Atheist gender question
What is your theory why there are apparently so many more atheist males than females?
Obviously there has to be a solid, reasonable conclusion. Or is it a perceived misconception?
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
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I'd say perceived. Men tend to be more outspoken than women.
"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray
I think the first question should be "Do more women have a god belief than men?" After this we could perhaps determine if there are in fact more atheist males or if men or just more likely to be outspoken about their lack of belief.
In America, women are significantly more likely to be practicing theists than men, and are statistically more likely to profess theism. I'm not certain of the rest of the world, but based on what I believe to be the answer to the OP, I suspect it is similar in most countries with patriarchal monotheist religions.
Women have different genetic interests than men, and this translates into different behavior patterns. Genes use emotions to elicit behaviors, so naturally we would expect a different emotional profile for women than men. Anyone who's ever dated someone of the opposite sex knows that this is true. Men and women have different emotional behavior patterns, on average.
Remembering that our emotions and behaviors were shaped mostly by our ancestral environment,* we observe that birthing and rearing a child requires significant resources that are very difficult for a single woman to obtain without help. This help would come primarily from kin groups, but as this strategy became more and more successful, it would likely evolve into a larger strategy of community reciprocation, including people who were not direct kin.
Women's tendency to become emotionally attached to "support groups" for lack of a better term seems to reflect the necessity of procuring and sustaining large pools of resources that can be "donated" to the raising of a child. Men, on the other hand, spend the majority of their time trying to separate themselves from the field of competition by proving themselves to be a better resource procurer than the other men. Rather than arranging pools of support, they are trying to demonstrate that they can be a resource pool. Thus, women will tend to build groups and men will tend to demonstrate their separation from the group.
A disclaimer is necessary. Men are famously good at forming coalitions of men for the purpose of acquiring more resources. However, we need to recognize that each man in such a group is generally pushing for as much individual success as possible, and he will only join such groups when it is obvious that it will be of more personal benefit than striking out on his own. Women seem to gravitate towards support groups as an end more than a means.
With all this in mind, it would follow that organized religion would be very attractive to women. Not only is it a permanent extended family, one of its stated goals is the support of its members. (Whether this is often practiced is another question.) Furthermore, most religions promise some kind of super-power support, whether it's prayer to a god, or the power of group psychic abilities, or anything else.
For men, on the other hand, there is only one widely available benefit to being in a religion -- women. Once a man has got a wife, it does him little good to keep going to church, and it probably doesn't do him much good to tithe regularly, for there is little else for him to gain. There are very few positions of social or financial advancement in a church. Most of the members are just members, with the same status as anyone else. We would expect men to attend church enough to make their wives happy, and to maintain what social status they have, but we would expect them to care a lot more about their job outside the church.
* Watcher, this is a shout to you. Despite the recent realization that humans are evolving quite rapidly, I've seen no evidence that we aren't primarily dominated by ancient emotional patterns. Quite the contrary, in fact. It appears that immense civilizations are still rather opposed to many of our individual instincts.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
I don't have a theory, but here is my personal situation:
My wife and I are both atheists. She is not as outspoken because she doesn't see the point, she just doesn't see that it will make any difference. In the same way she doesn't really care about space exploration and hugely expensive physics projects, she just thinks they are a huge waste of money on something that won't change our lives significantly any time soon. she is also not really convinced on evolution, it's not that she believes in any alternative, she just doesn't care where we came from (once again, it's the immediate relevance thing). I'm a consumate scientist, so I love all knowledge for the sake of knowledge, but I respect her views.
The other reason is that she is much more worried about repercussions from religious nuts (and the general social repercussions) than me.
Zen-atheist wielding Occam's katana.
Jesus said, "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division." - Luke 12:51
Ronin, I don't know if you've noticed, but your situation fits my theory. Your wife is unconcerned with things that impress chicks. I bet if you listed all the people involved in all the big science projects you like, you'd find mostly men. That's because men are the ones with the vested interest in proving to women that they're very smart, and capable of being a good resource pool. Your wife is, however, very concerned with the immediate social ramifications of religion. Religious nuts are attempting to drive wedges in social networks, and since atheists are in a vast minority, this is an immediate threat to her ability to form lasting social bonds with lots of people.
I'm not saying that this logic is necessarily part of the conscious motivation of you, your wife, or any of the people working on building rockets. I'm saying that we don't need to be aware of it. It's the logic of genes trying to get humans to reproduce successfully. Our complicity is important -- not our understanding.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Women have been slaves , have they not ? 1920 got to even finally vote .... finally birth control in the 60''s ..... basically yesterday .....
Sheeezz , "the wild human animal kingdom" .... go consciousness evolution ! Hey boys, no need to enslave the girls.
Hey girls , me so sorry .... I am on your side , me a humble embarrassed man ....
Caring girls, tame the boys, the time is now .... the past is but a lesson to us all, that can see ....
Atheism Books.
Hamby, I think you have a good point.
The more fundamental issue is libertarianism. Historically women were indeed subjugated by patriarchy. And yet today, libertarian women like the one who co-runs this website are not only disliked by the rightwing religious conservatives but also the ideologically bound leftwing anti-porn feminists ie. the ones who claim to be liberating women. In such a milieu, I am not surprised that there aren't a lot of women like Kelly and therefore not many like minded atheist women.
I don't know how much of it is social engineering versus hardwiring as per Hamby, but a lot of women have a tendency to aggregate into collectives adhering (sometimes to a fanatical degree) to inflexible rules which govern personal behaviors, belief systems and morality. And often it is women who are the most critical of women who break the rules when they behave "unfeminist" or are unbelievers.
Yeah.... and with the world pop. at 6.7 billion headed for 7b by 2015, and nearly 9b by 2050, it's probably time for us to begin complying just a little less.
=
Tee-hee
I think that Hamby is spot-on here. Men are typically more likely to be what is termed S-brained, or systematizing types, while women are more likely to be E-brained, or empathic types. Personally, I have always gotten along better with males, and although I love being a woman and feel "feminine" (not in that "Please Sir, Help me!" way, but more like the "You know you want me" way), I don't like most women or their behavior. Like how they get together in these little gaggles of high-pitched yelping about somebody's nail polish. *rolls eyes*
Maybe I'm more empowered by being a woman than most because I've understood from early on that I am in a position of power being the scarcer biological resource. So give me all your money to try to impress me, k? Maybe it will work.
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i feel more comfortable around men myself. although i attribute that to the fact that i was an automotive technician prior to the wheelchair which is a male dominated field.
It's pretty well known that I am a "nature causes nurture" advocate, so I tend to think that the social norms are reinforcements of unconscious genetic drives. In other words, women really do have a biological tendency to form gossip gaggles and men really do have a biological tendency to be CEOs. However, I need to make it really clear that our genes do not program us to make a bullrush straight to our genetic destiny of CEO. They create the strong tendency to do so when the environment allows it.
Our genes have essentially given us a template with which to build our personalities. Environment is clearly a huge part of development, but it's important to realize that "environment" for humans is human constructed. That is, society is our environment, and we formed societies because that's what our genes told us to do. So it's true that society is largely to blame (or credit) for the libertarian leanings of progressive women, and it's also to blame or credit for the generally uncompetitive nature of most women in the workplace. Society formed the way it did because the sexual division of labor worked. The sexual division of labor still works, but it's complicated horribly by the very un-ancestral environment we've created. We could say that our genes have led us to create a society that our genes did not prepare us for. (This, of course, fits the theory of natural selection perfectly, for evolution can only look backwards -- never forwards. We would be terribly surprised if we were genetically prepared for modern society!)
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
interesting hamby. you know, the two larger atheist groups here both have women's group spinoffs. i went to two of the meetings just to see - yeah, gossip circle and fashion talk. also, the older, married women telling me which of the guys they think i should hook up with.
And let me guess... in the main groups, there are one or two men who are always griping that the groups aren't doing enough. They want to stop all the talking and get some projects going. Right?
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
This is a purely anecdotal opinion, but my experience is that women tend to be more inclined to follow rules and established practices. As a child they always seemed to be the ones to cite the teachers or schools rules. I had an experience with this as a barista at Starbucks (a predominantly female occupation) where I was constantly in trouble with the management for exercising my own judgment in areas where the manual was either sketchy or it's rules weren't suited to the situation. I think this also explains why so many women are intent on following the rules of the road to the letter such as observing the speed limit or stop lights and signs to the point of actually violating other laws like slow moving vehicles keeping right, or right turns being "free".
Questioning or defying the beliefs they were raised with seems to go hand in hand with this.
"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon
Nothing this hard should taste so beefy.
No way! I studied auto tech and formerly held two ASE certs (engine repair and performance and brakes) and my state inspection license. Woot for women who know what an EGR valve is!
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I agree that women are generally more likely to conform. Thank Jake I'm not one of them. Observing the speed limit? I try not to double it. (I'm completely velocitized.)
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wow - small world. i have a-6 and a-7 (electronics and hvac) which are still valid. my va emissions inspection cert expired in 2005.
Hear hear! And woot for men who don't (I.E, me)
Well I was born an original sinner
I was spawned from original sin
And if I had a dollar bill for all the things I've done
There'd be a mountain of money piled up to my chin
perhaps... i really don't know - i usually stick to my little corner where all the cool people are. you know, where the bar is.
I'm totally clueless about anything mechanical. I wouldn't be able to change the oil or a tire if my life depended on it.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
Ditto. I can fix a bicycle, but that's because I like them better than cars.
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
An enthusiastic high five to you, my good Miss.
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
I love women who break the gender stereotypes. My favorite thing in the whole world is girl musicians (not singers, but playing an instrument). Especially girl bass players and drummers. Rrrww! (that <-- is supposed to be a purr, by the way).
And I don't exactly find it sexy, but I have a tremendous amount of respect for men who do the same, break the stereotypes I mean. Like stay at home dads, for example.
It works best if they remain feminine in all other respects though (or masculine in the case of men). I have respect for a butch girl drummer, or a metro stay at home dad too, but they are more like people trapped in the wrong body to me, especially if they are homosexuals. I admire them only in the way I'd admire a person in their line of work that is of the gender they are emulating.
Well I was born an original sinner
I was spawned from original sin
And if I had a dollar bill for all the things I've done
There'd be a mountain of money piled up to my chin
Preaching to the choir. Girl drummers are pretty much my weakness.
... but then, I'm a drummer, so I guess it makes sense.
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
Nik, sometimes I actually sit down on the toilet when I take a leak ( urinate )...does that count for breaking gender stereotypes ?
I think that just counts as being really, freaking lazy.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
Hahahahaha! That's brilliant! I do that too! Ever caught any flak for it? I mean people calling you girly because of it? Then maybe we can start a supportgroup
Well I was born an original sinner
I was spawned from original sin
And if I had a dollar bill for all the things I've done
There'd be a mountain of money piled up to my chin
So....Kelly or Shelley... What's up with these @#&%! Ford EGR sensors. Love my truck but I replace more of these in my F-150 than I care to count. I don't hear much about the other auto makers having similar problems to my extent. Would you happen to know, is the Ford system config very different from the rest ???
In situations like that I just stand up and hose them down !!! ...although if they try to run away it is kind of hard to chase them down with my pants around my ankles
To be Atheist is to be bold and daring, a masculine trait, not feminine. The female is weaker and a follower most of the time. What a bunch of sheep shit huh !?!
Up to the ears. Pure unsubstantiated speculative nonsense. Great for the garden.
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
I'm turned off by the lack of technical prowess displayed by most female musicians, at least within the world of rock and mainstream music. They seem to all aspire to make poppy, punky garbage.
Some chicks that are phenomenal musicians though: AdrianConner , JessicaLurie (The rest of the band are fucking amazing too.), and NekoCase (I can't vouch for her technical ability but she's an awesome song writer and I want to have sex with her voice.)
Edit: Here's a better link for JessicaLurie.
"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon
Nothing this hard should taste so beefy.
I underlined the probable cause of your problem above.
A family member of mine was once told by something of an authority to never, ever buy a Ford. The reason I trust this person's judgement in the matter because he was a tow truck driver. I think most of us know the joke about Ford is actually an acronym for "Found On Road, Dead".
I once did an informal count of side-of-the-highway abandoned cars on the stretch of I-75 bewteen Nashville and Atlanta. 90% of them were American models (no, I didn't do the manufacturer breakdown; just American vs non). Now, I don't know what percentage of the cars on the road in the Southeastern US are American, but I'm willing to bet it's lower than 90%.
--
maybe if this sig is witty, someone will love me.
Anyone that likes female drummers, go check out percussionist Evelyn Glennie. She rocks my socks.
Then listen again, knowing that she's deaf.
--
maybe if this sig is witty, someone will love me.
I just don't understand why you would forgo the manly blessing of being able to aim.
"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon
Nothing this hard should taste so beefy.
i didn't answer your question because (nothing personal wonko) the 'what's wrong with my car' questions are a pet peeve of mine... not because i mind people asking for advice but because i feel uncomfortable giving out any kind of diagnosis without seeing the vehicle.
that being said, i don't know of any sort of widespread ford egr value problem... however you didn't mention what year your vehicle is - i did major in emissions, specifically, and was trained on ford and gm pretty much exclusively. i graduated in 2005. so, yeah - maybe i've been out of the field too long to have heard current rumors but i'd hope your shop has checked for recall information.
It's the South. Conservative America loves it's Ford's and Chevy's no matter what.
"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon
Nothing this hard should taste so beefy.
Could be worse. This drummer is fighting an even bigger handicap these days!
(I love the closing line ...)
I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy
Yup, heard that one. But my Ford t'aint Found on Road, Dead and it 'aint Fix or Repair Daily.... my Ford is "First on Race Day"
No, no recall on the EGR. I did find the answer. The Ford design is different than the other auto makers. Apparently, for whatever reason, a blend of air mixed with actual exhaust is piped through to where the sensor is located. Must be the exhaust that gums up fairly quickly.... but I'd need to inquire further to be sure. Thanks, anyway.
I used to work with a guy who owned a little Ford Ranger. According to him they're built with a redundancy system that allows it to burn any unused fuel in the exhaust. It's supposed to help with efficiency and emmissions.
"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon
Nothing this hard should taste so beefy.
ah, you were talking about design. i thought you were asking about part specific problems. should have read closer - sorry. yet another reason why i'm not into diagnosing problems over the internet... i never was into picking up on customer's differing language uses.
Yo ladies...I totally kick ass at the drums...in Rock Band. Yeah--you're jealous of my expert drumming ability. Just admit it.
As far as the EGR valve goes, I think you're a little confused Wonko. You are likely replacing the oxygen sensor because of a problem with the EGR valve. Every car made in the last 25 years has an EGR valve, which stands for Exhaust Gas Recirculation, and essentially its function is to pump a portion of your exhaust gases back into the combustion chamber for increased fuel burning efficiency. It also has the effect of lowering the combustion chamber temperature by about 500 degrees. If your EGR valve is malfunctioning, the oxygen sensor would be triggered to the presence of too much O2 causing a fuel mixture that is too rich--resulting in poor performance, lowered MPG, uneven idling, etc. With too much O2 present in the exhaust, the car will send more gas into the combustion chamber assuming that there isn't enough to properly burn all of the available O2. It's a vicious cycle of one small malfunction causing several problems.
Now tell me how much you love me. Now damnit!!
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Hi Kelly,
Yes I'm confused but only thanks to my mechanic. He's the one that keeps telling me it's the, "EGR sensor gone bad again". In the language of my land...I'm a gonna remind em it's called th' oxygen sensor, next time I see um.
I can tell by your post you are light years ahead of him on this and thanks so much for the explanation and I do ...this much
Now, lemme see jes how much fun th spellchek has with this post.
Another question is why are there so many more committed Christian women than Christian men. You can read the statistics here.
http://www.churchformen.com/allmen.php
I was part of the whole Promise Keeper/Men's ministry thing when I was a fundy. Many churches have changed their message to try to correct the disparity. My theories.
1. Sexual repression/purity. You'll rarely meet a man, even in Christian circles that would brag about his virginity or sexual purity. You'll find tons of Christian women willing to do so. Christians have hijacked the concept of monogamy and demonized atheists as sexually immoral. Sexual promiscuity is something men brag about and women avoid for fear of being labeled as 'loose'.
2. Christianity has hijacked the concept of family values. Women generally take on more responsibility in raising children. They view church as a support group and a way to instill 'values' into children.
3. Women's intelligences seems to be more linguistic and musical/rhythmic, men's more logical mathematical and scientific. Churches use clever language, speaking rhythms and emotional music but no logic and science. This approach seems to work better on women than men.
I agree with what Hamby wrote. But then why does the religion of Islam not have the gender gap as does Christianity? Any theories?
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
Never mind EGR valves - can anyone fix the formatting on this thread? I'm already up to three screens in addition to my laptop in a line across the table just to read a sentence from beginning to end without scrolling like a gerbil on speed to do so.
I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy
I'll vouch for Kelly. She is a badass Rock Band drummer.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism