes to activities that are pleasurable and emotionally pleasing...like trash tv, overeating, and cigarettes, we usually know the choice is not the best for us, but it makes us happy momentarily.
Momentary happiness, pleasure seeking or more aptly "instant gratification" is biological. I don't know if you have ever seen the discovery channel special about animals doing drugs, but it verifies that humans are not the only species to succumb to pleasure for pleasure's sake, nor is the rest of the animal kingdom immune to the forces of addiction. I feel like some people think that making decisions in any aspect of life just means plugging in this magical rationality equation and the universally correct answer will pop out at us. Rational decisions are usually best, but some people that smoke know all the risks, weigh the disadvantages, and still say it is worth more to me to smoke and be happy, than to not smoke and participate in an activity that they thoroughly enjoy, even if it will cause them serious health problems in the future. Also, things like addiction often supercede rational justification for quitting harmful activities, so the question you pose can't be broken down into a dichotomy of simply rational/irrational.
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” Yoda
Oh, look at that. Now you've ran out of anything to say, and are retreating back to your typical 'dive in and make sarcastic comments and duck out again' strategy.
For the record, though, I was alluding to your theism being the likely culprit for you being unable to make logical associations (otherwise known as 'connecting the dots'), rather than the sole and root cause for evil in the world.
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
Fine, I'll translate:
It would take an M.D to diagnose someone with a mental illness. I don't know the symptoms of Mental Illnesses.
Oh and what illness has the sypmpton of 'booze breath' while holding a bottle?
They go there to deal with the gangs dipshit. I mean, you know, the cops respond to stabbings and assaults. But only after the second verse.
To connect what dots? The fact you're a fucktard and like to make baseless accusations?
Yeah I got that
so, yeah... we were talking about smoking right?
Sorry Kevin, but the only posts in this thread that I noticed implying any kind of inherent association between gangs and either race or socioeconomic status came from you.
But, to move back one step on our list of tangents...
America:
Cities... check.
Bicycles... check.
Crazy drivers that deliberately run over bicyclists... check. (Though, this does seem to be more of a problem in some parts of the country than others.)
So it's fair game in your opinion, then, to go around arbitrarily labelling anyone who you think is acting like a drunk would act as a drunk, out of your own ignorance?
See: What I said about being unsurprised that such a statement would come from a theist.
Now I'm quite sure you're just lying. I don't know of a transit system up here, anyway, that lets people that smell like alchohol on board (and certainly no transit system allows open alchohol aboard).
Again, I way no way to verify or dismiss this claim, but I think I'm safe to bet that you're full of shit. I doubt that the police are there 24/7, and that the bus depot is a cauldron of discontent. No doubt the ones in the poor areas of town are vandalized and don't look the greatest, but I'm dubious that you're at such great risk when visiting one.
Again, I hear these claims every day, from people who blame everything under the sun on Edmonton's 'asian gang problem'. Of course, go figure, any time I've actually gone down to the Light Rail station or a bus depot... no cops, no malicious gang members.
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
Don't be an asshat. I can't ride a bike that far, I can't afford to move from my parents house - and I don't want to get shot so I won't live in a city. Seriously, you are trolling with this post.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
Oh right....
Anyway, my dad used to smoke. He always told me how bad it is and he tried his best to quit. He would always tell me how bad it was for him and how hard it was for him to quit.
Perhaps that's why. My Grandma used to smoke and she died from it.
I think you're a Theistist. And also a jackass
Hey jerk-off remember this topic?
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/13970
Yeah, I have issues too! Perhaps that's why I don't want to go on a bus full of people particullary drunks/gang memebers?
They put it in their packs (Since it's usually empty..)
I never fucking said they were there 24/7. All I said there are a lot of assualts/stabbings there. I guess everyone's a music critic.
Yearh, I thought so too... And for the record, I smoke, and all you sanctimonious wankers can kiss my ass. I smoke for the rational reason that it will take off the last ten years of my life, that is the dementia/diaper years, and I for one don't want to go through that. I want to die young and leave a beautiful corpse (or, more abtly, a wrinkled, smelly corpse with yellow teeth).
And when I quit smoking for two years, (three years ago) it was because of the incredably IRrational emotion that I was in love. In love with a non-smoking new ager who was convinced I was harming my spirit, by harming my body. For two years I did not smoke, and didn't miss it, but for completely IRrational reasons: love.
So maybe smoking is irrational, but so is alot of the fun stuff we do in life. Like having sex, lounging around doing nothing, posting endlessly on messageboards et.c.
And before you say having sex is rational, what rational purpose does it serve other than passing on your genes? And how many times have you had sex that didn't result in a baby?
What other purpose do you say? You like it? well, guess what, I like smoking, so there...
Well I was born an original sinner
I was spawned from original sin
And if I had a dollar bill for all the things I've done
There'd be a mountain of money piled up to my chin
Kevin at this point your showing ignorance, people are allowed to travel on the bus if they reek of alcohol, its part of the don't drink and drive initiative really, if your drunk, take a cab, bus or subway home but don't drive, and in the states (New York for example) you can drink on the bus, as long as you have a brown paper bag on the bottle. Now I guarantee many people would rather live in crime ridden Edmonton, than say Newark, which in 2006 had 428 murders, compare that to lets say Edmonton's 44 murders in 2005. So yeah get the numbers and wonder why people avoid certain things, like public transportation for example stateside. In California depending where you live you need a car to get around, Vista and Carlsbad, if you don't have a car your fucked, I walked 3 miles in Carlsbad with nothing but houses and not a single fucking store. As for the smoking yeah we are creatures of pleasure as well, not just rational thinking (had to add that for the original topic)
That's all well and good, except that it has the unfortunate side-effect of bothering every non-smoker who's unlucky enough to be downwind of you at the time... there are plenty of other ways to die that don't interfere with bystanders' ability to breathe.
You can say that again...
I don't take public transportation because of my wheelchair - which I think qualifies me for "biking" enough to personally overlook some (not all) of the environmental concerns. When my ex's car was broken I used to be so frustrated that he wouldn't just take the bus to work... after a few months of arguing over this, he finally admitted that he was concerned for his safety on the bus. I find it amazing how many people think that yet somehow think their automobile isn't setting them up for a carjacking in the same areas that they couldn't bus through.
[edit: however i do have a good friend that bikes everywhere - literally - and he tells me he's hit by a car about once a month.]