How did Canada become more atheist?
Offline I'm a Canadian citizen and have been residing in the United States since the early 1990s. As a child growing up in the 70s, I recall students in my elementary school saying the Lord's prayer every morning. After scoring high on a quiz, I was given a pop-up nativity book at Christmas. The whole community where I lived revolved around the church. It was church, church and more church.
And now, Canada is passing through an age of enlightenment with close to 20% of the population declaring themselves as atheist. And yet culturally there is very little differences between Americans and Canadians. Canadians love the same type of music and television. Canadians shop at the same stores as Americans (eg. Best Buy, Walmart). The only difference I see is that Canada has universal healthcare and drop dead gorgeous French Canadian women. The day to day life of Canadians and Americans is not very different. So why are Americans far more religious?
I have duel citizenship and I have long term plans to return to Canada to retire or sooner if the fundies get their way here in the US.
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long ago, we... the canadians, had to make a choice... that would change the fate of our country...
Excess booze, or excess god...
I think we made the right choice
What Would Kharn Do?
It's the healthcare. Since people can't afford it here, they've turned to divine intervention. Beats voting for someone you couldn't have a beer with.
"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon
Nothing this hard should taste so beefy.
Well.....
Heave hi!! Heave hi ho!!! The best man in Ottawa was Mufferaw Joooooeeeeee!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gy3knGGzZr8
I've often wondered if the US is more religious than Canada. I think America is full of cultural christians but the few that are actually faithfull to their beliefs is on the decline. Go to any church on Superbowl Sunday and see what I mean. If you don't value your relationship with your god more than football then I would insist you are just a cultural christian.
The US has always been a pretty religious contry since it's founding, but the politicians have been using religion as a wedge issue for decades. I just find that they use these issues to divide us rather than actually do their jobs. If we are busy fighting amongst ourselves it's easier to kick back in congress. The whole gay marriage thing is a great example. Who cares if their god doesn't recognize their marriage. Everyone in America is given equal rights under the law. However, this becomes an issue when it's convenient to distract the populace. Hope that doesn't sound like a conspiracy rant.
In summary, I don't believe most Americans are any more religious than Canadians. Most Americans can't even tell you the 10 commandments in order so that should explain something.
"Always seek out the truth, but avoid at all costs those that claim to have found it" ANONYMOUS
Pot is legal too...... right? <GRINS> at the right choice indeed.
"Always seek out the truth, but avoid at all costs those that claim to have found it" ANONYMOUS
I totally agree. Not to sound like a partisan but I think it's mostly a Republican strategy. They are routinely on the weaker side of any issue whether it's the environment, healthcare, or foriegn policy. They can't argue the issues so they use fear, character attacks and social hot buttons to maintain their power. If they ran strictly on the issues their would be no Republican party.
"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon
Nothing this hard should taste so beefy.
are 2 things here, there really isn't a seperation of church and state per se, now there is the charter of rights that state
Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:
- a) freedom of conscience and religion;
- b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication;
- c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and
- d) freedom of association.
and I believe as canadians we truely believe in this fundamental rights and freedoms and follow it, in a sense it is the corner stone of a free and democratic society that everyone believes and follows the charter of rights. Which truthfully is kinda different than the states where society at large believes that your not truely an american if you don't believe in a god....perferably the christian god. I believe this is caused mainly due to the seperation of church and state has caused religious right to make it a business per se.The other thing is that as a society, canadians have been pushed not to be assimilated (which has it's pros and cons), as such we have grown up with lots of different religions, and philisophical views and at the same time, at least I didn't feel this way, that we were being pushed towards a specific religion or views. But that's my take, there is most likely more historical parst as well, regarding how england treated us vs the US etc, etc, etc.
I'm not sure where in America's life span we went wrong, but the separation of church and state as it's spelled out in the Constitution is about as explicit as the rights you stated for Canadians. Part of the problem we have is that theists being theists, they tend to misinterpret things either accidentally or intentionally. A common argument is that the term "Freedom of religion" doesn't mean "freedom from religion". They take the Henry Ford approach to faith. You can have any religion you want as long as it's Christian.
"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon
Nothing this hard should taste so beefy.
Since it's generally colder and snows more in most of Canada compared to most of the US it's likely Canadians probably ran out of reading material at some point over a really bad winter. They had nothing else to read and actually read the entire King James Version of the Bible. The next Spring a sudden spike in atheism occurred.
As many Southern States never get trapped by snow and it's generally warmer it is less likely to be trapped with nothing to read but the Bible. The population being dispersed such as it is would reduce the amount of people trapped indoors. Thus in New York and Michigan this may occur but it's not likely in Florida and California. In Florida we prepare Hurricane kits including battery powered TV when we get trapped indoors. Since hurricanes are an imminent danger generally one watches continuously the TV reporters getting blown around instead of becoming desperate and reading fantasy books such as the Bible.
The only other possibility is Canadians are more rational and intelligent than Americans. Nah!
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
I'm not a historian like Rook is, but I think you hit on something in regards to the Henry Ford approach. I've read quite a bit about the period of history when Henry Ford was most active, and much of what he did at the time was fundamentalist in nature. Large numbers of religious scams had their basis in that same period. the Pentecostal movement was foremost, as was Billy Graham. The impression I got from reading history books was that much new technology was being made, and the old money elites, and to some degree, the new money elites were perceiving that as a threat and so took steps to "reach out" to people who would be "lead astray" by these new, "evil" technologies, and so funded theologians and preachers to spread the word before things such as radio and movies got to the average joe. This is my opinion, so feel free to dissect it and point out where I might be right and where I am wrong, just don't attack me.
Vote for McCain... www.therealmccain.com ...and he'll bring Jesus back
I think a lot of it is to do with the difference in the systems in which religions are exercised. In America, because of the separation of church and state and the tax exempt status of religious organisations, a free market of religion arose. It is highly visible in America (although I've never been, I have seen a fair amount of American TV) with billboards and huge churches. It is best to think of American churches as businesses all competing of customers (believers). Markets create growth by their very nature, and this is no exception.
Now in the UK, and I assume Canada is also similar there is a state religion (Am I right in assuming it's Church of England given that we have the same monarch?). People are not expected to follow the state religion, but because historically there has been no separation from the state, no sizable market situation has arisen from the laws relating to religious freedom because they were seen more as the freedom to practice religion rather than the freedom to convert everyone in sight.
One other thing I note in the UK, which is clearly not true of Canada is that virtually nowhere in the UK is remote with the exception of the Highlands and Islands of Scotland. People are never far from a large town, so they are always exposed to new ideas. Isolated communities however like in the US will be more likely to only come across the ideas that have become accepted within their community and thus anything else is a threat to their way of life. Easy communication has led to the rapid spread of new ideas within the UK. Whereas in the US it has been much harder for new ideas to spread (something that the progress of telecommunications will no doubt change). Also, because religious freedom to the UK (and I assume Canada also) has been focussed on individuals rights to make up their own mind, and the lack of a strong market force, people are less pressured into their religious beliefs.
Atheist Books
I can think of 3 things that lead to a country being religious all are important
1) Geography or more importantly population density. People who live near to each other tend to moderate their beliefs as they have to get on with neighbours that may be radically different to themselves. If you can create a town with fellow believers no such moderation takes place
2) Economy : Wealthier nations tend to be less religious BUT see point 3
3) Fear (Welfare State)
People who are scared of getting ill or of losing their jobs wil in most countries expect a safety net (a welfare state that they have paid for) where no such safety net exists they look for the ultimate one - immortality and a sky daddy with unlimited resources
I postulate that the reason America is religious is due to points 1 and 3
And to answer the OP, see Church of England. Canadians are to religion as the British are: disillusioned.
BigUniverse wrote,
"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."
My theory is when Canadians hear the descriptions of Hell being an extremely hot place, where the fire never ends, to someone living through Canadian winter, it sounds more like a vacation spot than a place to fear. (Pretty warm there, eh?)
I think it more a case of birds of a feather of flocking together. There are pockets of secularism in America like San Francisco, Seattle. Fundamentalism got entrenched in the south during the era of slavery and racism when the bible was used to justify cruel treatment of slaves and racism. The ironic thing is that religion was then used as an opiate for the blacks deal with the pain of their mistreatment.
Fundamentalism is still used today to appeal to the worst elements in people. It's just part of the red neck culture now.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
There's definitely something to be said for that. Progressive ideas and views definitely spread through contact and the larger cities of America are proof of that. Another problem is that in these small towns people only seem to get what's fed to them on t.v. (Pre-internet at least.) or from their friends. Unfortunately people seem to take what they hear first no matter how inaccurate it is.
"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon
Nothing this hard should taste so beefy.
That's part of the problem too. I'm not sure if religion was the first to exploit politics or if it's the other way around, but it's been an incredibly convenient way to motivate a voting block and in the case of the Republicans goes hand in hand with fearmongering campaigns.
I'm of the opinion that there are two tiers to the Republican party. The first tier is made up of working class conservatives who truly and deeply believe. The second tier is made up of the filthy rich and "fiscal" conservatives who manipulate the faith and fears of the first tier. Once in office we start to see the second tier cast the electorate aside and help themselves, occasionally putting on stage shows such as the emergency session to "save" Terri Schaivo to keep up appearances.
"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon
Nothing this hard should taste so beefy.
My two cents:
The U.S. is a relatively young (and naive) Capitalist country which accumulated great wealth at a very fast pace.
That kind of rapid wealth requires strong methods of manipulatation to ensure that the bulk of all that money & power remain focused on furthering those Capitalist ideals & in the hands of the select who run the Capitalist society.
Religion is a powerful tool of manipulation that easily assimilates into a Capitalist society, "supposedly" based on a Democracy. Manipulation, when implemented correctly can be as/more powerful than many blatant methods of coercion.
Big $$ = greater need for manipulation.
Religion is perhaps the most effective tool of manipulation for this country.
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
George Orwell
Its actually a myth that America is a younger country compared to others . The UK where I come from is barely older than the US. Our act of union was 1707 joining England and Scotland (Wales hasnt really be a self governing nation for a long long time). Sure people lived in the UK for a long time before it formed but not as a nation.
Germany and Italy I believe are well under 200 years old, not sure about France but its not 'ancient' by any standards.
No nation in Africa is more than a century old
South American nations are roughly US aged
China is ancient, you could argue the USSR was just the Russian empire
India/Pakistan 20th century creations (they simply werent single countries per the British empire)
Oldest European Nation is Iceland which being an island in the middle of ocean makes sense
Unless 1707 is a typo that would technically be older than the U.S.
As far as when a central government coalesced to embody certain ideals, America didn't create the constitution until 1786, and it wasn't ratified until 1788.
"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon
Nothing this hard should taste so beefy.
The UK is older than the US but not by much, most nations are under a single handful of centuries old.
The whole concept of the Nation state really only became viable with improvements in transport and technology. Before that it was effectively small independent areas that were very loosely linked if at all
The US didn't even declare independence from Britain until 1776.
Oh, the horror! Oh, there's more to the story. I was ready to send a donation!
Don't stop at the French Canadian women. Toronto has the world. Think Tibet, baby. I was living in Parkdale when the Dalai Lama visited, and he brought something like 100 women with him, and they ended up moving into the area. Over-the-top gorgeous, and living in my apartment building. It was pretty much the greatest.
Hold on just a second. I think you've forgotten about something. First, we're not American. There's nothing wrong with being American - that's not what I'm saying. You live there, so you probably know. I spent lots of time in the states when I was a kid, and there's something about being American. You have to be American all the time. It's like a pressure to represent the country. Flags fucking everywhere, and "patriotism" functioning as a real word for something that you do.
You know that shit doesn't happen in Canada. We don't have to be all things Canadian, there's no pressure. We couldn't bomb anyone if we wanted, either, and most of Europe thinks we're awesome. So that patriotism pressure isn't there at all.
Now why would the US be okay with Canada? Because we clean up with a quarter of the budget and a third of the men. I'm looking at you, Afghanistan. Pull your socks up.
Oh just move. The food's better up here, for one thing (except, of course, at Hamby's restaurant, which is no doubt delicious).
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
The UK in it's current form actually dates back to 1922 with the independence of most of Ireland. Before 1922 we were called the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, whereas now it reads the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Even before the Union, England had only existed as a unified country for about 700 years (making that about 1,000 now).
Germany was formed about 1870, formally split in two in about 1949 and reformed after the Cold War ended in 1990. You could argue it is only 18 years old.
With France it has taken various forms. The most recent form (The 5th Republic) has only been around since the 1950s). If we are to go from the revolution then it is an equal age to America roughly. But of course France as a country has been around for many centuries.
Anyway, I think we're getting off the point a little bit.
Atheist Books
The original topic was --Canadians are more secular then Americans-- My personal opinion is massive population differences, more fundies can make louder noise and more talking head apperences. Pols have to keep the numbers and the noise in mind when they run for election. Secularist have got to start making more noise!
An article in todays Newspaper (T.O. Sun aug.6) is enlightening on the topic.
http://www.torontosun.com/News/Canada/2008/08/06/6364086-sun.html
I hope this link works my 9-year-old computer sciences advisor is with his grandparents today.
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
If you want to get technical, the US was only in it's current form since 1959 with the addition of Alaska and Hawaii as states.
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The religion and politics both exploit the ignorant with fear mongering. Sometimes they find it convenient to partner with one another. The liberal democrats are just as bad as republicans/Christians. They use fear to get people dependant on government with false promises just as religion uses false promises.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
I would say it's a considerably more Republican thing to do. Of the things that Democrats might exercise scare tactics over such as education and healthcare, I have seen first hand the effects of our inadequate system. I would have to say that at least they're trying to scare us on matters of greater importance and in ways that are typically more factual. Take the current presidential campaign. There is a stark contrast between what McCain has to say about himself (almost nothing) and what he has to say about Obama (much of it lacking in veracity). Obama on the other hand talks more about what he's going to do than he does how stupid the other guy is. When he does respond to McCain's attacks he follows up with a positive message about his platform. McCain's platform is almost exclusively based on fear and negativity. Always pointing out one idea or another won't work and offering as an alternative the same policies that have gotten us into this mess.
"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon
Nothing this hard should taste so beefy.
In Canada it is Catholicism, well in Ontario it is, however because like in England, everyone knew about, knows people that went to catholic schools (and i know I a fair amount of girls that went to them to) it's just part of it of growing up it was always just there. We learned about it, either from family or friends, and we saw the hypocrisy of it all as well. Then of course growing up with other religions, like Hindu, Judaism, and Islam we have learned about both sides (again in Ontario I am talking about here) it was never a business thing like in the US were it really is more like a business, trying to get believers to come in via any means possible.
As well, even though Canadians share a lot in common with Americans, our differences are quite large. I think the biggest one comes in the form of gun control, we are not as gun happy as Americans per se, sure we have guns and rifles, but our attitudes behind them are different. Our government is different, and of course our lifestyles are different, while Americans are bigger is better (bigger houses, bigger cars, bigger wheels, bigger debts) Canadians it's more about the quality of life, we have less debt, make more money and tend to go out more often, (I figure a bigger house means more heating bills up here
).
They are politicians, they'll say whatever they have to say to get elected. They take advantage of people naivety and lack of skeptical thinking just as pastors do.
When Oboma talks about what he's going to do, where does he plan to get the money to do it? He's as full of shit as any politician. No one will take a rational approach on the role of government, most everyone wants a sugar daddy government just like they want a sugar daddy god. Until this additude this changes, people will get the government they deserve.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
There's something to be said for our tendency to resist things that are forced on us.
So is it true what they say? Do catholic school girls "rule"?
"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon
Nothing this hard should taste so beefy.
Agreed.
Any government that is any good at all is essentially a "sugar daddy government", providing the protection and support an individual can't provide for themselves. The alternative is living alone in the woods or living under a regime in which the public gives and receives nothing in return.
"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon
Nothing this hard should taste so beefy.
Well their easy and quite willing to do anything.....and if they are irish catholics....even dirtier...but rule naw. Their just easier to get into bed....but that's my experience, I wouldn't marry one....couldn't trust them.
I hooked up with a Mexican chick once. I don't know if she went to a Catholic school, but she was definitely Catholic. She fucked me with an enthusiasm only a couple of white girls have been able to muster. Quoth the Lord "And it was good".
"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon
Nothing this hard should taste so beefy.
I think Protestantism and Catholicism are split right down the middle as far as market share in Ontario is concerned. At least from what I remember from working with 2001 census data. 35 or 36% each, with "no affiliation" being something like 15%.
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
what is nice is that most of the bigger TV personalities are atheists or neutral on the whole religious debate. For example George Stombo, even had Dawkins on his show, The Hour on CBC, although he played it very neutral with Dawkins, no real hard questions, not really playing either side, admits to be a cultural christian but doesn't believe in god or in religion and finds it funny and ignorant when he does attend church (he's greek and attends pretty much only for easter and christsmas, and he admits it even rarely these days, out of family pressure) how preachers go on about gays (this occurred this past easter) and don't talk about the actual event or holiday they supposed to be talking about. It's what he called irrelevant these days. Same goes for many of the news presenters, many of the VJ's on much music, some that I have had the pleasure of meeting, many of our musicians are pretty neutral or atheistic about religion. I think it's our culture really, I mean we have seen how the french where with religion....and we all know how the rest of Canada feels about the quebecers at times....especially back in the 70's and 80's and early 90's. These days I like to think we are at better terms with our french brethren, but still they have had the largest drop in religious affiliation (going to church) than the rest of Canada since the 70's...it's been in a drastic decline, and they have a higher rate of common law marriages, many opting out of marriage altogether.